Transcript
I wish I had been there more for my mom because I remember her crying a lot, and of course, I was very sad. But it was in private, but I talked to a health professional mental health professional and she said, JT, you were a kid. Yeah, that was not your job to be there for your parents. And boy, that took the chains of Christmas past off my shoulders. Yeah. Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Living in Adoption Land. I'm your host, Brian Elliott. This is the podcast I wish I had before I started my journey more than 20 years ago. I explore the world of adoption, from positive stories to stories about heartbreak, trauma and sometimes even a lifetime of hidden pain. There are more than 500000 kids in the foster care system today waiting to find a home, while infertility rates are at their highest in history, not to mention the pain of a child or parents search for biological family, only to discover they don't want to be found. We'll also talk about the DNA science that is coming for your family secrets, the complexities, controversy and casualties in the multibillion dollar unregulated business of babies. All right, let's get into it. Hey, I'm Brian Elliott, welcome to another episode of Living in Adoption Land. Today I'm here with JT JT. Welcome. Hello. Hello. If you're in your car, flash your lights. If you're at work, drum on your desk and if you're still in bed, dance on your back. This is hit songwriter G. Harding strike up the band. I'm on living in adoption land, so I usually ask my guests, What is it like living in adoption land? Brian, that's an incredible question for me. It's terrifying to think of if I wasn't living in adoption land because I feel like I won the lottery of life when I was adopted. And I don't even want to daydream of where I might have ended up, or maybe staying with a couple that that couldn't take care of me. So, you know, I was adopted at birth and my last name is Harding, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. So I just feel incredibly lucky and my parents, Larry Kandahari, and gets confusing the people that adopted me, my family. They were giant sports fanatics. You know, my dad caught a touchdown in the Rose Bowl and he worked for ESPN. And, you know, I wanted to crawl inside MTV my whole life and they just encouraged me, you know, and I was hairspray ing my hair and I'm wearing crazy clothes. And they always just encouraged me. So I once again, I just feel really, really lucky. Yeah. Well, let's break it down a little bit. For people who don't know your story, your bio dad is Jay Thomas. Yes. Yes, I found that out many years later. For anyone you know, under 40, you're saying, Who's that? He was on Cheers and Murphy Brown. He would throw the football every year at the meatball on top of the Christmas tree on David Letterman. And I met him years later, so he was a as far as I know, kind of an overnight college DJ trying to break into radio. And he and these girls would be calling you up and giggling and dancing around their sorority house. And one girl was calling all the time and Jay would start playing songs for her over the radio. And they kind of fell in love that way and they ended up having me. I mean, it's shocking. I'm not as big as Elvis Presley with that kind of, you know, beginning, but you know, they, you know, I just, you know, Jay told me, you know, we loved you enough that we knew we couldn't take care of you. And he had other plans. He wanted to go to New York, and I'm sure it was very, very hard for my biological mother. I don't pretend to know what it was like for her, but I was adopted. And once again, I'm just very lucky. And I met Jay years later and it was, you know, we were like two long lost fraternity brothers, but I would never trade him for the Harding's ever. Of course not. Yeah, that goes without saying, I'm, you know, this show, like we were sort of talking off off air. It's really the show that I wish I had before I started my adoption journey. And what's unique or what's common about adoptees like us is the diversity, the diversity of the story. So like, one person's experience is not another person's right. So some of us have had really great experiences and others tragic, traumatic full of pain, you know, so it's like, you know, snowflakes or it's like fingerprints, or it's like one of a kind, like each one of us has our own journey that we're on. Yeah. And and really, what I hope this show will be is a safe place for people to come. Like you and tell your story and unpack it really for the benefit of others to learn and also maybe see themselves in the mirror, either in your mirror and or my mirror at least has some sort of related ability. And of course, it extends beyond just adoptees. We're talking about parents who have given up kids for adoption or. Individuals or couples who are thinking or consideration of adoption and what that might look like. You know, 20, 30, 40 years down the stream, you know, as they look at us as like, OK, are they functioning adults? Yeah, how did that go? And also, I think they're looking for a little bit of advice. If I absolutely do not adjust your computer, I'm really dressed like this. And I've certainly had a trauma or two not related to adoption. Or we can, you know, get into that. But, you know, some people say like, well, you know, you want to be on stage and you wear these wild clothes. And I'm like, Well, that just comes from, you know, prints, videos and loving Van Halen. But I don't know. Maybe if you look deeper, maybe who knows, maybe because I was adopted, I was like, Hey, maybe I need a little more attention. And for you youngsters tuning in, I didn't have Instagram in junior high, so to show up my clothes, I had to walk to the pencil sharpener twice a cla*s. But so also a lot of parents ask me, they write me on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. Hey, I've adopted a child. I'm so scared they're going to want their original mother years later in my experience. No, not at all. So if you're thinking of adopting a child and listen, I'm not a therapist, I'm just telling you my experience. I mean, I wouldn't trade my parents for anything. It's like it doesn't even enter my mind. So I try to give people that advice. So let's let's underscore that a little bit. So what is the advice exactly? You're saying you should search or oh, so sorry. So a woman, a woman that adopted a little boy, has written me a couple of times and said, Do you think when he is a teenager, he'll wish that he was with his original mother? And I just say, I think, No, not at all. He will see you as his mom, as his superhero, because she's a wonderful lady. Yeah. And so that's my advice. I think parents ask me, Are they going to grow up and wish they weren't with us? But I've I know tons of teenagers that don't like their parents that weren't adopted. So I think I don't think that someone should be concerned about that with adopting a child. I think it's very brave to adopt a child. It must be very kind of scary. What are they and what are we going to get? But it's all love in the end, I think, you know. Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point, maybe for us to kick around again. You know, we're on the same side. We're on the same team. We're both adoptees, right? Yes. But let's just for the sake of, you know, opening up the discussion to this talk about this a little bit, which is the way I would weigh in on that moms question would be to answer her to say, You know what? It sort of depends. It depends because nature is a thing and nurtures a thing. Right. So I'm not sure because I don't have any scientific proof or, you know, research on you personally. But who knows? I mean, if your dad was an entertainer? Mm hmm. Right. And then your adoptive dad was somewhat an entertainer or, you know, in the spotlight or used to being out. That is a both a nurture and nature thing going on at the same time. Yes. So maybe and again, I'm not playing psychologist here either, but perhaps some of the adoption trauma from early on that you may not realize is manifesting in your need for more attention. Perhaps? Perhaps, yeah. And I'm open to that. Yeah, but it could simply also be nature at play that you know your dad is an entertainer and that was passed on to the genes into you. And so you have that, you know, and then your dad was also, you know, throwing touchdowns at the Rose Bowl and, you know, and not a stranger to big audiences. And so maybe you were then sort of became a kin to that and and that was the nurture part of it. And so what I'd say to that mom is, you know, will that child who adopted want to seek out their original biological parents? It depends. It depends a lot on the nurture because that's where you can control. Yes. So if you neglect that child or if there's trauma like, let's say, divorce separation, abuse, other difficult things which are very normal in any sort of dysfunctional family. Yes, it could cause that child to to think, Oh, OK, maybe this is not the best environment environment for me, and I might want to search if I've got options, if I know I've got options. Absolutely. And part two to that, I mean, I know we're jumping into things right away, but I like it. My biological mother, who I don't have a relationship with but is a wonderful woman. She had been looking for me forever. Oh, is that right? Bless her heart. I mean that in the best way. So that's the other side of it to say I didn't have anything missing or a longing. And when I was in school, I was like, you know, telling girls, Hey, you know, Bon Jovi might be my dad. Who knows, you know? I just was having a ball with it. But so that's the other side of it. So an adoptive child, their parent might be looking for them. And so we met and and I just got to tell you so we had talked for a couple of months on the phone, and she said, Hey, I'd like to tell you who your biological father is. And I was like, Oh, and she said, I didn't know. I never knew. OK, wait, so let me pause you and let's go back in the chronology of it. So she was searching for you for a long time. How long had she been? Searching, I believe, for a very long time, and she was talking like a decade, two decades, decade, probably, and she she had paid people to find me that I think lied to her and said, he's going to call you on to me. He's going to call you on your on his 16th birthday. Of course I never called. I was back in Grosse Pointe, Michigan, in the battle of the bands I like had no idea. So I feel bad in that way. I mean, it's not my fault. So she was looking for me and looking for me. OK, so were you. Was your adoption through an adoption agency? Do you know? It was, yes. In Nashville, yes. I don't have any information or anything like that where it was or. Okay, so you don't know much about the agency. All you know is anecdotally through her that the agency told her that you'd probably be contacting her around your, you know, she had hired private detectives to do it. So let that be a warning to people out there. So for over a decade, paying money to people, I found this out all after. And then, you know, in the '90s, computers start coming out and someone contacted me and they said, Hey, your biological mother, you know, is looking for you. And we're wondering, and I just had the little information that I knew. Here's where I was born. Here's what time and a computer just matched us up instantly. And there it was. OK, so I'm just, yeah, piecing this together in my mind, just for the listeners, too. So what you're saying is the investigators or the private detectives that your mom hired were stringing her along, stringing her along completely, completely exploiting her, cheating her out of totally complete jerks? Yes. Giving her empty promises. Absolutely. Just to take her money? Absolutely. So that's the warning. Yeah. I mean, they should be they should be in the record business. Yeah. And then at some point she got wise and she sort of gave up on that and went a different route. So how did she how did you get in touch with that person? Yes. So so I moved out to Los Angeles. I looked on all the back of my CDs and they all said California. For those of you just turning in, I'm a hit songwriter. I wanted to be in the music business. So I go out to Los Angeles and this is a true story. One night, you know, I have like three or four roommates. I'm up late watching TV and there was a commercial like really cheap. And there's a lady on the commercial running down an alley with a fake baby in a blanket, and she looks at the camera and says, Were you adopted? You deserve to know where you were from and this number came up. Is it true? And what year was this? Let's put a time stamp on it. Probably like 1995 96, 1995. OK, so for those of you who are younger, about a year later, the internet was born, actually? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is pre-internet. Yes. Free cell phone. Totally. So I just picked up the phone and dialed the number, and that's what happened. I said, You know, this is my name. I want to give all the detail. This is where I was born. I think at this time I've always known. And because she had been looking for me for so long, her name was already in all sorts of databases and it just went Bing, Bing, Bing, Bing and there was a match. OK. And they called me and they said, We know who she is. We're going to call and they're going to call me, and then that's how we met. That's amazing. So it was this is a paid service. The it's totally free. OK, so this was just some do gooder organization that wanted to connect fans with a really cheap commercial. Yeah. And can I add, I had a friend recently call me and say, Hey, a buddy of mine? And this is I'm trying to give the best advice I can. A buddy of mine found his biological mother over Facebook. He's about to call her because you can call people on Facebook now he's about to start. Do you have any advice? And I said, Hold up, hold up. What are you crazy? You might as well drive by a brick through the window. I said she may be married. She may have a family. She may have. The mother may have not have ever told anyone, you can't just go barging in. And my buddy was like, Oh, that actually some good advice. So his wife wrote a letter to her through Facebook. Yeah, think it's OK if he contacts you? So I definitely recommend that you can't just come knocking on somebody's door and say, you had me years ago, you know, I think one hundred percent endorse. I would cosign that. Yes. Tread lightly. Yes, Brian concurs. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, we were talking about my adoption story and, you know, it's very public because I've shared it and a couple of different episodes, but I'll just kind of repeat it here for those who haven't heard it. That's the advice I wish I had had. Now I did write a letter to my mom and it was it was an exhausting search. It it was happening over 20 years and right around the same time the internet started to kick in was when I started to get traction. And it turned out that, you know, all the cold calling that I did to try and match came up empty, but later found out that my mom was indeed on that list and she had said, Oh no, it's not me. And it was of three or four times that I haven't. But she turned me off the scent very innocently like, Oh, honey, my biological dad said to the woman, It's not mine. I got kidding. I mean, you know, you just don't. You don't know what other people have gone through. And so I'm glad that we can approach this with humor because humor is a great defense mechanism, but also, in all seriousness, for people who are hurting. It's also, you know, it's good to talk about this and just get it off your chest because sometimes again, having the perspective of my bio dad, he had kept it in for a while. But back to the story, I finally did write a letter to my mom and I wrote, kind of in the same spirit that you introduced your story, which is Hamsher. This was tremendously hard. I can't imagine. Probably the hardest thing you've ever had to do. Perfect. And I just want to let you know because I'm a parent now. I would want to know, did I do the right thing? Did I give my little boy to strangers and and are they loving him? Is he OK? And I wanted to just let you know everything turned out great. Like, I have a great life. I have my own family now. I'm thriving and I just want to let you know it worked out. And if you want contact, here's my name, address, phone number, email sent a little picture of our little family. You know, that is great. And then I got that letter back from her and it actually came from her attorney. And it said Mrs. Stewart does does recognize that she's your biological mother but wants no contact. And in fact, this is us putting you on notice. Mr. Elliot, that if you send any further correspondence, we will not hesitate to file a restraining order against you immediately. Yeah, I did not know that story. It's it's hard to hear. It was a sucker punch. Yeah, and I was devastated. I was pissed and I was sad. I was envisioning this hallmark moment. You know, this movie would embrace like, I've been looking for you for all these years. You've been looking for me. And it's like, finally? And then just to get that, yes, not even get an answer from her, but from her attorney. Yeah, was was difficult, difficult. And I didn't even think about these things before I came here to. There's two things I want to add one. A girl from the Boston area wrote me she's a 25. She was adopted and her mother who adopted her is just flabbergasted that she's a curious where she came from. And so to anyone out there that was adopted, no one knows what it's like to feel like you do if they weren't adopted. So I'm looking at the mike like, I'm actually, you know, talking to someone, you have every right to seek out your biological parents. And if and if you're a parent or your friends or your boyfriend or girlfriend or someone doesn't understand that's on them. And I know you don't want to hurt your parents feelings, but if you're curious where you came from, I would say you have every right to search and then to go with your story, Brian. The part two of that is they don't always have happy endings. I have a buddy who sought out his biological father and my buddy's a great guitar player. He was in my band, found out that his biological father was a guitar player as well, and we were playing this big like state fair somewhere headlining. And my guitar player left backstage passes and couldn't wait, and it was going to give the guy a guitar and he lived near that area. He never showed up the biological dad and hasn't written him or anything. And it's just so it's brutal. So sometimes you get really lucky and sometimes it's tough. But once again, if you're adopted and you're curious, I say you have every right to look. That's what I feel. 100 percent. Yeah, yeah. And people will know. People's parents said, you shouldn't be looking for your parents. I didn't even know that happened because my parents were not like that. Yeah, I mean, so let's call that a trigger. Yeah. And I would just say, you know, as someone who's experienced continues to experiences triggers on a regular basis, I'm still I'm still wrestling with my trauma, right? Like so this is one of the things that I've realized over the years is I have a little bit more life experience and that is sometimes I beat myself up and I think I'm a full grown man. JT why am I still bothered by this, right? Yeah, but what I was reminded of from a, you know, mental health professional who's given me a lot of great advice. She said, You know, if you weren't bothered by this, you would be a human, you know? Oh, that's great advice. I mean, this is totally normal reaction or behavior to feel devastated when your biological mother rejects you through her attorney with the threat of a restraining order that's that's called. Yes, it is cold. But I've also tried not to judge because she's obviously, you know, look to the triggers like whatever's triggering. You look to that and like, be curious. I wish someone had given me that advice instead of be angry or be sad, like, be curious. Like, Hmm, that's interesting behavior. Why did she do that and be curious about that? So that curiosity factor has really helped me at least explore the possibilities, which could be some of the following. She's also 100 percent dealt with her own trauma of giving up a child. I can't imagine what that's like. Mm hmm. I mean, as a parent now, I could. Tell you straight up, I would live with my kid in a cardboard box under the freeway. No problem. You know, I would just make it work. Yeah, if I had to beg for money, if I have to work a Starbucks or six. I mean, I would just f**king do it. Yes. And that's because, you know, that's been my experience. So that was not her experience. She was young, 17, too young to have a child so I can make some assumptions. I could have empathy. I can be curious. And that's helped me a lot with processing. I'm not over it. Let's be honest, I'm dancing with it, and sometimes you know it beats me up or it's more of a wrestle. And I get punched again, and other days I'm dancing with them. I have better days, but absolutely, you know, being curious is a great starting point. Yes, definitely. And you never know. You know what you're going to get on the other side? Yeah, yeah. So that sort of brings back full circle to the advice. Absolutely. Don't be ashamed. There's a movie. There's a paramount movie had been like 10 years ago. This movie called Jimmy Neutron. You ever see this movie? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Rob Thomas soundtrack played a show recently in this guy said, Gosh, you're like the grown up drunk Jimmy Neutron. And I wasn't even drinking well, so I heard my leather pants. What I remember about that movie is that the message was basically, you know, leave the past in the past. That's hard to do. Well, it didn't sit well with me, I thought. That's bulls**t. Yeah. No, I'm a songwriter. All I do is just dig up past heartbreak and write about them again. Yeah, you know, my heart's been broken more than the ice cream machine at McDonald's there on La Cienega. Yeah, but it's been great for my songs. But you know, so the answer to that also is it depends like so if you've had a great experience like you did with your parents who are nurturing and loving and gave you, you know, filled your needs? Yes, you know, if that's good, then you probably are not going to need to look elsewhere and do extra stuff. Exactly. And not like it was a cakewalk. They had problems. You know, I thought I would get grounded for sneaking the car out to go downtown and try to meet Prince and whatever else. I mean, it wasn't like we were just sitting at the dinner table smiling every night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would get grounded from the band because I wasn't doing my homework. Of course. Normal stuff. Yeah, normal stuff. Yeah, yeah. But you know, if if you can't leave the past in the past, then you shouldn't. Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I can't. I mean, I can't leave the past in the past myself now. Yeah, I mean, you. I think it's a Star Wars theme, right? I can imagine Luke confronting Darth Vader when Yoda's like you have to confront the darkness. Exactly. Great analogy. And that's what you got to do. You got to go battle Darth Vader in the dark. Yes. And ironically, you know, another adoptee, right? Yes, it's funny. Oh yes, it's funny in a an ironic kind of way. How adoption story, adoption stories permeate media and fictional stories throughout. I mean, they're all over the place, from Harry Potter to Spider-Man to Superman. I mean, if you want to look at religion, you have to look too far than Moses. Yes, exactly. Jesus, Jesus, these are all adoptees guys. Exactly right. That's great. Yes. It's everywhere. Yeah. And yet Pinocchio kind of right? Absolutely. Pinocchio. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so and actually, Pinocchio is a great we could probably riff on Pinocchio for years because Joe Petto, apparently as the adopted father, apparently is trying to fill a whole void in his life and wanted that child. And he didn't really do it very well, did he? It pushed him out. Right. And there's a lot to be learned from some of these stories. But anyway, it permeates our society or our narrative. And yet people who are not adoptive adopted, they're oblivious to it. Yes. And they'll say very not, you know, like innocently leave the past in the past, but it's very damaging, can be damaging advice to those of us who still feel the pain and need literally need to confront our past. And that was my case. I couldn't live in the present until I reconciled my past. I just couldn't leave it up in the air because I, I don't know. I can explain. I need to know. Yeah, it's like it's probably even heavier than this, but it's like anyone listening that doesn't know what it's like. It's like a breakup and like, Well, how can I fall in love with someone else if I don't kind of deal with this? Yeah, I think it's very hard. And my wife was this way for a long time. She didn't understand, and she gave me that bad advice. Leave the past in the past because she saw me hurting, and she thought if I just sort of swept under the carpet that I would be better living in the rearview mirror. And you know, at first I thought, OK, well, there's some that kind of makes sense, but it never really worked out because it was just unresolved and sort of, you know, festering. And so it wasn't until I addressed it that I started to heal. But again, she's oblivious. She has no idea what it's like not to have parents or not to know even your origin story. Like, Exactly what am I? Am Irish? Am I Jewish anti-German? Am I from entertainment blood? You know, does my dad throw touchdowns? Exactly. You know, and that's if you'd seen me on the football field, you would know. Definitely his dad is not a sports guy. Yeah. Well, but you know, just knowing that too is so important from just a human rights standpoint. Totally right. We have the right to know exactly and for your listeners. So check this out. So I move out to Hollywood. I'm living in an apartment with four guys talking to my biological mother. This is all true. And she said, I want to tell you who your biological father is, and I can just tell in her voice that she was telling the truth. And she said, What year is this? She's just like a few months after we met. OK, so right after. Yeah, so she just we talked on the phone for like two months and it was a blast. Yeah. And I told my parents and we would talk on the phone a lot. And she said he's not like other people. Now I'm trying to be polite here on this podcast, but that makes your mind go, what? I mean, what does it make you think your dad, Superman? Yeah, yeah. I think that's yeah, you're a positive outlook. Yeah. I was like, You know, I'm just going to be honest, what was it? Was he in jail that he caused trouble or so, you know? And she said, Oh, no, no, he's he. And I could tell in her voice that she was telling the truth. She said, No, no, he's an actor. He was on the show. Cheers. And like the Terminator scanning for a human, my brain was. Going through the cast of chairs. Well, what about you read my mind, I said, my biological father is Ted Danson. My roommates are jumping up and down, You're rich, you're rich. He said, No, no, no. His name is Jay Thomas. And I said, Jay Thomas. The true story. One block I was living on the most unglamorous corner of Hollywood, one block from my apartment and the entire side of a building was a poster, a billboard that said Power 106 radio. We apologize for Jay Thomas, and it was his head on the body of a woman because he was battling Howard Stern. East Coast, West Coast. And he was being so wild on the radio, he kept getting fired and I saw his face. Mr. Holland's opus was out. I had gone to see it. J starred in it. I was working at the Tower Record Store. Jay would come in there, a total loud mouth. I went to a movie premiere, but I thought Prince was going to be out to try to give him my CD because Prince had a record label. Jay Thomas, my biological father who I'd never met, had no idea was emceeing for Entertainment Tonight. The movie premiere and my friends and I were heckling him. I mean, it's such a bad movie. I'm surprised Jay didn't make it. Yeah, you've got you got chills. Yeah. Well, it just makes me think that it's unbelievable, right? But it's true. It is unbelievable. I mean. Well, what do you make of that? Is that just coincidence? Well, first of all, I think, you know, every time I open the fridge and the light comes on, I start doing it, you know, 10 second song and dance. So I feel like I get a coincidence that we both they are kind of I feel like I must have a little of the entertainment bug from him. But he hated music. He was like, Elvis