Transcript
Hi, everyone, this is Gillian with court junkie. Court Junkie is a true crime podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials, using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases. Court Junkie is available on Apple Podcasts and podcast WonderCon. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode three of five of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast, I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me How are you? Hey, man, I'm doing OK. Yeah, your voice is better this week. It was. I was a little rough last week. M definitely getting better. Which is good. Good to hear. Let's go ahead and give our patron shout outs. We had Aaron Hawkins jump out our highest level. Hey, Aaron Tanya Moorman, what's going on, Tanya? Terry Stewart. Hey, Terri, LaDonna Flores. I appreciate LaDonna. Miranda Black. Hey, Miranda. Shannon Peterson. What's up, Shannon? Leah G. Hey, there's Leah Lynn Ryan. What's going on when Jackie Diaz? Hey, Jackie? Tracy Montgomery jumped out at our highest level and good old Tracy Cody Remmers jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Cody, we had Ryan Pesca. Hey, thank you, Ryan. Nicole Lo. Oh, hi, Nicole. Danelle What's up, Don? Big Dave. Oh, Big Dave. China Pelkey. Hey, China, Liane Room. I appreciate that, Liane. And last but not least, Katie went home. Hey, hi, Katie. And if we go back into the mall. This week we selected Megan Camp's CEO, there is Megan Double G, yeah. So we appreciate all that support. We had great PayPal donations from Marc Guest and Guest and Monica Abner. Appreciate that Abner and Marissa stock. Awesome stalker. Yep. Thanks to everyone gives right now we have an episode out on true crime all the time on Robert Chambers, a guy who the press dubbed the preppy killer. This is back in 1986, Chambers eventually admitted to killing 18 year old Jennifer Levin, who was found dead in Central Park after a night out. But he claimed that it happened on accident after Jennifer injured him during rough sex. So this is a case that received a lot of attention. It's fairly well known, and to me, it's very interesting because you have this guy essentially saying that the victim was the aggressor. She molested him and he acted in self-defense. The old testicle squeeze. That's exactly how it went down or so, he claimed. Exactly. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time unsolved? I am. We're talking about the brasher di disappearances. In March 1956, two brothers and their cousin went missing in rural Alabama after a night of drinking. Decades later, they've never been found, and no one knows for certain what happened to them. Although there is suspicion that they were killed by local moonshine, the three men who went missing were 23 year old Robert Earl Dye, 19 year old Billy Howard Dye and 38 year old Daniel Alec Brasher. Robert and Billy were brothers who lived in Fulton Dale, Alabama. Dan Brasher lived in Morris, Alabama. Ever get any trouble with your cousins? No, I don't have any cousins. Really don't have any cousins, either. Oh, OK, I see what you're saying is one. I'm an only child, but that doesn't mean you can't have cousins. No, no. I that on its own, does it. But my dad was an only child and my mom had two brothers and neither of them had children. Really? Mm hmm. And let's say a kind of explains a little bit about you maybe explains why I have no cousins as well as more than that. But yeah, the Dai Brothers parents said they had never spent a night away from home and couldn't have navigated across the city of Birmingham. One relative told the Birmingham News They didn't like to get out in the world, wouldn't even eat in a cafe. Robert Dye had a wife named Audrey. Dan Brasher had been away from home before, but always wrote to his family when he was gone. He had three children from a previous marriage. I get it. This is 1956 we're talking about, but we're also talking about two brothers who are 19 and 23 years old. Yeah, and didn't even want to eat in the cafe. Just didn't want to get out in the world. That's what was said about them. It was a little harder, I guess, to get out in the world in 1956. And you're in rural Alabama, too. Maybe. I don't know. Just yeah, it's like maybe a little sheltered. I can't imagine it was that hard to get to Birmingham, though, if you really wanted to, just sounds like they didn't want to. Around the time they disappeared, the men were working on the construction of the new Highway 31. Their uncle, Rev. Ari Brasher, told the Birmingham News We don't believe they ever left this for Sandy. They didn't have, but about twenty five dollars between them when they disappeared. So they had this twenty five dollars or so between them the night before they went missing, but apparently they had spent all but nine of it by the time they were last seen. This was according to the Birmingham news. Now, some sources differ on the date of the disappearances. Some say March 3rd, some say March 4th. But the majority of sources used for this episode state that the three men went missing sometime in the early morning hours of March four, so that's the date will use. On the night of March 3rd, in the early morning of March 4th, the three men were out. What a lot of sources called making drinking rounds and not another source called it a drinking party. And the Birmingham news called it a drinking spree that stretched from the Robin Wood area to Morris. You probably put on a little drinking spree back in your day. I've been on some pub crawls, but I don't think that's what they're talking about here, and I don't think so. Have you ever been on a pub crawl? Oh yeah. What did I say? So, yeah, I don't even know why. Asked the question. For all I know, you invented them, and but I should have assumed that you have been on a number of them. The three men were last seen in the early morning hours of March 4th at the home of Dan Brassieres mother near Morris, Alabama. There was a party at the Brasher House that night. Ellen Brasher said the men left her house and Billy dies. 1947 Dark Green Ford, according to Deputy Sheriff B.M. Duncan. The men had an argument before they disappeared and they were drinking heavily that night, and a lot of times those two go hand in hand, get a lot of alcohol in here. Arguments tend to break out in my experience happens a lot. Robert's wife, Audrey, reported that they drove her home from the Bradshaw house and let her out of the vehicle in the early morning hours of March 4th. They took another couple, Earl and Charlene Boatwright, to their home near Robyn, with the group, then went back to Dan Brassicas home. Ellen said that Dan and Robert came inside for a few minutes between two and three a.m.. Billy stayed in the car. They laughed. A few minutes later, the men were last seen heading west on Crooked Creek Road. So, I mean, the one thing that definitely jumps out at me is that these men were driving all over the place. That's it. Yeah, I mean, drunk as a skunk is what it sounds like now. It was the 50s, and I'm sure that happened a lot more than it does today. Doesn't make it right. Yeah, I think, you know, they were drinking illegal booze driving illegally. Probably not good. We know it's not good. Not probably. It's not good. The Morris area was described by the Birmingham news as remote and rugged, and Crooked Creek Road was located in what was called the heart of North Jefferson's moonshine belt. This quote refers to Jefferson County, Alabama. Good ol moonshine. So we are going to be talking about moonshine quite a bit in this episode, but I want to cover the events of the night and a little bit more detail. According to the Birmingham news, people who live near Allan Brasher reported hearing what sounded like a prolonged fight and loud shuffling screams around midnight on March 3rd. People who were present at the house said that Dan Brasher and Billy Dye had an argument but