Transcript
Heineken is brewed for longer with 3 natural ingredients for that very first. That's refreshing. Heineken. Get the facts. Be DrinkAware. Visit drinkaware. Hey, everyone. We have another update episode in case re released for you. This month, we're diving back into episode 62, an influencer's terror. Maggie is a beauty influencer who is cyberstocked. After she launched her online beauty business, Maggie started getting very sexually explicit messages and fake images of herself in pornographic photos, like her face and someone else's body type of creepy stuff. Her stalker even had the audacity to try to make a deal with her, saying that he would stop stalking her if she sent him naked photos. Of course, she didn't do that. She continued to ignore him, but at one point, he joined her live online show completely naked, and all of her followers saw it. Maggie and her husband hired a private detective and had to become their own super sleuths to figure out her stalker's identity. Guys, if you don't remember this story, definitely give it another listen to get yourselves up to speed. We'll play the original episode with an update from Maggie at the end. If you do remember this story well, you can fast forward to around the 1 hour mark to hear Maggie's update. I'm Jamie Beebe. And I'm Jake Deptula. On today's episode of Strictly Stalking, we're chatting with Maggie, a beauty influencer who was terrorized by a perverted cyberstalker. Meghan, her husband, moved to a new city to pursue their dream careers when she began to receive sexually explicit messages through her business website. After months of harassment, including phone calls and images of her face altered in pornographic fashion, her stalker tried to make a deal with her. He told Maggie, I'll stop doing this if you just send me pictures of you naked. But if you don't send them, I'll make a website containing all of these images of my favorite beauty vendor. Maggie ignored his request. And while she was doing an Instagram live skincare routine, he joined the feed and exposed himself completely naked to her followers. Maggie and her husband hired a private detective, but then decided to become true crime sleuths driven to uncover the identity of Maggie's Indiana tried Indiana tried to buy a bra from me. Like, this is just getting creepier and creepier. Maggie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. How did you become a beauty influencer? It was really organic. Actually, it was, I was using the products that I now promote already just kind of as a customer, and then was just organically sharing, anyways, about the transformation in my hair and my skin and blah blah blah. And, I had decided then to partner with the brand and, just pursue it. And now it's kind of a full time thing for me, which is amazing. I mean, who doesn't wanna just talk about their hair and skin all day and help other people get better hair and skin? How many Instagram followers did you have? When I started it, so I actually, at the time I had had an Instagram account that was, like, basically all my photography. And I kind of felt like, I don't know if I wanna expose, like, all of my followers to all this beauty stuff that I'm about to share. And so I actually had decided to start a new page. So I started at Sierra followers. That's how it all began, and now we're at about almost 10,000. I'm like, give me the swipe up. So life was I mean, it was awesome. It was really exciting. My husband, Ty, and I, we had just moved to LA, so we kind of had, like, these rose colored glasses on. We were excited to pursue our dreams and our lives in the city that we had always dreamed about moving to. And, we were just really excited. We were making friends and building community and, you know, traveling all around LA and just, like, seeing, you know, all the cool touristy things and whatnot. I mean, life was so exciting. It was so fun. What was the first incident where you realized something was going on? It was super subtle. So I had created this website for my beauty brand, and I had decided to, like, build my own website as well and then just, you know, share a little bit more about me and my products. And there was this little chat box kind of at the very bottom of the website that said, you know, contact me or do you have any questions? And basically, anybody could just type something in, and then it would shoot an email to me. The moment that, he, like, started contacting me, basically, was I got a message. And I at the time, I didn't think anything of it. Like, I was like, oh, you know, this it's just somebody messing with me. I don't know. And it just started out. I was like, hey. And then it was hike, hi. And then would, you know, the next one would be, I think you're beautiful or, I think you're so pretty or I love your eyes. Like, just kind of random weird things. And initially I didn't think, you know, anything of it. Like I said, I just thought it was I had gotten, you know, the weird messages before on Instagram that were like, I wanna be your sugar daddy. You know? So I'm like, this is just somebody, like, messing with me. I don't know. When did you start to see a pattern of escalation? The messages kind of started to get a little, like, more on the scary side. It was like, I wanna f so bad. I wanna know more about you. What do you fantasize about? Are you quiet or loud? Like, just, like, these weird messages. Do do you like trying new things? Have you ever done anything crazy? You're so stunning. So the the, like, hi, hello messages, like, then turned into these really strange questions that, like, you don't typically ask people or you wouldn't, like, email a beauty brand and say. Like, it was just weird. And that was the point that I was like, okay. Something weird's going on. Like, I don't think this is just somebody messing with me. Did you respond to the messages? No. So, I mean, I I kind of had realized at this point, this is not somebody I need to be chatting with. They're not actually interested in what I have to offer, like, you know, my hair care, my skin care. So, you know, I just kind of thought, this is a weirdo. I'm just gonna ignore it and hope that it kind of fizzles out. How did you know it was all from the same person? It all came from the same email account? So when I was getting these messages, through my website, it doesn't show an email. Like, it doesn't you don't see who it's coming from. I didn't have a name or an email to trace it back to at the time. I just kind of figured once they asked to get images of me that it was the same person. And it wasn't until I actually started getting texts and emails that I kind of had put together that it was the same person. So the first time that they contacted me outside of the website, was a text. And I got a text. This was, in the middle of the night. It was, like, 3 AM. And, I read it the next morning, and it just said, hello. Is this Maggie's number? And I figured, like, okay. Maybe this is, you know, a friend of a friend gave my number to somebody. They're interested in my products. And so I'm like, yes. Who is this? And they said, I'm just a fan of yours, and I really like your Instagram. And for some reason, I'm texting you. And that was, like, that kind of freaked me out. Like, I was, like, a fan? Like, this is kinda weird. So I just said thanks, and they said you're welcome, and that was kind of it. And so at this point, I'm still, like, kind of not aware of who I'm talking to or, you know, what's going on. So I just blew off that conversation. And then a couple days later, I get, a text, and, it says check your email. And it's the same number that had texted me before that said I'm a fan of yours. And so I'm like, okay. So I check my email. The email says get at me. It's a picture of me that I posted on my Instagram a couple days before, and it has semen just, like, photoshopped all over my face. And I was, like, horrified. I mean, seeing thinking like, okay. Somebody is following me who is, like, clearly a weirdo. And at the time, I literally had, like, 200 followers. So it wasn't like I had this gigantic page and some random person came across me. Like, I wasn't big at the time. Like nobody nobody knew who I was. I was just like this little nobody that was like trying to promote my skincare and my