is a thief. Bob Dylan's a moron. The Beatles are hippies. So where the music comes from, I don't know. But you know, J. No, I'm talking about the chance meetings. Those, you know, one two three, like, Oh, I think it's just coincidence it had to be or was the universe showing me? Or do you just you want to be an entertainment and you land in a city where there are entertainers? You know, I say in my book, I feel like sometimes God picked up America like a bathmat and shook it, and all the normal people hung on and everyone else like me, we all landed in L.A. Yeah, we were all here trying to make it, you know? And I think it's a strange coincidence. I don't know what to make of it. Yeah, it it's really unbelievable. I won't try to make sense of it, but I know I've been growing up watching him on Mork and Mindy. Yeah. Cheers, Murphy Brown. He had a commercial with Twizzlers, and the mouth would be talking, Yeah. I love licorice. And as a kid, I would imitate that commercial. And it's the voice of my biological father coming to the TV. Yeah. Let me just say this. Yeah, that. It's been my experience that there are often signals all around us that we don't recognize and that could be like, you know what your true calling is like, you know, bird to the water. I mean, a bird to the air, fish to the water. Like what you're what you're calling is reverse their signals all around us. But I also have this theory it's mine only. But for me, trying to find my origin story, my parents, what's a bit like this beacon? Now, I don't know if you ever watched those like animal shows, National Geographic kind of stuff, and you're wearing a leopard print suit on National Geographic. So like when you see like the bear cub, get separated from its mother, what does it do? Looks for it everywhere. It looks for her. It looks for it. And it just wails like cries and wails like this beacon, this homing device. And so maybe, maybe there is some sort of, you know, homing device in you. Somehow you landed on sort of, you know, in the entertainment capital. Sure, that's that's a smart logistical decision. But also like, that's weird. It is that you had so many of these. And so I can't help but thinking, you know, beyond that, there's some sort of, I don't know, natural chemistry between biology that attracts us. Who knows? But it's it's yeah, pretty amazing. And also so my mother, Kendra Harding, I know it gets confusing. My mother, Kendra Harding, not my biological mother. She wrote a letter to Jay, and she said, It's pretty email. She said, Boy, I really understand J.T. better knowing you, which is great. And also, Jay, it was interesting to listen to Jay because he, you know, in the entertainment business and you know, you're no, no, no, no a million no's trying to get. And I was like, Oh, that's happening to me in the record business. So he was able to give me good advice, and I had at that point hadn't really met anyone else in the world who could relate to me trying to get into the into the music business even though he was an actor. So that was great, too. Yeah, maybe I was searching out some advice from him. I don't know. Yeah. So your parents took it really well? They did, yes. As far as I know, I mean, they just I my brother, Lance, who you know in my book party like a rock star, he goes by his Native American name, dances with Budweiser's. He was worried I wasn't going to come home for Christmas or my birthdays anymore, but nothing changed. And he and Jay Thomas got along like gangbusters because Lance was not adopted and his gigantic, you know, I mean, he's as big as the Jurassic Park Gates, and he's my younger brother. You know, sometimes we introduce ourselves to people like your brothers who is some guy said it was once, who's the milkman? So, no, my brother was worried for a second. But you know, we all got along great. And Jay Thomas has two sons, Sam and Jake, who I would lay down in traffic for. I mean, they're my brothers. You can say they're my half brothers. Yeah. And a beautiful wife named Sally and we all get along. Great. So yeah, that's awesome. I have sisters, too. They're half sisters, but I call them sisters. Yeah, I don't call them half bad, but I just try to make it clear here. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have that same kindred spirit like, we're, you know, we're blood, we're family, that's ourselves. And those two are not interested. So Jason, Jake and Sam, they're not interested in entertainment at all. One of them loves hunting and cooking. The other one loves drawing animation. It's just wild. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we find our own path, right? Yes. I'm really impressed then with your parents that they didn't give you a hard time. They don't give you push back natural to hear your brother be concerned. Like, Hey, is this going to change the family dynamic? That's also a very natural, kneejerk reaction. Yes, and what I most commonly hear from parents, the adoptive parents, because they feel threatened or they think, Well, I've invested all this time, love, money, attention. Is it just been in vain now? And that's just insecurity is talking, right? So yeah, and it started up. Maybe Brian, maybe my mom and dad felt some of that, but they didn't share it with me and they weren't really closed up kind of people. I mean, my dad would kiss me on the cheek and hug me, even though it's a big football player. Yeah. So if they felt that I didn't hear it from them and I would say good on them if they were hiding it, because I think that's the smart move is to keep that on the down low. Also normal to have those feelings, but like to not express them or to let that spill onto you is actually says a lot about them in a very, very positive way. I think that's that's the standard right is to when you're really putting the child first, if you're really putting your child first and then that's the adoption story that is the current narrative everywhere, whether that's, you know, the latest celebrity adopting their fourth or fifth child from another country. Yes, they always say, you know, we're saving this child. I'm not a super fan of that narrative. I am a fan of putting the child first. So what often happens in that scenario is the stories about the adoptive parents, not about the child. And then we forget about the fact that that child also. Other parents? Yes. And so what of them like, were they coerced out of giving up their child because they were impoverished or, you know, pressured from a societal standpoint? I heard through my dad when I found him that my mom came from a very Orthodox religious home. There are Christians, and I'm sure just kind of doing the math, you know, the 70s or whatever that that was not an easy time to be a single mother who had sex before marriage and was having a kid. Mm-Hmm. That must have been really, really hard. Yes. Everything. It was like secretive. Don't tell anyone and shameful. Ashamed they should send girls away to live with their cousins or took a boarding house to have a kid and then come back and they would tell them things like Honey, just forget about it. Like it never happened. Hit the reset button. Yes, right? And so no wonder my mom, whatever the case, because I haven't had