were on friendly terms by the time they left. And I just said that, you know, heavy amounts of alcohol in arguments kind of go hand in hand. I also think maybe you can make up pretty quickly. You're drunk, you get in an argument and then you're like, best buddies again. Yeah, yeah, you go full circle. The Birmingham News reported that the fight wasn't all that serious. Billy Dye was drinking heavily and jumped on Dan in the kitchen. Dan apparently slapped Billy down, but they patch things up at least twice during the party. Dan and the guys went out to get more whiskey. The party broke up around 10:30 p.m.. The men laughed in Billy's car with Audrey and the Boatwright, according to the Birmingham news. Andre, in the boat ride, said they went straight to the dye house in Fulton, though it wasn't more than 15 miles from the Bradshaw house to the Dye House. But it was reported that they didn't get there until around 12 to 12:45 a.m.. It's a pretty big gap. It's a long time to go 15 months. Yeah. Obviously, something was going on in that span of about two hours or so. Then the three men dropped the boat right off in Robin Wood. Earl Boatwright said that his last words were to warn them not to go back to the still and Morris, or you'll get in trouble. The men returned to Dan Brassieres house, where three other men had arrived at the party. At least one of them was well known in the bootleg racket, and he'd had trouble with Dan Brasher in the past. Dan and Robert went inside for just a few minutes and quickly left. The three men also got into their car and left immediately after Billy got a few sources mention a party in Robin Wood, and one popular theory in the case is that the men were killed at this party. For example, on March 20th, 1956, the Birmingham Post Herald reported that relatives said the men were last seen at the home of Helen Brasher and Morris. But Deputy Sheriff Duncan said that Mrs. Brasher was the only one who maintain that they were last seen at her house. Others told him they were last seen near Robin Wood, where they took another couple home, Alabama Heritage reported in a 2016 article. They drove off in. Ali's 1947 green forward for a party in Robin, just outside Morris, a 1984 Birmingham Post Herald article also talks about a party more drinking and that they were on their way to a larger party in Robin Wood. Late in the evening, Brasher in the dyes left the party and Billy's fourth. No one has admitted seeing themselves. When the Dai Brothers and Dan Brasher didn't come home the next day, their families weren't very concerned. All of them were known as heavy drinkers. Their relatives assumed that they might have been arrested when they hadn't heard from them in several days. Their cousin, Curtis Brasher, and his father checked the jails between Morris in Decatur, Alabama, but didn't find anything. The family filed a missing persons report with the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Officers thought one factor in the disappearance was the theft of 85 to 100 gallons of moonshine, which was reportedly stolen the day before they went missing. A moonshiner they allegedly stole from was reportedly among the guests at the party on the night they went missing. So, you know, to me, that's one of the three men that we talked about who then got in the car and followed 100 gallons of moonshine. A lot of moonshine. A hundred gallons of anything is a lie. Well, that's true. But you know, if you're a moonshine and that's your livelihood to lose 85 to 100 gallons and you know who stole it? Yeah, yeah, you're going to be pretty upset and it's a criminal endeavor. So my thought is, would they hesitate to do something else criminal, such as do away with that individual? Probably not. Yeah, I don't think they'd lose sleep over it by March 11th. Sheriff's officers were still searching for the three men. We talked about them working construction on Highway 31, and apparently they never collected their last paychecks. So that led police to suspect foul play. Marion Dyer said that he received his son's checks on March 12. They were paid 32, 25 and 51 12, which was the most money the men had ever made in a week. Marion believed that if they left voluntarily, they would have picked up their money. And I always think that, you know, anytime we're talking about an unsolved case, you know, it comes up, right? What people leave behind and OK. Thirty two dollars and twenty five cents, fifty one dollars, it doesn't sound like a lot of money. It was a lot more in 1956. And when you hear that this was the most money they'd ever made in a week, OK, if they're taken off, they would want that money unless they had to get away so quickly. They didn't have time to come back. Yeah, they couldn't wait to come back and get the checks. Or obviously there was something along the lines of foul play right that prevented them from coming back. On March 12th, members of the search party found freshly dug Earth in the Horse Branch Hill area, a few miles south of Morris. The team planned to dig on the 13th, but they learned that the fresh dirt was dug out by a company surveying the area. I think anytime you're part of a search party or your law enforcement searching and you find freshly dug Earth, it's going to pique your interest. It's cause for alarm. You're going to want to check that out, but then you find out that this is not what we thought it might have been because there's a company digging. Yeah, here, just a false alarm. According to the Birmingham news, Deputy Sheriff Dinkins told the press 10 days after the men went missing. There's no question about it. There was some foul play somewhere, and it's always interesting in these cases when that kind of determination is made. It's one thing to think is to theorize it, but it's another thing to tell the paper. Once you make that decision to come out and make it, you know, of record. That's a big deal. What is you're committing to what you're saying? Dinkins said that everything indicated the men were still in the Morris area, but nothing concrete had been found yet. In the following days and weeks, search parties looked at old logging roads, deserted mines and streams, but found nothing. Investigators received many reports and they heard a lot of rumors, but they found no evidence leading to the Dai Brothers and Dan Brasher. A witness in nearby Penson reported that three men were fighting in front of his home around three a.m. He recognized one of them as Dan Brasher. The other two men did not match the description of the dogs. A man in Morris reported hearing gunshots on March 3rd. A man who lived in. Rabinowitz said that on March 4th, some men carried multiple tubs of water from his outdoor faucet into a nearby party house, which didn't have running water. A family member and an investigator believe the water was used to clean up a crime scene. Finally, a man in Blount County claimed he saw a bulldozer burying a car in a construction site near U.S. Highway 79, which was under construction at that time. I think it's going to be hard for a witness to mistakenly see a car being buried. I think it would be pretty clear. Look, they're burying a car. Why are they burying a car at this time? Mistake it for something else? Right? Yeah, I mean, you know, heavy equipment, you see a car, they're not planning flowers, obviously. But the thing that jumps out at me is so we have all these reports, some of them involving reportedly Dan Brasher. We've got cars being buried. And what about this guy? You know where people are just coming up and getting water from his outdoor faucet? He's not. You think one point you're like, Hey, that's my faucet. Why you keep taking my water? According to the Birmingham News on March 16th. Duncan reiterated his belief that the men were met with foul play. He said all indications are the men ran into some trouble somewhere along the way the day they disappeared. Dinking called it