haircare. And this weirdo finds my page and edits, you know, explicit images of me and then sends it back to me. So I'm like, it was kind of one of those moments where I was like, get in my tracks. Like, my heart's pounding. Your ears are ringing. You're like, it's like cold sweat kind of feeling, you know? When you're just like, what is happening? And I mean I was just terrified. And this was kind of the point where I was like, alright. This is someone not playing a joke on me. Like, this is serious. Did you have any ideas who it could have been? Were there, like, thoughts in your head, like maybe an ex boyfriend or a rival beauty person? I did think, it was maybe somebody in my business because it I I do work for a direct sales company. And so there's a lot of us doing the same thing. And so I thought, okay, maybe this is like a jealous girl that, like, doesn't want me to be successful. Or, I did think that. I thought maybe it was somebody in my business who's trying to, like, bring me down or keep me from sharing. And so I thought it was, you know, somebody in the business. And then I thought, you know, I had this one ex boyfriend that, you know, hasn't left me alone since I've been married. That I'm like, maybe it could possibly be him. And I did reach out to one of his friend's, wife and that they hang out with him all the time. And I'm like, do you think this could be him? And they're like, absolutely not. Like, he would never do something like that. So we kind of, like, mixed him. And then we kind of were thinking for a little bit, like maybe this could be somebody within my company that really is just trying to make me look bad or bring me down or keep me from sharing, so that I don't, you know, maybe pass them in the business or something. Heineken is brewed for longer with 3 natural ingredients for that very first. That's refreshing. Heineken. Get the facts. Be drink aware. Visit drinkaware. IE. So my husband and I start playing detective. So I'm I'm actually a crime junkie. Like, I've seen a ridiculous amount of, you know, crime documentaries, podcasts, whatever. And so I'm, like, you know, putting together everything I've ever learned, and I'm like, I'm gonna find this person. Like, we're gonna find them, blah blah blah. I wasn't super worried about it. And we, couldn't tray couldn't find the IP address to this, email address. We couldn't trace this phone number back. It was showing, like, you know, a weird house in Indiana that lives a mile away that was traced back to this like 50 year old woman. And we're like, there's no way, you know? And so we actually ended up contacting somebody that we knew in Indiana who was an FBI agent and we just sent him, the number and the email and asked him, like, do you think that you could trace this back to somebody? And that's when we found out that protonmail cannot be traced. And it was the same with the number. It had been used from an app. So there was like no tracing back who this person was. So that was kind of a scary feeling just at that point being like, okay, there's no way we can trace this information back. Like, you know, it was kind of just a scary feeling of not being able to identify who did this. Did the FBI agent give you any advice on what to do or how to deal with it? He just said, you know, keep sending me, you know, if he keeps contacting you, send it to me. I'll try and figure it out. But at the same time too, you know, he's he's an FBI and he's busy and he's working on, you know, big kind of stuff. So part of me didn't wanna bug him with it because I'm like, this is so small. Like, it's probably just like a weird creep or whatever. You know, having no idea at the time how far it would escalate. The FBI agent did tell us to call the police and file a report, which I actually didn't end up doing for, like, a year. But that was the one advice that he did give us. Why were you hesitant to file a police report? Truthfully, I just heard stories like this and known that the police, you know, couldn't really do anything about it. And so I think I kind of felt like it was something that I had to take into my own hands and kind of figure out on my own. And it wasn't until, you know, listening actually finding your podcast and listening to what, you know, other women had said, that made me kind of be like, okay. I need to I, like, need to file this report. I need to have it, like, in the books that I did do this. How did things escalate after the emails started coming in? So I just continued the emails, the texts. It I would block a number, the number that he would text me from, and then a new number would text me. And, that just kept happening over and over and over again. And then it was the same with the emails. I would block an email, and then they would create a new email. And so that kind of continued, and so I'm like, this is so weird. Like, obviously, this is somebody who knows me because how do they have my number, and how do they have my email address? And so, I actually later ended up changing my phone number, just to make it all stop and which is, like, I don't know why, but it was, like, strangely kind of sad because I've had the same number, like, my whole life. So it was, like, kind of a sad thing, like, having to change my number and, like, all these people in my life not having my number all of a sudden. And then and then same with my email, that I just, like, used for years years and then having to change my email. And then the texting stopped, but the emails continued. I mean, I would just continue to block, block, block, block, and he just continued to make more emails and more fake numbers to contact me. Was this something that happened on a daily basis? Yeah. It would be every day, and then sometimes it would stop, you know, for, like, 2, 3 weeks at a time. And we're like, oh my gosh, it's over. Like, he lost interest. It's done. Like, he doesn't care anymore. And then all of a sudden it would pick back up. And so it was like, it would be days in a row and then there'd be breaks and then it would be days in a row again and then it would be like 2 months and then it was like he picks it back up again and this was kind of the pattern for 2 years. So it was like just when I thought he was done, he'd pick it right back up. And that was kind of scary because I there wasn't a really a pattern. It was just kind of like, you know, you think he's done And it's like, right when you think he's done messing with me, it just starts all over again. Was it just email and text or had he, started contacting you through social media? I mean, I knew that this person was following me on my Instagram because they were getting all the photos from my Instagram. And I'm like, well, I can't make my Instagram private because, like, I get 90% of my customers through here. Like, this is where I'm, like, promoting my brand. So, like, in my mind, I was like, I I guess I could just endure it and keep going. And this is before it got, like, super crazy. But, and then it was I got that email that had a Facebook photo of me. That's when I was kind of like, oh my gosh. This is somebody close in my life because I don't have a lot of Facebook friends. Like, I this has always been kind of, like, a private space for me. And at the time I just didn't know that really I had had a setting on my Facebook that anybody could have access to my my photos. So they, you know, just went through super deep into my insta or into my Facebook and found this photo of me because I got an email that was another photo of me. I'm 16. I have, like, candy in my mouth, and he had, like, edited all the semen in my mouth. And so that kind of freaked me out because I had always kept my my Facebook pretty private. And then I get an email. They said, if you do not send me photos of you, I will make a website of you of all of these images that I've created of my favorite beauty vendor. And so I went into my Facebook. I, like, deleted all of these people that I maybe suspected. I may have hurt some feelings, you know, deleting all these people, but I was like, I need to only be friends with people that are like my family and that I'm really close with. So I deleted all of these people. I went through Facebook for like hours and made all of these things private. Like, you cannot access anything on my Facebook