the chance to reconcile or even hear her side of it. But no wonder that was a reaction. Right? The reaction that I got. So there's actually I have some, you know, some some empathy for that. Although I can't I can't get my head around. It must be. I agree with her. You're both on the same page. We both say over and over. I can't imagine what it was like for them. And this is funny. I haven't told anyone this, but it's not. It's not a secret. You just remind me of something. I don't remember this happening, but Jay Thomas guarantees me it did. So my parents came to visit the family in California. Jay Thomas, his wife and the kids. And Jay was making everyone lunch when they first met, and Jay said, I just walked behind my dad, the big football player, and he said that I just had my hands on him like he was in a chair. I had my hands on his shoulder or I was lightly massaging him or touching his arms. And Jay said he's never forgotten. I don't even remember doing that, but I think maybe just instinctually I was like, This is my dad. We're meeting Jay. Yeah, but hey, this is my dad. Maybe I was reassuring Larry Harding. I didn't need to. It's a funny little memory. I have that I reminded that I was reminded of. Yeah, I think I was just like, Hey, this is my dad here. Just I want everyone to know it. Yeah, yeah, that's what a great gesture you did. Sort of maybe unconsciously. So that's what I meant. It was totally unconscious. Yeah, yeah. What a beautiful moment, though. Yeah. For your dad. Yes. Right. And and he might not have noticed either. But J. J, it said it just like, you know. And Jay said to my, my family, my mom and dad, he said, Hey, can I make you lunch? They were like, Well, if you want to. And he said, it's the least I could do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. What a healthy thing to say, though, right? Like, I'm I'm super glad to hear. That's kind of how it went down because. I think sometimes we get stuck as humans thinking about this some zero game, which is, you know, unfortunately in adoption, there are winners and losers. Mm-Hmm. There's no there's no getting around it, OK, someone's gaining a child and someone's losing a child. And stop. Full stop. Right? Yes. But now, if there can be healing after the fact that you know, Jay's coming to see that, that his boy is in a loving, nurturing home where parents, your parents stepped up as the, you know, parental figures in your life and provided that love and and attention, nurturing and care and teaching that Jay was not able to do for whatever reason. That's amazing. And then you guys can come back together all these years and then he can be open enough or maybe get peace of mind that, you know, maybe it is an exhale moment like, OK, everything did work out totally. Because it's and I say in my book, he said that he he felt like he was going to be coerced. He was like, God's going to curse me for giving up a child. And you know, Jay was kind of, you know, a tough man. He didn't. He was always like, Oh, you're from Michigan. You guys never talk about your feelings. I'm like, You're the one that's acting like Mr. Tough Guy. Yeah. But he just thought he was going to be coerced, gave up a child. And he's, you know, auditioning in New York, trying to make it. And then, you know, he said he saw you said, he said I saw mommies and daddies shopping Thanksgiving weekend with other kids, and he just leaned up against the wall and he started crying. And I've never really been around him when he cried, ever. But if this was a bad hallmark movie that he could have starred in, then cut to me on a table, on a chair at Thanksgiving, you know, getting everyone to saying We all live in a Yellow Submarine, happy as I can be. You know, my dad would pick me up and roar like a dinosaur. Get off the chair. So here's Jay. Think he's going to be cursed? And here I am in, you know, another part of the world in the best situation I could ever be in. Yeah. So then what advice do you have to dads like Jay or moms like my mom from the adoptee standpoint? I mean, he's carrying around all that guilt. Yes. Well, I would say try not to feel guilty because if you couldn't take care of a child and you gave him up, I just I always say, you know, someone made it up, not me. You know, we loved the child enough. We had to give them away. If you can't take care of a child, you've got to give them to a family that can. I believe, you know, I have friends in Nashville that I told you before the show that have adopted three children. And I just think to myself, I know people that have adopted children all over. I think like, Wow, where would these these kids have ended up? It's scary to think about, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't always end well, which is the sad part. But I think that's kind of bring the conversation for full circle. I think my my advice is if it matters enough to you and that's speaking to dads like Jay or my mom, my dad, adoptees like us, if it matters to you enough to search out, you should, because that's, in my view, the only way you can start down a path to heal. You can't sweep it under the rug. There will be that Thanksgiving Day when those memories hit you and kind of like that old Christmas Carol like Jacob Marley. You know his partners. It's like chains around you. It's heavy. And maybe you don't even realize it, but you're carrying these chains around. It's like extreme, extremely emotionally heavy. I mean, you can't kid yourself like that stuff doesn't just fade away in a memory that it doesn't. And we're living in a day and age where people talk about things and you can get, I say, therapist, I like how you say Brian professional. Yeah, health professional, where you can go and talk to people. A lot of it's free and all that stuff really helps. I've gone to talk to people because I'm not great at romantic relationships, and Jay would say, Oh, you have abandonment issues adopted. So I went and talked to a therapist and they were like, No, he doesn't know he's talking about, you know, he's smoking pot again, you know? Yeah, I don't do it. But Jay did a lot, you know, he was like Cheech and Chong birthday party every time he pulled up to pick me up. Yeah. So they were like, You don't have abandonment issues, you know, you just chasing the dream. So, yeah, it's going back to what you said. We live in a day and age where these things can be talked about, so I really encourage everyone to. Yeah, and age specific is important, too. I want to go back to your book because I think it's a really important enough about me. Let's talk about my book. Bryan, No, but like, help us understand. Like, walk us through. I mean, you talk about your brother. Yes. You talk about some heavy issues. Break it down for us a little bit and great. And listen, I've been saying this for months, but it's like I copied you. This is the book I wish I had when I was trying to get in the music business because basically I didn't know anybody in the entertainment business, but I wanted to be a songwriter. And, you know, I moved out to L.A. I lost record deals. I, you know, didn't get to meet Prince with my demo. I actually we didn't have the internet, so I couldn't just call up a record company. You would