the most baffling case I've ever tried to follow, but I get what he's saying. You know, all indications are that they ran into trouble. Sure. They haven't showed up. They haven't collected their checks. Nobody's seen them, nobody's heard from them. I would say it's a pretty safe bet. They ran into some type of trouble. Most likely foul play. Yeah. By March 19th, the search party was starting to fizzle out. The search had started to affect the local moonshine industry, and Morris Deputy Sheriff Beam Dinkins and Deputy Jeff Mitchell destroyed four big stills as they extended the search. I'm sure as they were going through the words of these different areas coming across these stills were like, OK, don't find the guys well, let's go ahead and destroy the stills, which I'm sure upset many. It's interesting that they called an industry like a moon shining industry. Yeah, so just kind of tells you how many people were doing it or how how extensive it really was. Investigators were still looking into the connection with the reported theft of a large quantity of moonshine in the area when the men vanished. By May, the search was mostly discontinued, but family members were still searching and state investigators were assigned to help county officers in the case. Relatives moved the search to a remote area of Blount County after picking up new leads on May 14th, 1956. There were reports that a 1947 green Ford was found burned in a remote area of Blount County on May 16th. The Birmingham news wrote that a former neighbor of the Dai brothers reported seeing Billy Dot drive past her house in the dark green 1947 Ford. A few days after they went missing, the neighbor asked to keep her identity private, but she said she lived near the dyes and Robin Wood before they moved to Fulton Dale. She told the Birmingham News. I was sweeping off my front porch when I saw Billy Howard drive past. I remember telling my husband and daughter I would swear it was him. So maybe she saw the car and thought it was Billy driving. Yeah, I mean, from what she told the paper, she was pretty sure about the identification, but there's really no way to to corroborate it, beamed dink and repeated his theory that the stolen whiskey was behind everything. He pointed out the fact that producers of illegal alcohol would use violence when product was stolen, something that that you and I just talked about on May 27th. Relatives of the missing men started searching a swampy area of Robin Wood. Two families received unsigned letters directing them to an area east of the Robin Wood Post Office. Sheriff Dinkins received a similar letter. The letter said that three graves with bloody underclothes and empty cartridges could be found in that area. Bertha died. The Dye Brothers mother appealed to the sender to write another letter with more details. So yet another case where somebody writes letters or there's some communication to both family members and law enforcement, either from the person that committed the foul play or someone toying with the family and police? Yeah, and I think that's the question. Any time you kind of hear about these types of communications on May 29. Aned undershirt and charred billfold were found in a wooded area of Robin Wood east of Five Mile Creek, where these anonymous letters said the graves of the three men could be found. So I think once you hear that you start to lean towards, maybe these letters are from someone who really knows what happens, possibly even participated in what happened to the dizaine. Dan Brasher The undershirt was the same size in May as the one Robert Dye was wearing the night he went missing. This was according to his mother. The undershirt was stained with what looked like dried blood. The billfold had no papers or ID inside and was burned. Relatives believed it looked similar to the one Dan Brasher had with him at the time he went missing. On June 5th of that year, a group of searchers looked through the underbrush at a church near Bradford after a man from Moors told relatives the men were killed in that area. This man had been drinking when he approached and an uncle of the missing men. He said that the men were shot because they revealed the location of some stills. The relatives said that the man named the killer and others who were present when they were shot. So this man was taken to the county jail for questioning. Dinkins said he was still drinking when he was picked up on June 4th when he was arrested. He denied telling the story, and the search of the church turned up nothing. So we've had a number of strange things already in this case, right? The anonymous letters. Now this guy is questioned because he's telling family members not only that their loved ones were shot, but he's naming people. But then, when questioned by police, he claims up and the information about the search he he gave them didn't turn anything up. So how reliable was he? And he's also intoxicated. True crime all the time unsolved is brought to you by progressive insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Yep. Why are you listening to give me an I talk? You're probably also driving, cleaning, exercising, or maybe even grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you can be doing right now. Getting in on a quote from progressive insurance, it's easy, and you can save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who saved by switching to Progressive saved nearly $700 on average, and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy. 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Start your new language learning journey today with Bap. Right now, get up to 55 percent off your subscription when you go to Babble.com Slash Unsolved. That's Babbel.com/ and salt. We're up to 55 percent off your subscription Babbel language for life. It's the fall of 2017 and Rancho Tehama, California a man and his wife are driving to a doctor's appointment when another car crashes into them, sending them flying off the disoriented. They stumble out of the car, only to hear dozens of gunshots when. Pass them, this is just a chapter of a much larger nightmare unraveling in their small town. This Is Actually Happening presents a special limited series called Point Blank, shedding a light on the forgotten spree killings of Rancho Tehama, where a lone gunman devastated the small town attacking eight different locations in the span of only 25 minutes, overshadowed by the Las Vegas shooting that dominated the headlines just weeks earlier. This small community quickly faded from view and was left alone to pick up the pieces. The series follows five stories of people connected to the incident from a father that drew the gunman away from the local school to the sister of the shooter. These are riveting stories that will stick with you long after you listen. This is a podcast that give me an I know that you'll love and that you'll find extremely captivating. Follow. This is actually happening wherever you listen to podcasts, you can listen at free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. On July 8th, 1956, the Birmingham News reported that Dan Brasher had once served time for liquor violations on the night of the disappearances. He said he was scheduled to help make a whiskey run for a well-known moonshiner in the Morris area. There is evidence that the Dai brothers might have gone with Dan Brasher to the still, brasher was apparently reluctant to make the run because it was what was called a hot pot, which means that it was still believed to be under observation. So obviously that would be a lot more dangerous for sure. Yeah. At first, he refused to do it, but he was eventually persuaded and you said it up front. But you know, it's going to come back around time and time again to moonshine. Yeah. And everything we talked about and all of the evidence does seem to kind of point to the fact that illegal alcohol was involved. Moonshine, you