now. It's like I don't exist pretty much on there. You cannot see anything. It's, like, all private. I then get, this comment one day on my business website. It was a comment on one of my photos on my business page on Facebook, and it was just a link. I, you know, I click on the page. No friends. No photos. Nothing. I'm like, okay. This is clearly a fake page. Like, I'm not new to the social media world. The comment that they had put on my photo was a link, and it was the creeper. They had done what they said they were gonna do. If you don't send me nude photos of you, I'm gonna make a website of all these pictures. Click on the link. So I click on the link and it's a website and it says, Maggie and Moore, and you just scroll down and it's all of these photos of me from my Instagram, from my Facebook. It's screen grabs of me from videos of me doing like hair tutorials of me like with my eyes closed, like when I'm like blinking, with like sexually explicit, you know, like dirty talk on there. Just tons of content. My brain goes to, like, okay. Clearly, this person has, like, no influence. They're a little nobody. They're using I can't even remember what the website was, but it was, like, a website that, like, nobody visits that site anymore. It's, like, 20 year old, like, website that nobody nobody works on there anymore. It was, the name that had posted it. Like I said, I didn't know the name, or that person that would have shared that. I was like, I wonder if this name that they're hiding behind follows me on Instagram. So I go to my followers, I type the name in and sure enough, there, this person is following me. So I click the page and yet again, it's another fake page. It's like it's this picture of this 20 something, you know, blonde girl. They have, like, 10 followers and they're following, like, 100 of blonde 20 year old somethings. And the photos, there's like 6 pictures. They're all posted on the same day. There's like no likes, no comments. Just fishy. Like, obviously, it looks like a fake page. So I'm like, oh my gosh. I had, like, interacted with this page. They had they had sent me messages on, responded to my stories, and just said things to me or complimented me on my stories. And I had responded. I had interacted with this person and I realized, oh my gosh. This is my this is my stalker. I was kind of faced with, do I block this page or do I continue to kind of let, like, build a case and, just let them continue to follow me and kind of screw up, and I'm just not gonna interact with it. What was your husband doing at this point to try to figure things out for you? So he the whole time is, like, playing detective. Every single time, you know, I got a message or, you know, a text or, you know, a DM or whatever. Like, he would, he was amazing. Like, he would console me and also just, like, he didn't I don't think anybody who's never been through something like this can you know, you know, somebody messing with your wife like this in like a sexually explicit way. I mean, I can imagine how that made him feel as well. So it's like, you know, he's where I'm going through something and he's going through something at the same time. That was just like, it was really kind of hard for both of us. Did your stalker ever try to reach out to your husband? He did, actually. So this was kind of strange. So I ended up taking my website down, and so the stalker couldn't, you know, send me those private messages anymore through my website. And he actually did some research and found that, you know, we have this media company, which I didn't really talk about much on my beauty page. So I I wasn't sure how he even found that, but he he found our our business Instagram and then found our business website and sent a message through, our website, which it was the same kind of thing, you know, had that chat box. And it basically said to Tyler, it's your old friend again. Mind making your Instagram public again? If not, well, you see the name of the email I'm using right? Photoshop works great on Little sisters too. Get at me. He had gone through our business page, which my husband, like, he runs all of that and sent this email, and it was from my sister's name at protonmail.com. So this was kind of the second threat that he had given us. You know, if you don't, you know, make your page public, which, you know, I got scared, so I made it private, a while back not knowing, you know, if this person was actually following me. This was, like, long before I knew if they were following me or not, so I had decided to make, you know, my page private. And I guess they weren't following me at that time and said, you know, they were threatening me. If you don't send me these pictures, I'm gonna do the same thing to your sister. And Tyler had actually responded back to him and said, Maggie doesn't see any of this stuff. Like, this is her husband and I see it. And if you don't stop, we're gonna contact the police. And after that, he had responded and said, like, I wanna hear from Maggie, not you. I'm not dumb. Like, I think he thought maybe it was me saying that to him where it was actually Tyler, and saying, like, I'm not dumb. Like, you don't need to be telling your husband about this or something. Almost like we had this secret going on. I thought that was kind of strange. Like, he thought he was talking to me, but that was that was pretty much the first time that he had contacted Tyler. What were the next steps that you took in order to combat your stalker? So after that, that's kind of actually when, like, my mental health kind of started taking a toll with everything. It was like I was having extreme anxiety, I wasn't sleeping through the night, I was, like, physically sick. Like I hated even getting on my phone and like checking. It would just give me this like PTS. Like I was scared to even get on there. And there was part of me that just kind of wanted to detach. Like I just didn't wanna share anymore on my social media. I didn't you know, I kinda stopped posting photos of even my face just because I was so terrified of waking up to a text or an email that was of my face, you know, sexually explicitly edited. And, this was kind of months of me just detaching from social media and my business and really talking about it or sharing it with anybody. And I'm not typically somebody to post, like, my sad feelings on social media. Like, I'm a very bubbly, like, outgoing, like smiley person, like, always have joy, I'm always so excited. And so for me to share this photo and it was like, just like shadowy, and it just said, you know, a story is being written and someday I'm gonna tell it. And I don't even know why I shared that, but I think I just I wanted to, like, be a human in the moment and just share with people that, like, I have I have down days too. And my mother-in-law actually reached out to me, and, she was like, okay. You know, your your father-in-law, like, he didn't want me to reach out to you about this, but I I wanted to check-in on you. Like, are you doing okay? Like, I saw that. I saw your photo and I saw your comment and, like, what's going on? And I mean, this is, like, after a year of this going on and I just was, like, I need to tell them. Like, I guess I didn't tell them before because I didn't wanna put any pressure or stress on them. My immediate family knew, but I didn't tell, you know, my my in laws or, you know, extended family because I didn't wanna put any stress on anybody or, you know, have them worry or whatever. And so, we ended up FaceTiming with his parents and sharing it with them. And this is when they said, alright, we've got to hire a private detective. Like, this cannot continue. And that's kind of when we took our next step. And we started working with a private investigator at that point. Heineken is brewed for longer with 3 natural ingredients for that very first. That's refreshing. Heineken. Get the facts. Be drink aware. Visit drinkaware. After you hired the private detective, what were the next steps they took? So that was a very interesting experience, just because, like, family was involved and, like, my in laws are involved and then it's, like, photos of me being sexually edited and them seeing that and then being connected with this PI. Like, anytime we'd have a call, it was, you