see the name on the back of a CD. Yeah. So what I did to get into these record companies? I knew a girl that her roommate worked at FedEx, this is all true, and I borrowed the FedEx jacket and going back to your Star Wars like Obi-Wan Kenobi, tap dancing into the Death Star. I walked into every record company, passed every security guard past every, you know, promotion guy chewing on a golf tee and put my demo in every single mailbox. Like, imagine if I walked in here today in a FedEx office with a FedEx jacket, it all would've stopped me. So, so it's all the hits I've written. I've been very blessed. I've had a bunch of hit songs for Blake Shelton, Keith Urban, Kenny Chesney, Uncle Cracker. I talk about how I wrote those and how I did it in very simple terms. But it's also the story of me being adopted. Growing up in a sports family, I had a brother and going back to what you said when I was in sixth grade, he was an eighth. He took his own life. I've never really been able to talk about it. And but I did 10 drafts of the book and I was turning the book in and I thought, This is a big piece of my life that I'm not putting in there. Yeah. And what I found out, even you bring it up. This thing that I was embarrassed about or ashamed about, I don't even know why I would feel that it's it's a thing that so many people have related to. So many people are like, I didn't know about your brother. I wish you had told me the same thing that happened to me. And so that's all in the book. And luckily, my family, we stuck together. We got through it. There's no explaining what happened to my brother. There's no it's a mystery for the ages, you know? He was great at baseball, had lots of friends, had girlfriends and he was in eighth grade. But he seemed like a big man to me, you know? And so that's a that's a that's a more than a blip. But you know, I look at me stumbling over my words and I write songs for a living. I don't know how to put it into words. So that's in the book and how I met Jay and all the funny stories and a few, you know, you'll laugh, you'll cry, but then you'll start laughing again. Yeah, and it's called party like a rock star, and it's available everywhere. And if you were like Brian and like to put your headphones on and take a long romantic walk to the refrigerator, it's on audio books. You should have done it. You know what, if your voice was like? And there I was, apprentice in a stolen FedEx jacket stumped you. Well, no, I just I'm just I'm just thinking, Yeah, yeah, I yeah, I have early roots. My adoptive family was in entertainment and actually in music. I won't go there right now, but that's not Jay Thomas, I hope. No, OK, we could trace. My dad is Bruce Karp. And Bruce was. He followed the Grateful Dead all over the place. He was a a hippie, lived up in the air, lived here in Hollywood and then moved up to the Bay Area and a great man. As it turns out, as I learned about his life and from my sisters who told me my dad, I lost my dad in 2019, he was 69 years young. I think Jay was about the same age when he passed that you've got a lot more life in you, but that's how it is, you know, don't know when you're going to go. But I was thinking back from your lips to God's ears. Yeah, I have a lot more life. Yeah, I mean, hopefully, right? Yeah. And so I want to go back and just ask a little bit about maybe the introspection on losing your brother, if you could say more about that. Yeah, I would love to all try to it and how how it affected your how it is affecting you now and how you're dealing with it. Because again, the common thread through the show is, you know, how how we deal with trauma. And it could be little T or could be big T like like losing a brother like that? Yes, but we have to recognize that the trauma does affect us, right? There's this great book that I recommend called The Body Keeps the score. Oh, it's great. And and with, you know, if it's a good song title, I write that down. Yeah. Well, and so what I've learned from these trauma experts, even like people like Dr Paul Conti, who wrote a book recently on trauma, it's called The Silent Epidemic is that? Whether we like it or not, trauma is going to affect us, so if it comes in from, you know, let's say mentally, if we are exposed to an experience like you do with your brother, that's going to maybe manifests itself in physical ways, of course. Or if we're in a terrible car crash or we have abuse, physical or sexual, that's going to manifest it in a mental way. Absolutely. You can't get away from it. Little tidbit, big two, you've got to deal with it. So I talk about that a little bit because as adoptees, we have the original trauma. Most of it's we don't remember because I was adopted like two days old, yes, but still somehow. And there's another book I would recommend called The Primal Wound, which really helped me understand how that's an imprinting process that separation or abandonment, we still may be grappling with abandonment issues. We just don't know it. Babies, even though they can't see really clearly when their first born, there's a smell and they're in the womb for nine 10 months. Their heart is in sync with the mother's heart, the respiratory, all of it. They're breathing, they're feeling. They're smelling. And when the baby is separated, it's not a clean slate. It's not like you can put a baby in with a new mom and just say, All right, just give it enough love and you're good to go. Yeah, it doesn't work that way, but say more about your brother and maybe how that affected you then and how it's affecting you now. And I can just be, I'll be as honest as I can be. Yeah, of course. Off the top of my head, I would think I don't know how it affected me as a teenager. Yeah, but I know I didn't talk about it much. But but I was growing up in Grosse Pointe, so everyone knew. Yeah. Did you go in or did were you able to talk outward about it? I never really even mentioned it, and my friends never mentioned it, and I found out years later they were like they were. We were always like, Oh, don't mention, you know, JT Dimension Lee, his name to JT. So I guess I just I felt like this took me years to think, I think like someone going to judge me or someone going to think my family's weird because of this, and I didn't want to start the podcast off like this because maybe it was from adoption. But that was also the time where I really collided with putting a band together and spray painting checkerboard patterns on pants and growing my hair. So maybe I don't know. Maybe there was some kind of attention thing where I was. I don't know that I want some sort of new kind of attention on me. I just never really talked about it. I never really dealt with it. My brother, Lance, and I would joke about it all the time. We'd say, Oh, remember when you know we did this or we did that? Yeah. And then all these years later, just when I wrote the book and I've had to apologize to some of my closest friends in Nashville or like a guy said to me, my buddy, Josh said, I don't feel like we're as close. You had a brother passed away. You've never brought it up. And I said, Well, you're calling me saying, Hey, did you see the Friends reunion? What it mean to say, Oh, I did? Oh, and by the way, my