know, whatever you want to call it, white lightning, there's a lot of different names for it. Oh, there is. I know you've tried them all, but it just seems in the sheriff even said so that it's at the heart of this case. Yeah. Now who these men were? Exactly what happened? We'll have to see about just the week before he went missing. Dan Brasher seemed very nervous and fearful. One day three cars pulled up near him, causing him to say, They've come for me this time. He was with the dyes and several other people during this incident. He and the guys armed themselves and mentioned the name of a boss bootlegger as being the one who came after Dan.. However, the three cars left without incident. Just a few days before this incident, Dan was beaten up and thrown through a window by a bootlegger who was closely connected to the chief moonshine. So and we don't have names right to put with these people, but there's no way that there's not a connection here. I know we're not done with the episode, but it's really hard to say that the fate of the dies and Dan Brasher wasn't somehow tied to Moon shining. Possibly the person that they're calling the chief bootlegger and whoever else worked for him. So was a little criminal organization there. Yeah, yeah. I don't think there's any doubt about that. Now, whether they were the ones responsible for the disappearances of, you know, the dyes and brasher, it's not known, but it's a theory. And I think it's a pretty easy theory to make. And it seems like they weren't happy with how Brasher was handling their moonshine. Well, and especially if they thought that he or, you know, the Dai brothers were involved in the pilfering of a large amount of it, according to the Birmingham news. Because the search disrupted the local moonshine business, the Dai family and others received threats attributed to a certain tough lieutenant of the liquor ring telling them to stop the search or someone would be hurt. So you know what we have, like you said, is kind of a criminal enterprise. And right now, their criminal activity has been kind of halted. You know, what criminal masterminds don't like? Is their business halted? Yeah, the flow of product money, all of it coming to a standstill. They can't have that. On September 18th, Birmingham firemen pumped water from an air shaft of a wagon mine in Newcastle in another search effort for the men. The search effort was initiated because a chunk of human hair was pulled from the flooded hole on a grappling hook. Relatives of the missing men found it earlier that month. Jim Brasher, the missing men's uncle, sent the hair to the state toxicologist. The toxicologist determined that it was human hair, but that the original color was blond. Dan had red hair, and the dyes both had dark hair, always a strange day when you find some human hair. But at the end of the day, you're like, Yep, it's not one of their hairs. So whose is it? Yeah, it's like, OK, what do we have a problem here? Well, I get the sense, right? We talk about rural Alabama or any place rural back in the day. There were probably a lot of people who went missing. It was much easier to make people disappear. Oh, for sure, especially in these types of areas where you know if you can successfully operate a large number of stills without. Anybody finding you can make a body disappear pretty easily, yeah, yeah. He had a disagreement with somebody that went wrong, you know, chewed them, thrown back of your truck, take him out somewhere, right? There's no CCTV cameras. You're not going to be caught on a ring doorbell. You know, it just it was a different time and it was so rural that, you know, the chances were probably much smaller that you'd even run into anybody. You can't drive around the area where we live with the body in the back of your truck. You cannot, that's for sure. Yeah, I know you've you've learned that. But no, seriously. I mean, there's people everywhere, right nowadays, right? And I swear they're always watching you. People are always watching. They're very curious. They are very curious. People used to keep to themselves. Not anymore. After the firemen pumped out most of the water, they found nothing in the mine shaft. So yeah, we don't know where this mysterious human hair came from, who it came from, but they didn't find anything in that mine shaft. I highly doubt someone was cutting their hair and just letting it fall down in the mine shaft. Be a little strange. On November 27th, 1957, Jefferson County deputies dug into three holes that were believed to be graves at a spot in northeast Jefferson County. No bodies were found, but the search team found a shirt that looks similar to one worn by one of the missing men. So a lot of searches going on here. I think the one thing that you have to say is there was quite a bit of effort put into finding these three men. Now, some of that effort was on the part of law enforcement, and some of it was, you know, on the missing men's family. But if you just look at what law enforcement did, it does seem as though they they put quite a lot of resources into finding these three guys. Yeah. So apparently, Marion Dye described the shirt Dan Bradshaw was wearing before a deputy showed it to him. The shirt was covered in mud, but it had a gray, green and red pattern, which was similar to a shirt that was given to Dan Brasher before he disappeared on December 7th, 1959. So we're now two years after the last search we just talked about the dye brothers. Parents said they believed a skeleton found in a wooded area of Brookside might be the remains of Robert Earl Dye. Marion Dye told the Birmingham News According to the bell and Shape of the Skull, it's him. He also pointed to a piece of wire on the belt buckle, saying I put that on there myself. Mrs Dye said, I know that belt anywhere. I bought it for him at a Tarrant city store, so I understand the belt. You know, some belts can be very distinctive, especially if they're adorned with something extra homemade, whatever which it sounds like this one was the part that really jumped out at me. Is this guy saying that based on the shape of the skull, he thought it was him kind of strange? I hear that some people have, I guess, you know, oddly shaped heads or I don't know. I've got kind of a ridge that runs, you know, through the middle of mine where it sticks up a little bit. But would you be able to say conclusively by looking at a skull that that's mine? No, but by your belt buckle, I would know that it's true. Weird design you have on it. That's true. I just that that part kind of jumped out at me. The belt I got the shape of the skull I thought was a was a little strange. Deputy Coroner Tom Ellison reported that the parents could not make a positive I.D.. He said that a toxicologist report could reveal how long the skeleton had been in that area, so they were sure about the bell. Marion was sure about the skull, but the parents couldn't make a positive I.D.. Mrs. Dye said she knew positively that her son was wearing tan slippers when he went missing, but the shoes found on the skeleton were black. Mrs Dye said that one explanation for the different shoes could be that Robert was forced to change shoes if they held a gun on him. He would have done anything, they said. The skeleton also had seven teeth missing, and they didn't remember Robert having any teeth pulled at the dentist. The remaining teeth had no fillings or obvious cavities, which indicated the man was younger, but it was said that the skeleton was about the same size as Robert. The skeleton was also wearing two pairs of pants, which apparently was something that Robert did when it was cold. The bones and clothing were partially burned when you take all that in. Sounds pretty promising. It does. I'm just not sure how you make a positive identification of what they had. Now they they did have some teeth. I don't know what kind of ontology or the matching of someone's