know, them, Tyler and I and the PI. And that was actually kind of a it was very uncomfortable because it's like, you don't want your in laws to see you like that. You know what I mean? Like, you don't want them to see photos of you like that or, or somebody kind of, like, hurting you or betraying you or, like, I don't know. It was like a very weird emotional experience. Like, he worked so hard on our case and he did everything he could to find this person. And, you know, he, we would send all of the info over, you know, all of, you know, the text, the emails, the, the website, the everything. And he worked so hard to just like, you know, do anything that he possibly could and thought in ways that, you know, no normal person could. You know, he's this is what he does for a living. So he even had, like, a social media bullying expert on our case. You know, he he's, like, the private investigator himself, so he just, like, is digging all day online, and had another person another, like, online expert involved. Did the private investigator find new evidence against your stalker? He did. So, something that I I had learned actually through your podcast, make a timeline. You have to make a timeline. So make a timeline of everything that they've done, when they did it and have all of the evidence. And so, being able to hand that over to my investigator was, like, so so powerful and helped the case so much. I wouldn't have known to do that had I not found this podcast. And, it helped him so much find this guy because it was almost like I did the work. Like, not not that I did the work, but I gave him everything that he needed to use to find this person. He just he kind of took what I had but was able to apply it in a way that would really figure out who this is. So, the private investigator, used this site. Basically, what this site is is he'll take an alias name, plug it in, and it will show all of, you know, the social media outlets that this person has used with this alias name. So he used, every email alias, even the the Facebook alias, the Instagram alias name that we gave him, and he plugged them all in. And he ended up finding multiple sites and multiple social media accounts affiliated with this name. So he found, it was, like, Twitter account. It was Ebay accounts, Poshmark accounts. There's, like, this one dating site or something. And he ended up finding this one Poshmark account. This is where it takes kind of a creepy turn. So the Poshmark account was the same initials as the the person that was reaching out to me. So we thought that was really interesting. And then it said Noblesville, Indiana, which is 10 minutes from where I grew up. It's 10 minutes from where I was from. So, the PI is like, do you know this person with this name? And I'm like, no. I've I I have no clue who this I've never heard that name ever. And then he's like, I traced it back to an eBay account with the same name. I traced it back to, you know, this account, same name. He's like, the Poshmark account says Noblesville, Indiana. The eBay account is Noblesville, Indiana. And then the other account was Noblesville, Indiana. And so he said, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna buy something from this eBay account and I'm gonna have you know, it's gonna be sent to me and it's gonna have a return address on it and it's gonna have the name on it and it's gonna have the address on it. And if it is from Noblesville, Indiana, and if it is the same name, then I think we've got our guy. And this was, like, crazy because I'm thinking, oh my gosh. This person lived 10 minutes away from me my whole life. Is this somebody that I know? Is it a real name? You know, is this like a, you know, a fake name that they're using, you know, on social media? And just figuring out that I may have grown up, you know, with this person. It was just like, it's weird. It's a weird feeling. So I end up getting on my old Poshmark account, and I had started this Poshmark account, like, right before my husband and I got married. I was trying to sell, you know, all these clothes before I moved in with him and just like, you know, I didn't wanna take a bunch of stuff with me. And I had, this like crop top, like bralette bathing suit top kind of thing that I was selling, that this person tried to buy from me. I guess they had tried to buy it from me, like, maybe a year or 2 ago, but that Poshmark account was so old. It was, you know, 5, 6 years ago. I wasn't even using it anymore. I I didn't even, like, look if someone bought I mean, I kind of abandon it to be honest. And I I go on my old Poshmark account and I see that this person tried to buy this bralette thing from me. And then there's all these comments under it that said, like, you know, I'm reporting you. You didn't send me this. Like, I've contacted Poshmark. Like, I've reported this. Like all these comments like, are you going to send this or not? And I I click on that person's name, same name that the PI had found, Noblesville, Indiana. And I'm like, oh my gosh. This person tried to buy a bra from me. Like, this is so weird. This is like a guy from Noblesville, Indiana tried to buy a bra from me. Like, this is just getting creepier and creepier. And so I end up sending this account to the PI. I'm like, I found another account that he goes, you know, under the same name by. He's like, thank you so much. Like, you know, I'm I'm playing PI too the whole time he is because I'm I'm trying to figure it out and help him and send him any, you know, any more evidence that I have. And, he ends up using that alias and finding another alias on eBay. And it was actually that alias that he ended up purchasing something from. And, you know, we get on a call with the PI and he says he shows us a photo of the product that he bought and shows us, the return address and the name. And sure enough, it's his name and the address. And so he's like, I think this is our guy. And the weirdest part was we didn't know who it was. And so, I'm kinda like, it was kinda creepy. Like, it was just this random person who lives 10 minutes away from me that maybe found my Instagram or whatever and started creeping on me and whatnot. And it wasn't until later that it all that all started to unfold. What did you learn about your stalker from the PI? So I learned a lot, and I thought maybe it would make me feel better, but it actually scared me even more. We found out his criminal record. We found out where he lived. We found out where he worked, all of this stuff. So he has a criminal record for having an illegal gun. He has a criminal record for being evicted. He has a criminal record for, legal drugs, DUIs. Just all of these things that kinda like unsettled me. Finding out that he lived 10 minutes away from my family, scared me a lot because after finding out that he had all these charges against him, and knowing that he worked so close, to where they live, finding out that he worked at a restaurant that they've been to that my in laws go to regularly, that was all really scary, finding out all of that information about him, him having threatened my sister and doing the same thing. It scared me that he was so close to him. Everybody always asked me, like, were weren't you so happy when you found out that he wasn't in LA? Because that that's like that was a, you know, huge thing. You know, I was scared even everywhere that I went here. I was scared. I mean, I was looking over my shoulder constantly like, does he live here? Is he he watching me? Does he see me? You know, like, we did things like we had, like, buy a gun. Like, you know, we bought security cameras. Like, there were just things that we did, you know, because we didn't know, you know, where he lived. So, there wasn't really any relief that came when I found out information about him. If anything, it just kind of scared me even more because I was afraid for my family, that he was this violent person and, having threatened my sister, I was afraid he was going to hurt her. And so I contacted my family and told them, you know, he lives 10 minutes away from you. His mom lives in the neighborhood across the street from you. Like, he's very close. And so that scared my family too. And and it made me feel so bad that in in kind of guilty in this strange way that I was dealing with this situation