brother, you know, killed himself in our basement. Yeah, yeah. So I just think writing about it in the book has really helped, and I wish I had a better answer for you. But I do know this. I talk. I wish I had been there more for my mom because I remember her crying a lot. And of course, I was very sad, but it was in private. But I talked to a health professional mental health professional and she said, JT, you were a kid. Yeah, that was not your job to be there for your parents and boy that took the chains of Christmas past off my shoulders. Yeah, yeah. And and that's really all I can really think about it. But I wonder, you know what he's doing? I wonder, you know, if he's looking out for me and that's there's a song by Kenny Chesney that I did not write call who he'd be today. I wonder who he'd be today. I hear that on the radio, sometimes on my cash. One of my brother, Lee, would be doing it. So that's really all I can. I can say about it, but it's certainly nothing to be, and I'm going to chill. It's nothing to be ashamed about because if you can talk about it without being embarrassed, like maybe it's just a moment that people go through this tiny little moment and then they lose their life. So maybe if talking about if it stops someone from that one little moment they get trapped in, they can, they can, you know, live a life. Yeah. And that's why I applaud you for the book. I think it's so important again, especially since we're grown men, right? We can talk about hard things. Yes, we can. We can address. We're not talking about kids discussing this, right? It's not. It's got to be age appropriate. But whether it's the trauma you feel from an adoption or giving up a child or you've gone through a life changing experience like losing a brother to suicide, I mean, these things are worth talking about. It's cathartic. It's therapy. It's why I do this podcast. Yes, and you're great at it. I've listened. But being in front of you, it's fantastic. Oh, it's my pleasure. And I have to say that really. It helps me because I've been so, you know, I think my trauma has caused me to go inside. And this is something I'm still working on. I'm, you know, I've maybe become more introverted as a result of some of the things that have happened in my past, and it's exact opposite of what I need to be doing. Like, I shut down, I detach, I'm quiet, isolate. I don't tell anyone what's wrong, and it's exact opposite of what I need to do. Right? That's tough. Yeah, that's that's, you know, it's that idea of, you know, the fish that's on the dry land, it flaps away from the hand that tries to help it back in. Oh, yeah. And it's like great analogy, yeah, you got to write a book. Well, I think Sting kind of wrote about that in the song at one point. You know what, dude? This is what I do in songwriting. Good artists copy. Great artists steal. Yeah. So yeah, he got it from somewhere to go. Probably. Well, I'm inspired. On a little side note, you bring all these great things. My brother's best friend was a guy named Rich Waller, who I'm really close with. Rich really started getting into music when I did as well, and he kind of taught me how to write songs. He would say, Listen to these songs. We would kind of dissect the songs together because I don't know the notes or anything. Rich and I to this day are best friends. My other second best friend is that I mentioned him, Greg Pettengill, who lives in the Virgin Islands. He was also my brother, Lee's other best friend. So I am like best friends now with the guys that were friends and my brother and one of them really influenced me and my journey to in music. So that's another interesting side note. I'm sure I would have found someone else to that would have kind of mentored me, but it is interesting that I lost a brother but gained these two other brothers. It's interesting, right? I mean, it's the opportunity once when you're served a s**t sandwich. Right? Yeah, it's like there's nothing good about eating. Yeah, nothing good about it. But then, you know, we can say, OK, now what? Yes. Well, now can I have the waitresses phone number? Yeah, don't cancel me. It's a joke, people. Yeah. Well, you have the opportunity then to be closer to someone else. Yeah. I'm not a believer and things happen for a reason. I think things happen. Maybe there's some, you know, like we talked about earlier, some something beyond. Yeah. But you know, like in that case, you, you and your brother's friends then saw the opportunity to get together and became close. I think that's wonderful. The other thing I was going to say, so Tim McGraw is another famous adoptee. Did you know that I did, but I found out something two days ago that I didn't know from some guys that know him. Do you know? So his father correct me if this tug McGraw is famous baseball player, right? He had that baseball card next to his bed for years, and then he was up in his addict. You know this going through some papers and it said like he found his birth certificate father Tug McGraw, he's like, What is going on? That's incredible. I heard his story. But yeah, I just wanted, you know, your music. You sort of in a circle gets his while it is right. And as Jay Thomas, the loud mouth would say on his radio show, he filled in for Howard Stern every Friday before he passed away. And he said, Give your children away. And then when they're successful, welcome them back into the family. Terrible advice. He was going for laughs, as always. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, we've covered some great ground. I really appreciate you being part of the show. Oh, I wouldn't missed it. And that's why I came in person living in adoption. And you're doing great things for people. So thanks for having me on. My pleasure and tell everyone where they can get the book. Is it on Amazon? Is it? Yeah, it's it's everywhere. It is called party. Like a rock star by yours. Truly, J.T. Harding. You can find it online. Local bookstores and the audio book. A lot of people love the audio book. That's why I mention it. Party like a rock star, and I promise you you'll love it. Laugh, cry and laugh some more. As always, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave a review and as many stars as you think the show deserves, it helps more people find us and join the community. I mean, I want to hear from you. What do you want to know about adoption and how can I help? Are you a parent who has given up a child and and you're wondering, you know, how to find that child or whether or not you should reach out to contact them? Are you an adoptee like me and you want to know how to go about it? There's resources out there I can point you to. Are you? Are you thinking about adopting a child or bringing in a child from foster care? Leave me a note or message. Reach out to me. Somehow, you can leave me a question via speak pirates, speak popcom forward slash adoption land. You can do it privately or anonymously. And I'll do my best to answer your question on one of the next episodes, but I appreciate you listening. I love you guys. This is therapeutic for me. I hope it's helpful and healing for you, and I'll catch you in the next episode. Thanks very much.
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