teeth was like in the 1950s was that of things you would think they would be able to make a mold. But you know, there's no database, right? You can send it around to to Dennis. But you know, how far do you go? On January 22nd, 1960, Sheriff Holt McDow announced that two investigators, Tom Elson and Roy Leslie, would be assigned to the brasher die case full time. So this is like four years old. This occurred after hundreds of North Jefferson residents signed a petition asking for Ellison to be allowed to work the case. A drilling operation started on January 22nd after state safety director Floyd Mann announced that he received the tip that the dyes and brasher might have been buried in Billy's car under the Tarrant Pinson Highway in North Jefferson County. This road was under construction when the men went missing. An unidentified official told the Birmingham News that a construction worker was under suspicion. This person was working as a bulldozer operator when the men went missing. So we talked about someone witnessing a bulldozer, burying a car he did earlier and we also talked about, you know, these men working road construction. Now we don't know if it was this road, exactly, but we know this road was under construction at the time. The men disappeared in 1956. So there's some possible connections. There seems like there are a lot of connections, different connections here and there, you know? Yeah, well, there's there's spider webs that are going all over the place, but their connections are very tenuous. You know, right now I'm thinking of a wall, you know, and you have all these pins in the wall and you have that red yarn string running everywhere. And it's just a lot just confusing. Yes. Yeah. You're not connecting the dots. So to say man said that if they're drilling operations turned up metal fragments from a car, that they would tear out the entire section of the road. That's that's not no small effort. No to literally tear up a highway, that's a big deal. But so they're all in the first team drilled into the shoulder of the highway and found nothing. So they moved on to drilling into the room. They marked off squares over a distance of a couple hundred feet. Fairfax Police Chief Tommy Ward theorized that the killer put the car with the bodies inside into a hole during construction, then bulldozed a layer of dirt. Over the next day, workmen came in and unknowingly covered up the body. Chief Ward was the one who gave the tip to Floyd man. So that's a very interesting theory. And, you know, when you think about it, it would be a very good way to permanently hide some body. Well, and it solves a lot of problems, right? The bodies are hit and the cars hit and problems problem solved. And it's not just in a wooded area under some dirt where they were, they may one day build a house or that may, you know, become a construction site at some point if it's under the highway. What are the chances that anybody would ever discover? It's kind of like the the Jimmy Hoffa theory, you know, being buried under an NFL state, right? Or, you know, something like that. Drilling resumed on January 25th, 1960. Devices called EM scopes detected metal under the highway at a bridge abutment. Highway construction records show there was ongoing construction at the railroad bridge on the night of the disappearance. Sheriff Ward announced that he learned from a source that the foreman remembered a bulldozer being moved during the night around the time of the disappearance. Ward sources said that three men in another car waylaid the men as they left Dan rashers home. His informant told him that the men were killed and their car was driven into a construction site. It does seem as though a lot of people either knew what happened or were telling stories that they thought they knew what happened. There's a there's a lot of people coming forward and said, Oh yeah, this is what happened. I know what happened. And John told me this, and because he said Pete told them that, and I think in a town like that, things just kind of run. Just kind of like the old telephone game, you know, probably easy to believe a lot of stories in those small towns. On January 26, the state toxicologist determined that pieces of metal that were found during the drilling were pieces from the blade of a drill. He performed a chemical analysis of what was believed to be rubberized material and to seek, cover and determine they were just brutal. So they really thought, did they, you know, they had something here? But when it was analyzed, it turned out to be things that you would expect to find on a construction site. Yeah, that'd be a big letdown for him. Drills break, blades break. They just get covered up and bury him buried. And you're going to have roots all over the place, according to the Birmingham Post Herald. The search officially ended on February 5th, 1960. Floyd Mann told the press investigators have convinced themselves that the car is not under the Tarrant Pinson report, so they were hot and heavy on this. They thought, you know, this was the secret spot. But after all the testing, they had to give it up. Yeah, I mean, there's only so many holes you can drill in the road and so much testing you can do. I'm sure it's not cheap, either. No, I'm sure it is very expensive. Well, because you got to fix all those holes. The oh yeah, after you make them. A new surge started at an abandoned mind in Bradford on March 9th, 1960. Over the next few days, officers collected a piece of a ladder, a piece of glass from a 1947 vehicle. Pieces of a burned car in a shoe the size of the shoe was the same as one of the missing men. Almost makes you wonder if, like whoever did this said, let's take this. Some of this over here takes some of this over here. Just make sure we separate it. So if something's found, it's not all found together. Yeah, either that or are they finding things and making them fit more than what they really do? OK, so you have three men. What are the chances that a shoe found is going to be one of their sizes? Pretty, pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good chance, right? Probably pretty good chance. You're going to have a lot of 1947 vehicles in the area. Yeah. Now if you told me it was a 1947 green, you know, if it if it matched, yeah, very specific, that might be different. The old mine was once owned by the family of Mac Ed Moore, who took a lie detector test in March about the disappearances. Investigators wouldn't say what the results were, but said they were more hopeful of finding the bodies than ever. OK, I take from that that the lie detector test didn't go all that well. Well, they got to be helpful. I mean, these law enforcement teams have not given up now for years, right? I mean, and now we're going to jump to 1972. Yeah, because the investigation did stall for a number of years. You know, if you can't find anything, you can't find anything. There's really just not much going on. But it was 1972 when Tom Gore joined the Jefferson County Commission. He believed that a car was buried under Alabama 79. He told the Birmingham Post Herald in 1984, a number of people came to me saying they didn't think the case had been looked at thoroughly and that state investigators had been looking on the wrong side of the bridge on the highway. I felt it was something we had to check out and that it might help ease some people's minds. Two people claim they saw car lowered into a hole on Alabama, 79, and another citizen reported hearing a bulldozer. Around that time, according to the Birmingham Post, Herald Witness Ernest Hornsby told the sheriff's deputies years earlier that he saw a car lowered into a fill on the highway on March 4th, 1956. Hornsby showed Curtis Brasher, a cousin of the missing men, the spot where the car was buried, and then he died of a heart attack the very same day, like he finally got it out and then was gone. There is such a strange