and this person that I, I felt like I like had brought it on by having an open social media account that now, like my whole family's enduring. Like, you know, my little sister was so scared everywhere she went. I mean, she would text me and say, I think I saw, you know, there's somebody, like, following me or, you know, I saw the sky walking and he was looking weird at me. Like, my situation made my family paranoid, and so I hated that. It felt like this burden on me. It was something that not only, you know, I was dealing with and then my husband was dealing with, it was something that now my family was dealing with and kind of infiltrating their life. So finding out information about him, it didn't it didn't, like, make me feel better. It actually scared me even more. Once you got the information, were you able to go back to the authorities and have anything any consequences for him? So once we found his name, and we found out all this information about him, we thought that right after that, we could go to the police and we could press charges, but we were kind of advised by the PI to just kind of sit back and kind of wait on it for a minute. Let's wait, you know, for him to screw up so that we can really prove that it's him. It was 4 months of us just like being quiet. And, you know, this is when I'm I'm still letting this page follow me on Instagram. They're still interacting with me. And at this point, I'm like it was strangely empowering, knowing that he was following me on my Instagram page and I knew who he was, but he didn't know that I knew who he was. So I knew that he was posing as this 20 something year old girl and, you know, sending me these messages like, you know, I'm like sharing about this cleanse I'm doing. And he's like, Go, you. That's amazing. Like, I feel like a girl, you know, telling me like, you are so pretty. And like, you know, saying, like, girl, I love that headband. Like, acting like this girl, like, interacting with me as a girl. And I'm just sitting back like, you fool. Like, I know that you're this 40 year old man in Indiana, like, posing as this chick. And it just that was strangely empowering for me. Just like ignoring his messages, but knowing, you know, just knowing that it was him. You know, I did get really sensitive about how I shared on social media. You know, I never ever posted photos of my face anymore, like, on my feed. I never, you know, posted my location or if I was somewhere that I wanted to share, I wouldn't share it until days later because I didn't want him to know where I was at the time. What happened Christmas 2020? Christmas 2020 was a nightmare. So I I was actually going home to Indiana, and I was super scared. I figured that he may have known that I was going back home to Indiana for Christmas. I mean, who doesn't go home for Christmas? And I hated knowing that I was gonna be 10 minutes away from him. I was I was so paranoid. I was so scared because I was terrified that whole time, like, trying to sleep at night, you know, knowing that this person who is potentially really violent or, you know, maybe wanna kill me or I don't know, is sleeping 10 minutes away from I you know, me. You know, that was like a really scary feeling. I so thankfully, nothing ended up happening while I was home. But right after we got home, we're back in LA. I'm doing this skincare routine on a live. It's like, you know, 9 o'clock at night. And my business partner requests to be in my life. And it's super normal that her and I do these lives together. I mean, we've done tons together and I'm on the live and I'm like, alright, girl, like, you're not coming on my live unless you're doing your skincare routine too. And, and she's, like, she's so funny and, like, a fun funny gal. Because so I could've just seen her just coming on there just to, like, give me havoc while I was doing this live. And, so I accept her to be in the live with me. And I'm like at the time, I'm like, you know, scrubbing my face. And the second screen pops up and it's this weird dingy apartment. And I'm like, what? That's not her apartment? She lives in this, like, beautiful, gorgeous, big lit, like, LA apartment. And I'm like, that's not her apartment. And then all of a sudden, this person walks into the frame and it's this man and he's completely naked, has a boner, bends over, shows us his butthole, turns around, shows us his wiener, and then walks off the frame. And this I mean, I it happened within, like, 5 seconds. I mean, it was all so fast. And I'm, like, what's happening? I've got, like, 50 people watching this live with me. I x out of it super fast and I'm, like, just, like, what just happened? I'm, like, in my mind, I'm, like, I have to recover. Like, I have to come back from I have to come back from it. I can't just, like, end this life right now. Like, these are people, like, these are customers. These are people I work with. These are people that know my business partner. And so I just x out of it super fast. And I'm like, you guys, I'm so sorry. That was not, you know, my business partner that you guys know. I, I didn't want, I didn't want them to think it was her like playing a joke. So I like, I was trying to cover her. Like, I'm like, you know, it, it, that was not my business partner. And in that moment, I'm just like, I have to tell them what's going on. Like here, I've been enduring this stalker, this online stalker for 2 years, and I've never shared it with my, you know, my social media. And I've just showed up every single day doing my job, doing my job every day. And I'm like, I have to just tell them because I don't know I don't know how else. Because I knew in my heart who that was. I mean, who else would do that to me? And so I tell them, like, you know, I've had an online stalker for 2 years, and they've they've been sexually harassing me for 2 years. And, like, this is what's been going on. And I just shared it with them, and it, like, broke my heart. This one woman goes, oh my gosh. My 6 year old was watching that with me. And that, like, made me sick because I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I can't believe he's tried so hard to get my attention for 2 years and now he's infiltrated my business. Like, he just exposed himself to my customers and to my my business partners. And I I just, like, I couldn't believe that I had gotten to this point. And I I didn't know what else to do but to tell them, you know, what was going on. You know, everybody was so receptive and so kind and just said, you know, like, I'm so sorry that's been happening to you. Like, I can't believe that just happened. And everybody's like, what just, like, what just happened? You know? And so that was that lit a fire under me. Like, I was like, I am not sitting on this for a couple more months to try and, you know, identify for sure who this is. We know who it is, and that's it. I'm done. So I don't think we even slept that night. I mean, we were I I I it was like a feeling I've never felt before. Like, you know, your, like, skin gets hot and you're, like, you're burning on the inside. It literally feels like you're on fire, like, when you're that upset. And I'm so embarrassed and just, like, mortified and feel, like, taken advantage of and just, like, all these feelings I've never felt before. And so we spent the entire day, the next day, like, doing more research with all of, you know, all the evidence that we had, everything. I mean, we just took it to the next level. We, we ended up, you know, paying to, like, find out, you know, through white pages who his family is. And so, you know, there's part of me that was like, okay. We can either start our case for real and we can call the prosecutor's office and, like, really get, like, things going or, you know, maybe we could contact his family, maybe socially shame him and like embarrass him that he would stop doing what he's doing. But there was also part of me that was like, no. We have to, like, legally push forward because I guarantee you I'm not the only girl that he's messing with and doing this kind of stuff too. So, we end up, like, talking, kind of figuring out. We find his mom. We find his dad. His mom lives across the street. No joke from my family. We find out who the dad is. He was my 6th grade principal, super strange. He's like on