coincidence if it is a coincidence, but for me, the amount of resources that go into these searches are just a suggestion that maybe there were over here. And then I think about other cases on how hard it is to get, like one tip. Yeah, yeah. We got tips out the wazoo here and people seeing like very incriminating things. Oh yeah, we're saying they they saw very incriminating things. The tips just aren't leading to to really anything without Sheriff Mel Bailey's knowledge galore and a State Highway Department crew drilled into the shoulder of the road. The drilling didn't start in the spot. Hornsby showed Curtis Brasher. Instead, the digging took place where testing turned up pieces of metal. Sheriff Bailey was irritated that Glau and other state raps started digging without contacting him in 1984. He told the Post Herald I was obviously put out by this kind of foolishness witch hunting, so to speak. Nobody contacted me for a look at the file. They just took some wild guess. The sheriff's department has never drilled or dug that highway. We had the file and there was just no basis for doing that. And I get what he's saying. It did kind of sound like that. Yeah. I mean, this guy. Glau said that a number of people said that a car was buried under there. We're take a look. Yeah. Take a look. But maybe we should involve the police or consult with the police. On Dec. 17, 1975, a crew returned to a section of Highway 79 to search for Billy Dai's vehicle. The section of Alabama 79 they drilled into was also called the Penson Valley Parkway. The crew consisted of Jefferson County engineering crew, state investigators and a U.S. Navy team of mine and metal. Old detection experts, the search started on the west side of a bridge. A probe detected a large metal object underground. Unfortunately, the object turned out to be a gas pipe. Later that day, the authorities announced they were very optimistic they were near the end of the search for the missing men. And there's really not much around this, but I found it to be interesting. I'm just not sure where this high level of optimism came from, and they seem to be optimistic about everything, everything you know, and I get that. But to make announcements and to say, I guess to go as far as saying that you're nearing the end of the search. I mean, what's that do to the family? Yeah, you're optimistic. You're optimistic, and then nothing ever comes from this stuff. According to the Birmingham Post Herald, the search moved to the other side of the bridge, where the witness claimed he saw a car being buried after drilling and testing. Chief of Navy Experts Dr. Kenneth Allen said Our instruments indicate there is an object 20 feet below the surface. Our measurements are consistent with there being an object there. So maybe that's where you know the optimism comes from, but they don't know. It's a car. They don't know it's their car. They don't even know that if it is the car. These men are going to be in there. It was the right car. Yeah, it seems like a lot of optimism. On December eight, Commissioner Tom Glau announced that searchers found metal pieces under Highway 79 in a toxicologist would conduct testing to see if they were part of a green 1947 Ford. On December 11th, officials from the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department and the Alabama Department of Public Safety announced that state toxicologists found that the pieces of metal could have come from a 1947 Ford OK could have come is not definitively came from. No, it's a you're venturing into the area of microscopically similar. Exactly. But I mean, I will say, I guess it's better than saying they they could not have come, but I don't know what they were using to make that determination. The type of metal that was used in cars in the 1940s. I mean, how could it really be specific all the way down to the year? Yeah. And make because then then you want to know what else could it be and then kind of try to cross those items off the list? Could it be a 1947 Chevy? Could it be a 1945 Ford? You know, could it be anything in the 40s? I don't know. Yeah, could have been a septic tank that was made in the same year or the same type of metal on December 12. Excavation resumed along Highway 79, but the search ended on December 14th, according to the Birmingham Post Herald assistant. Jefferson County Sheriff David Orange said We called it off because there was nothing there. All of the search crew found inside the 35 foot hole they dug was tangled barbed wire and metal culvert pipe. The navy experts determined that their equipment detected the pipe. So again, all this optimism were nearing the end of the search for these missing men. But every time just this huge letdown, and it must have been that way for both the law enforcement personnel, but also the family, because they're monitoring all of this, and they're hopeful that at the very least, they're going to get some answers right? And they get nothing. But I like the way that navy experts, you know, confirm that their equipment detect the pipe. Yeah, yeah, I could have put that together. Yeah, we figure that one out without using it. In February 1984, the Birmingham Post Herald interviewed 69 year old Curtis Brasher. Curtis believed that his cousins were killed by the leader of a local moon shining ring who believed that they had stolen whiskey. He found Billy and Robert were buried in Billy's car under Alabama, 79, but suspected Dan was killed a few days later and his body was put in an abandoned mine. Over the years. Curtis Brasher had talked to local residents, including bootleggers. He wrote letters to congressmen, the governor, state attorney general and even the FBI. He offered a $2000 reward for information. He told the Post Herald I believe Dan's over there in that mine where the hair was found. I believe there's a car under that road there in Penson, and I believe the dye boys are probably in it. I think someday somebody will come forward. It's got to. A lot on the fellow's mind to do something like that. And that's an interesting quote because it's something that you and I talk about frequently we do in a number of these unsolved cases. Obviously, there are people out there with information that could blow the case wide, open information that could lead to the recovery of the car, the bodies and also information about who was involved. But why would they come forward now? He says it must be a lot on a fellow's mind to do something like that. And for him and you and I, it would be, yeah. But if you're some kind of big time criminal, is it? That's the question that I always have. Do they think the same way that we do? And does you know their actions, however hurtful they are? Impact them the same way that it would you or I or, you know, most people listening? And I'm not sure it does. So I don't know how many people are then going to later come forward because they have a guilty conscience or for the $2000 reward, because again, you're probably implicating yourself and you're probably implicating people, some of whom are still alive and would not, you know, look too kindly on you for doing that, for doing that. Yeah. And would probably come after you or their family. So to me, the fear in a lot of cases of coming forward really outweighs the the benefit, the getting it off your chest or anything like that. And when I say ways to the person who could potentially come forward. Yeah, I agree with you this. The risk is too high. Curtis talked about the first days after the men went missing the Wednesday after they disappeared. Curtis and his father searched local jails but didn't find the. They filed a missing persons report the next day. Then Friday, they tried to go to a local moonshiners home, but were stopped by the man's cousin, who told them that the bodies had been found and someone was arrested. They soon learned that this was a lot. In a later visit, the cousin informed Curtis