the board of the school district and we're like, okay, do we contact, you know, the police and see what they'll do, you know, in in this city that we're from or do we contact his family? And so there was part of me that kind of, like, had a heart for, like, one second. I'm, like, super furious, but also, like, I am a very grace giving person and, like, I want the best for everybody. And I come up with this message to send to his dad and it's coming from Tyler. So he says, you know, hi, so and so. You know, I just wanted to ask you if this person is your son, gives a name. You know, I wanna tell you that he's been sexually harassing my wife for 2 years online. And, but also, you know, we have mental illness in our family too. And we just we wanted to make you aware of what's going on before we press charges, maybe to see if you could possibly do something to make it stop. And within like 10 minutes, we get a message back that says, my son doesn't know who your daughter is and he's never contacted her ever. So to us, that was just confirmation that this person was his dad. And then he said, if you're comfortable with me giving him your number, I will have him call you. And we're like, no. Absolutely not. Like, tell her now, like, are you kidding me? So we're trying to, like, think about what we're gonna say back. Because I'm like, no. We're trying to end the conversation with us. I don't want him having our number and then calling us. Like, he's the last person I wanna hear from. And so basically there was confirmation that this was his son, and that was like all we needed. So knowing also that this is a 40 year old man stalking me and that he has this huge criminal background. But, like, obviously his dad knows, you know, like, they don't not know. Like, these crimes have been happening since he was a teenager. So, I see that the dad and I have a mutual friend, which is the police officer that kind of oversaw everything at my high school that I'm actually very good friends with. And so I'm like, this is kind of strange. So I contact the police officer. He calls me the next morning, and he's like, hey, did you get a strange call? And I'm like, what do you mean did I get a strange call? And he says, well, I got a strange call. Do you know so and so? Naming the dad. And I'm like, why? And he says, well, you know, he said he asked me if you are a real person. And I'm like, k. That's strange. And he said, you know, he's saying that that your husband is saying that his son is sexually harassing you. And I said, you know, funny you're saying that, and I just, like, gave him the whole low down story. And I'm sharing with him, you know, all all the information and whatnot, and he's telling me, you know, actually, I know that, you know, the dad, has had all of these issues with his son, you know, for the past, like, 20 years. I know of another situation where he sexually harassed, like, one of my coworkers, And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. Like, he's he clearly has a history in this city. Like, why is nobody doing anything? The officer ends up calling me the next day and he's like, okay. I wanna move forward with your case. And he's like, you know, I love you and I want this to stop for you, but I think there might be more people involved. And, after that, he just stopped talking to us. And that was kind of a red flag. I mean, we were like, what's going on? This is like 2 months ago. And and I contact the officer again. I'm like, hey. Have you made any progress on the case? And all he says is, have you heard from him? And I'm like, no. And then nothing. And so it's kind of at this point right now that I that we we kind of feel like it's back in our hands. Like, now we're gonna have to push really hard. It kind of feels like maybe the police doesn't they don't have our back or, you know, I we don't know what's going on, but it's kind of at this weird standstill. When was the last time that you heard from your stalker? The last time I heard from the stalker was, it was right after Christmas. It was that video. That was the last time that he that he kind of came after me. When we contacted his dad, we actually when when the dad confirmed that this guy was his son, I kind of thought, oh my gosh. I guarantee you he's gonna go in and he's gonna delete, like, every, you know, all the Instagrams, the Facebooks, the Poshmark pages, everything. So we need to have evidence of the day that we contacted his dad, and screenshots of, like, all of the profiles and the time and the date that they weren't visible, because I guarantee he's gonna delete him. And then no joke, the next day, everything was gone. Everything. The Poshmark pages, the eBay account, the Instagrams, the Facebook, everything was deleted. And so, yeah, that that video of him getting on my live, I mean, that was the last time we heard from him. How long do you think that he had been aware of you and potentially following you on social media before he made his presence known? That's an interesting question. So I've thought about that too. I, you know, I sometimes I think about that, you know, has the stalker known me longer than I've known who he is? You know what? He, you know, clearly we grew up in the same hometown. He graduated with my oldest sister. You know, sometimes I wonder, has he been aware of me way longer than I've known who he is? But something that our PI identified was that he lives very close to the church that my husband and I used to work at in Indiana. And he thought maybe he attended the church. And he saw us on stage every weekend leading worship, maybe grew an infatuation with me. Once I moved, maybe he felt comfortable to reach out to me. Where are you at now in your life in dealing with your stalker? Do you have any next steps or are you waiting for him to reach out again? Ugh, man. That's a hard question to answer because I there's part of me that, you know, I've been contacting recently, like more attorneys and, just friends of friends who have connections also in the same hometown and asking for advice on what to do. And I go back and forth too of, like, do I want him to be charged, or, like, does he need to be in, like, a mental facility? What advice do you have for other people going through a situation like this? This is, like, the whole reason I wanted to share this with you guys. I I didn't wanna come on to this podcast wanting people to feel bad for me or be like, you know, oh, poor girl. You know, whatever. Like, I wanted to share this podcast with you guys because I I became so empowered listening to your podcast. Wanting to share this, share my story on your podcast was my hope that other women would become empowered. If they're going through something like this, I felt so alone in what I was dealing with. I mean, even my close friends and family, I'd shared shared this with them, you know, what I was going through, and they'd say, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, maybe you should delete your Instagram. Or, you know, like, they would just have these, like, well, I can't do that. Like, this is my business. Or, you know, they would just have the this, it wasn't it wasn't as big of a deal to them because they just weren't experiencing it. And so and while, like, I don't blame them, you know, for not understanding what I went through, it's still like, it's hard to talk to people about this who just don't understand. And so finding your podcast made me feel like I was listening to stories of women that understood what I was going through. And my hope was that sharing my story, I hope somebody, you know, would reach out to me and say, thank you so much for sharing your story because this is exactly what I'm going through. And, like, nobody else understands. And what I would want to tell them is number 1, it's not your fault that this is happening to you. You know, there are just sick people in the world that unfortunately prey on people and it doesn't mean that you did something that brought it on. You know? 2, you can become empowered through it. And I would encourage somebody, you know, you know, get on top. Don't don't let them victimize you. I guess the main thing is, you know, I don't want somebody to go through what I went through and feel alone. Maggie, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. If