that he lied because he didn't want them to see the 1947 Ford in the Moonshiners barn. Oh, that sounds believable. It does. But why would he give them that information? He didn't want them to see it. Why would he then later tell them right? It was there because they would have never known. It's I believe that the vehicle could have been in the Moonshiners barn, but I don't believe he would tell them that because it doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't you just go ahead and let them see it then? Yeah, in the first place. In the weeks after the disappearances, the brass hours and days did their own search of mine shafts, caves and wells in different counties. Curtis Brasher heard rumors that some deputies were connected to the local moonshine trade, which is why he started writing to public officials. That's not unbelievable. No, it's not unbelievable at all. I imagine, you know, over the years, there were some law enforcement officials who took money to look the other way about moonshine, stills or or moonshine activity in rural areas. Here's a case for you. Yeah, I'm sure that happened before Deputy Tom Allison passed away in the mid 1970s. He alleged that former Sheriff Holt McDowell took him off the case because he was too close to solving. McDow had passed away before the publication of the article in 1984. Ellison also said that Sheriff Mel Bailey gave the impression that he would reassign Ellison to the case if he was elected sheriff in the early 60s. Bailey denied that he ever said that Commissioner Tom Ward told the paper he no longer believed a car was buried under the highway. But OME Raines is a retired DPS lieutenant who led the 1975 investigation believed that the highway still holds the evidence they need. Rain said he believed the brothers were killed in a fight at the Robin Wood party and were buried under the highway. He believes Brasher was killed a few days later and that he was buried in a cemetery in. Sheriff Bailey said they searched a grave in a more cemetery after they received word that two bodies were buried there, but they felt satisfied that this was not true. Raines said the sheriff's department failed to solve the case because there was too much money and power at stake. Bailey emphasized that there is no evidence that the former sheriff or the sheriff's department were involved in illegal activities. So I mean, I think that goes. Back to to your point. You know, is it out of the question that some of these law enforcement officials were involved? No, I don't think it is. What I will say is if they were involved, then it means they had a vested interest. Yes, and not only the car and the bodies not being found, but the culprits not being brought to justice or, you know, the mystery being solved because I'm sure it would have eventually led back to them or tied them in that would have ruined their careers, their lives and their lives. Most likely, yeah. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying if that theory, which is the theory is correct, then that's why it happened the way it did. The Post Herald talked to an unidentified moonshiner who said that after the disappearances, law enforcement cracked down on moonshiners and many were arrested. Brasher and Raines told the paper that they believe that the men got in trouble at this particular moonshiners house. But he denied knowing any of the men. So to me, that does kind of fly in the face of law enforcement being involved unless we're talking about different parts. Yes. So you got a small group that was involved and then a different group that decided to crack down. And that could have happened. That could have happened. What I'm saying is the people that were involved, if it was law enforcement, they wouldn't then turn around. I don't think and crack down on all these moonshiners because they would probably face some retribution. I would think for that. On June 1st, 1984, the captain, Donald Haynes of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, flew to Louisiana to question T.J. Chamblee, a man who claimed that he murdered the three missing men. Chamblee indicated that he was originally from Jefferson County, according to the Birmingham Post Herald. Chamblee was drunk when he confessed, which led to the sheriff's department to question his confession. He told the police where they could find the bodies. The police went to that location. But according to Maj. Earl Robbins, right now, it just doesn't add up. We've been there and there's no area like what he told us in this particular vicinity. Now, I've never understood why people admit to crimes that they didn't do right. We know it happens. And was this guy involved? I don't know. It seems as though the police kind of discounted him pretty quickly because the information he provided didn't didn't add up. But I think sometimes they like to try to attach themselves to a notable crime. Yeah, I get that. They don't have anything better to do. I don't know. There could be a number of reasons for it. I still don't understand it. One source told The Post Herald that Chamblee said the bodies were in the Dixon, a mine in Bradford. Major Robyn said that Chamblee was believed to be the same man who had called the number of times with information in the case. But they didn't know his identity until 1984. However, T.J. Chamblee changed his statement on June 1st. He said he didn't witness the murders, but his cousin killed the man and told him where the bodies were. Chamblee said he didn't know why he made his original confession. Going back to my statement of I don't understand why a lot of these people make these confessions exactly. In June 1984, the man named W.C. Wade came forward and said he overheard the missing men planning to steal moonshine from someone the day before they went missing. Wade called the Birmingham news after he read articles about T.J. Chamblee. He recalled the missing men mentioning a similar name when planning to steal moonshine. Wade said one of them? I'm not sure which told the other two he would let them out of the car before they got to this fellow Chambless house, and that he would see the man alone and buy 15 gallons of whiskey from him to learn where his stash was. One of the others said they'd better be careful that he carries a gun and he'll shoot our asses off if he catches this. Now, Wade said he never revealed what he knew because he didn't want to get involved. He had worked with the dyes and brasher at a mine, but this statement conflicts with information that they worked in a construction job. Wade also said that he overheard the men's conversation on a Wednesday and that they planned to steal whiskey later that night, but the men went missing on the weekend. So there's some conflicts there. This is like almost 30 years later than that, he recalls. Yeah, it comes forward and recalls, and I always question that as well. Oh, I have a hard time with that now I get it. He said he didn't want to get involved, but 30 years later, he's OK. Getting involved, and maybe that's just part of our natures to question, you know, everything. But I think when you, you know, you come forward as kind of an informant to blow the case wide open, but a bunch of the things that you say don't match up with the known facts. Well, police are probably going to dismiss you pretty quickly. Can you recall a specific conversation you overheard 30 years ago? I can't recall a conversation I heard three years ago. Yeah. Now, this would have been a really big deal. So, you know, I always have to keep that in perspective. I can remember where I was on nine 11. I can remember who I was with. I can remember what we were talking about because it was such a big event. It got seared in my brain because it was such a big event at the time. Yes, you knew it was going to be a big event. Would he have known that this was going to be a big event? He just heard some guys talking