anyone out there is in need of help or is a victim of stalking, please reach out. You can find a list of resources on our Instagram at strictly stalkingpod. If you'd like to share your story with us on Strictly Stalking, you can reach us at strictlystalkingpod@gmail.com. That's strictlystalkingpod@gmail.com. And now we're on Patreon where you can sign up for exclusive bonus episodes, case files, and check out show merchandise. Just go to patreon.com/strictlystocking. I'm Jake Deptula. And I'm Jamie Beebe. Thank you for joining us in today's episode of Strictly Stalking. Heineken is brewed for longer with 3 natural ingredients for that very first That's refreshing. Heineken. Get the facts. Be drink aware. Visit drinkaware. Hey, you guys. Thanks for having me back. My name is Maggie, and I live in LA. My stocking story started back in 2019 right after I had moved to LA from Indiana. It was just me and my husband and our dog. We have a film and a photo company, and so we moved to LA to kind of pursue that. I was looking to make some extra cash on the side, so I had actually signed up, with a friend to do direct sales. It was a hair care and skin care company. So it kind of required me to do a lot of beauty tutorials on social media. And I was posting almost every single day being really active. I had created this, like, brand new Instagram page. So I only had about 200 followers at the time. And then my husband had the idea of making a website so people had a way to learn more about the products. They could reach out and ask questions and all that stuff. Well, I started getting some emails randomly. I thought it was, like, a scam. I didn't really know what was going on. It just started out as, like, hi. And then it would be like, hello. And then it would say something like, I think you're so beautiful, and they just kind of escalated from there. But I ignored it for a while. After that, I got one really after that, I got one really disturbing email, just about these wishes that this person had with me, things that they wanted to do with me that were just extremely perverted. That one kind of really shook me to my core, made me extremely uncomfortable. They had kind of alluded to that they had been watching me for a while and were a big fan and kind of had this, like, fantasy. So I at that moment, I kinda wanted to just, like, delete the website and only pursue, the beauty stuff through my Instagram. After that, I started to get texts, from random members, some of them I didn't know, asking if this was Maggie, just telling me that they were a really big fan, that they loved what I shared. So I kinda thought it was, like, a little girl or something, maybe. I don't know. Like, a chi like, a kid that was watching my social media and were inspired by what I was doing and whatever. So I kind of ignored it. And then the text sort of escalated, like, demanding my attention, just constantly talking about how much they admired me and how beautiful I was. And at the moment, I had asked them to stop contacting me. So they had stopped texting me after I had blocked the number, and I started getting emails almost every single day of pictures that I had posted on my social media that were pornographically edited by this person. And they would send them to me on the regular and demand that I send them nude photos of myself. So I obviously completely ignored it. I was like, this person is a psychopath. Like, what is going on? But the emails just continued and continued and continued and went on for a few years. It was really daunting. I didn't know who it was. And when you don't know who is contacting you, you think it could be anyone. So it kind of spiraled me into this little bit of an of an isolated place. I was very distrusting of everyone in my life, all of my friends, my family. I didn't know who this was. He was trying to scare me and sabotage me, and I was so in my head trying to figure out what was going on. I feel like the only person I could trust was my husband. I stopped sharing, like, any personal details with anybody close in my life. I stopped sharing my face on my social media because I was so afraid of getting an email of, you know, my face pornographically edited yet again and sent in. These images were just so, so traumatizing. It got to a point where I was just so isolated, and so anxious and depressed that I wouldn't leave my house by myself. I was afraid that this person was going to hurt me or harm me. The emails just got more and more more threatening with, defaming me. They said that they were going to, make an entire website of all of these photos and try to, like, out me. And by the way, these edited photos were, like, so so so terrible. Now when I look back, I'm like, nobody would have ever believed that these pictures were actually me. But it was such a scary time of not being able to trust anyone and just being so afraid for my safety that, yeah, I wouldn't leave my house and myself. I always had my husband with me, even letting my dog outside. I was really scared. It got to this point where I was so low, that my mother-in-law actually reached out to me and she was like, hey, what is going on? Like, are you Okay? And I kind of just told her everything. And she was like, we're going to figure out who this is. So we ended up hiring a private investigator and he worked tirelessly for weeks and we worked together to try and find this guy. Well, long story short, he ends up finding a similar alias name on Poshmark. It was this alias name that was emailing me that this person, keep in mind, they used all different kinds of aliases, all different kinds of Instagram accounts, different email accounts, fake numbers. Like, it just was constantly changing. And so I couldn't keep up with the blocking of emails and numbers and all of that. And so the PI had actually identified one of the aliases that they had used was the same as a Poshmark account. And so he was like, okay. This is really interesting. You know, this guy's from Indiana. That's where you're from. And I'm gonna buy he was like, I'm gonna buy something from the Poshmark account and see if they send me something. And if there's a return address, then we'll have, like, a name and an address. So sure enough, we get the package, and it has the address on it and a name. He looks into the sky. I have no idea who he is. He's from my hometown. His father is like a very well known public figure in the community. And my p is like, do you know this guy? And I'm like, I have no idea. I don't know how he would have found me. I've never met him. I've I just totally, totally confused about the entire situation. So it kind of halted for a little bit. I had, again told this person to leave me alone, and he had responded and was like, I'll leave you alone. But a couple weeks later, my Instagram was, not hacked, but I was doing an Instagram live. And I got a request by one of my really good friends to be on my live. And I accepted her to be on it, but it wasn't her. And it was actually this completely naked man exposing himself. I tried to x out of it as fast as I could, and I was like, there's no one else that this would have been except for this stalker. I just couldn't imagine that anybody else would try to attack me in this way. And at that point, I my blood was boiling. And so my husband and I stayed up that night trying to figure out who his family was. We had this guy's name. We had his address, but we were like, how can we connect him to his family? How can we how can we find his mom or his dad? And so we ended up actually finding his dad. So we reached out to his dad and said, you know, hey. This is happening. I have mental illness in my family. I understand that people do these things, and we just went to see if there was any way that you could stop this. Like, could you talk to your son? You know, he's almost a 40 year old man. Like, surely, you know that he, you know, is is doing stuff like this. Well, the dad responds back, and he's like, my son has never heard of you. He doesn't know what you're talking about. But, ironically, every single account that he had created to contact me through was deleted. The website went down, so that just confirmed that it was who we thought it was. We ended up getting the police involved, and sadly, there wasn't much that they could do. I don't know if they reached out to him and were like, hey. Like, cut it out. Or if they, like, scared him or what happened, but he never contacted me again after that. The first time I ever told my story was actually on Strictly Stocking. Felt really alone at the time, and I was just looking for anyone that had experienced what I was going through that could give me advice or help me out or just talk to me or just lead me in the right direction of what I could do. Really, I was just looking for some mental clarity. And I was so happy when I came across the Strictly Stalking podcast because it was all of these women just sharing their stories of what they do, how they got help, how they went about, you know, reaching out to the police. And it was really, really helpful for me. There was a lot of advice on there that helped me be able to take next steps. And I was really, really thankful for that. So I do have a little bit of an update on the story. On Christmas day, actually, I was it was a Sunday this past year, and I was at church. And I just checked my phone quickly right before service, and I had a missed call from my detective that was working on my case. And I was like, well, that's really weird that he would call me on, like, Christmas Day. Like, what? And then I saw that I had a text from him and he said, hey, call me when you get this. And I was like, I'm actually at church right now. Like, I'll have to call you after. And then I just had this moment where I was like, could this possibly be about the stalker? And I ended up just looking up his name, and I saw a obituary for him. And I saw his face for the very first time. I had never seen a picture of him. And I have to be honest with you. My first thought and feeling was, this is so sad. It actually broke my heart. I think the unforgiving Maggie, I think the Maggie that, you know, was angry at him would have been like, yeah, you know what? You deserve that. But the forgiving Maggie and the one that was able to move on, actually, my heart broke for him. And it and it hurt for his family because I saw the face of a guy who never got help and who never dealt with what he was dealing with. And that made me really, really, really sad. And, you know, the second thing I thought after that was, wow. Now I don't have to feel fearful when I go back home. Because the years after that, every time I would go home for a holiday or I would go home for just to visit family. I always just had that thought in the back of my mind of, you know, he's here. He's nearby. I'm sure he knows where my family lives. Like, I really hope and pray that he doesn't come and hurt me or, you know, do something. But yeah. So Christmas day this past year, I found out that he had passed away. And it's a very, very sad, but I also have this relief, that he's not then going to be able to hurt me anymore or anybody else. When the officer had reached out to me, and I was able to talk to him later, he told me that John actually either commit suicide or had an overdose. They didn't know if it was an overdose on purpose or if it was an accident, but that's actually what killed him. And that's what broke my heart so bad was this guy was so broken and living in such darkness that it killed him. And this is exactly what I'm talking about about keeping things in the dark. When you keep things in the dark, they fester, and they literally kill people. But when you bring things out into the light, that's when we can heal, and that's when we can move on. And that's where we grow. We grow in the light, not in the darkness. And so that's what that's what happened. That's how he died, and it's so sad. My story aired in I wanna say it was 2020 or 2021. So that was about 2 years ago. And, honestly, the response took me by surprise. I had so many people reach out to me with similar stories, who had never told their story. They were so scared. They walked through the same thing that I did. And it was really cool to just kind of bring what was in the dark into light and to expose it. And I think doing that kind of took the power away from it. And I love how God used my story to help a lot of other women, just giving them the courage to be able to speak out or to seek help. I think a lot of the time, when we're in these situations, we feel like we have to keep it to ourselves because, you know, like I shared, I was so scared and I didn't know who it was and I didn't wanna publicly talk about it. And I didn't wanna tell anybody about it because I didn't know who it was. And I think that, when you get in that really dark place, you kind of wanna you wanna keep it to yourself. You wanna keep it in your mind. But when you keep things in the darkness like that, they have a tendency to fester and you can't really heal from it. And so I love that. You know, God has been able to use my story to empower other women, to tell their story, to bring it into the light, to dis disarm, just the fear and the anxiety that come with a situation like this. And so that's been just a really, really cool thing that I've been able to experience throughout this entire journey. I've definitely come out on the other end of this stronger, like I was sharing about just disarming the fear and the anxiety, and and bringing the story out into the light. I I've learned a lot along the way. And, I think I've grown a lot in some really cool ways. Like I had shared, I I have a lot of mental illness that runs deep into my family. And so I didn't want to grow any kind of bitterness or anger, in this journey. And I was really prayerful about it and just praying it and and asking God to just reveal all the the the deep in the dark, like, nitty gritty parts of of all of this. I I started praying for the perpetrator, which I know a lot of people probably think that's crazy. But doing that, I grew a lot of compassion for him and kind of saw him the way that I see people in my life with mental illness and that, you know, it is a struggle, and and it doesn't excuse it whatsoever. Absolutely does not excuse the behavior. But I think for my sanity, I had to forgive him to be able to move on. And when I did, I was really able to just let go of of any kind of bitterness, any kind of unforgiveness that I had towards him because holding on to that bitterness and that unforgiveness that I have wasn't serving me in any way, shape, or form. I mean, he had no idea that I wasn't forgiving him. He had no idea that I was so upset with him. So why would I hold on to that and just cause myself, you know, more agony? And, so I you know, that it was kind of a journey walking through all of that. But the more that I prayed for him and I prayed for his family and just prayed for his healing, the more compassion I grew, for him and was able to really, really release this and let go of it. And so, that that has just been, a really cool journey and something that I've been able to share with people too that I have been walking through this. I've had a lot of people reach out to me that heard my story on Strictly Stalking, and to just be able to encourage them into that has been really, really cool. Working with Jake and Jamie from Strictly Stocking has just been such a great experience, And I'm so thankful that they don't, just treat this as a like, oh, you're obsessed with true crime. Like, let's feast on these people's stories. Like, they really are 2 really great people who wanna support these stalking survivors and give them a space where they can share their story. I mean, these are really interesting stories to hear, but I I love that, they they treat, us survivors with just so much respect and check-in on us and just see how we are. And I think that what they're doing is so great. They just offer so much support to people, who are walking through what they're walking through. And I honestly could not be more thankful for them starting this podcast because it was this podcast that gave me the courage to reach out, and to bring my story into the light. So thank you, Jamie and Jake. You guys are so awesome and continue to do what you guys are doing. Heineken is brewed for longer with 3 natural ingredients for that very first. That's refreshing. Heineken. Get the facts. Be drink aware. Visit drinkaware.
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