about still in some whiskey. Well, but even a couple of days later. Yeah. If they go missing, is that then a big event? And I'm not saying this guy knows anything. No, no, no. Maybe he does. I'm just it just seems I am saying that I do think somebody could remember something 30 years ago if it was attached to a really big event in their life. That's what I'm saying. I don't know of anybody in this case is telling the truth. Maybe they think they are. And that's true. I'm not saying everybody's lying. Maybe they overheard something, but what they overheard wasn't true. So they're relaying information and then police can't corroborated or doesn't line up because it's not true. But they're not doing it maliciously. You know, that could be true as well. Yeah, really. You know, these seem to be the last important updates in the brasher di disappearances. The case is the oldest active case in the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Cold case squad captain Steve Green told Alabama Heritage in 2016 that any viable tips are checked out. One recent tip stated that the car was buried along U.S. 31 near Gardendale. Deputy spent several days searching the area with radar devices, but they found nothing. So, I mean, obviously we got a lot better technology 50 years later and, you know, to dig up every time now ground penetrating radar. I mean, there are all kinds of technology, but that technology is only good as the tips that police would get of where to use it. You just can't go around using ground penetrating radar. No, everywhere you need kind of at least somewhat of a specific area. And then maybe you can find some. Anyone who has information about the case can call Captain Steve Green at two zero five three two five five zero six nine. So as we wrap, this one up gives, you know, the Dai Brothers and Dan Brasher disappeared over 60 years ago. Yeah, I think it's it's unlikely that this case will be solved. Kind of like what we always say unless somebody comes forward just kind of spills the beans and says, you know, here's what really happened, right? And then that information turns out to be correct. They find the car, they find bodies, you know, whatever. Maybe they do some big highway renewal project and they dig up some section. They're like, Oh, we got a car here, boys. Yeah. I mean, there are cases that are solved just out of pure luck. Yeah, and that's a possibility. But I don't know, 60 years. Most likely the people who were involved are dead. Sure. I mean, at the very least, you'd think they would be in their mid-to-late 80s. Yeah, if not older. So could they be brought to justice now? It's highly unlikely, but it's still a mystery that needs to be solved. Sure, it is. They're still family members. That would really like to know what happened to their their loved ones. And can you recover the bodies, cam? Can they bury them? To me, that's always important, but that's it for our case. On the brasher di disappearances, we've got some voicemails. You can check those out who's here. Hey, Mike, and it's your former co-worker. Carrie and I was calling in to comment on the Erika Baker case. My husband and I have been residents of Kettering for quite some time. We actually moved here right before the incident happened, and she disappeared and I. Just wanted to comment that she was a very special little girl. My son actually had the same third grade teacher later on and her picture was kept on display in the classroom, so she was a very special girl. And one thing that has been kind of running in my mind and my husband's been doing it to whose name is Mike, by the way, we go to the rec center periodically. We actually live within walking distance and we have got ourselves kind of looking around picturing the incident. And there's so much about this guy. Christian Gabriel, that's just mind boggling, and it just makes you mad because he could have gone in so many different directions. I frequently show up the Maya that was referenced in the story. He could have easily gone on 675 to escape the police. His apartment apparently was located in a different direction, and Glengarry actually turns into the recreation center. So how they thought they were going to escape the cops or whatever his claim was, is just mind boggling because it just doesn't make sense to me. As a citizen and as a patron of the rec center, the positions of the houses, something had to have been seen. But then again, the cops may have more information on file that isn't privy to the public. But anyway, that's my four cents about the the story wanted to say. We love your podcast and we definitely keep our heads on a swivel and keep our own time ticking. And I hope you do the same. They say, Oh, I remember Carrie Ann. Yeah, we used to work with her. And, you know, I miss a lot of the people that I that I used to work with. I don't miss going to work. I just miss the people and I don't miss the work. Just the people, just the people. But we appreciate you calling in very much. Oh my god, y'all, you are all freaking funny. Just listening to an unsolved episode. I believe it and give us where you guys talked about how she loved her guitar so much and she named it Harley. And Gary, you asked Mike if he would name his guitar. And he said, Yeah, I'm naming Gary because it doesn't do anything, and it just sits in the corner and about busted out, laughing so hard and I almost crashed the car because somebody stopped really, really quickly in front of me. And I was so focused on how funny that was. That obviously was not paying attention to the car in front of me, but luckily didn't didn't get an accident. And and I am listening to you guys on the way to work this morning. So thank you for start my day off with a laugh because I totally needed that today. OK, guys will keep me laughing. Stay safe. Head on a swivel and keep your eye on tomsic. And they are. Yeah, that was really funny. I got a kick out of it. She got a kick out of it. I see that. Hey, this is Diesel from Wisconsin. You've probably got lots of voicemails on this, but giving you talking about the movie with the dogs in the store and blah blah where the guy had to get out and and then he came back later. That movie is eight below, and it was with Paul Walker and the dogs popped their heads. But there's no warning. With all that really cool movie for you, you should really watch it. And it's awesome. It's heartwarming. You'll last, you'll cry. You'll scream everything anyways. Yes, give me that one, right, Carolyn? But Fergie? This one is for you. You should root if you haven't seen, you should watch the movie Glory Road. It's a really awesome movie just to let you watch it if you haven't already. And do you think we have a little kid own time? Yeah, so appreciate the voicemail and I'm putting that tally down. Forgive me getting one right because we keep a board here in the studio. Thanks, Keisel and I have seen Glory Road because it does involve my Kentucky Wildcats. They're kind of the villains in that story, but not the players so much. But, you know, maybe they are a little bit too. But the coach, for sure. But it's a good movie for anybody that's not seen. It's heart warming. All right, buddy. That's it for another episode of True Crime all the time unsolved. So for Mike and give me. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. All month long on Pluto TV's stream, the biggest Tyler Perry movie spree. Watch your favorites like Madea's Witness Protection and Madea's Big Happy Family. Joy Tyler Perry as he goes on a couples retreat with Sharon Leal in Why Did I Get Married? Or Idris Elba and Gabrielle Union in the Tyler Perry directed film Daddy's Little Girls. Plus, Pluto TV has hundreds of channels with thousands more movies and TV shows available on live and on demand. Download the free Pluto TV app on all your favorite devices and start streaming now. 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