Transcript
We walk in and he's right there, and he sees us, and he doesn't want us to show up at his court for the trauma and stuff, and he comes for us, he starts charging us and we're backed up against the window like, Oh my God, oh my God. And often four or five police officers tackle to the ground, put him in cuffs, and he's just live in a. I'm Jamie Beebe and I'm Jake Deptula. On today's episode of Strictly Stalking were chatting with Athena and Amber, the host of Ex-Wives Undercover, who were shocked by the same man. Both women separately met and married a man who lied about who he was and then stalked them when they left him. Athena met and married the man first, but soon discovered he was using steroids, had jealousy issues, put trackers on her car and even conned her into a fraudulent mortgage. When she finally left him, he continued to stalk her even after he met his new wife, Amber. When Amber discovered he was not who she thought he was and tried to leave him, he followed her, called and texted her nonstop and threatened suicide. Eventually, Athena and Amber teamed up to fight back and will soon face him in court for his stalking crimes. They became friends and started Ex-Wives Undercover podcast to help others learn about the sometimes dangerous and toxic behaviors in relationships. They're both here today to tell their intertwining stories. Athena and Amber, thank you for joining us today. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, Athena, why don't we start with you? Where did you grow up? Actually grew up in a suburb of Seattle in Washington state. I was the youngest of three girls born to my beautiful redhead mother. My father actually immigrated here from Armenia, but they did divorce when I was in elementary school. And so I guess as a result, my sisters and I were on our own a bit during those teenage years. I also had my daughter, Alexis, at the age of 18 years old, first year of college, which was definitely not planned, but the greatest thing to ever happen to me. And then prior to that, I mean, I was just kind of, I guess, the all-American average teenager. I was a cheerleader. I did gymnastics. I played fast pitch. I actually did get married at 22, but at the age of 19, that is when I met my first husband. And so again, we were together. We raised our daughter, Lexi, and that was that. And so I really was ignorant to the dangers of of dating and making sure you knew more about that person before you put too much trust into them. What was life like after your first divorce? Oh man, you know it was. It was. It was challenging, for sure. I had not been a single mom really or solo, and the man that I had married was not my daughter's biological father. I was lucky enough to have him step in and raise her from the time she was six months old, so it was tough. But within a year or so, I just I got my footing, I found my footing and I, I decided to find myself again, and so I was auditioning. I miss dancing, so I auditioned for a local football team. I brought my little six year old daughter with me to, you know, once I'd made the team, I brought my six year old daughter with me to the practices. They were kind enough. You know, all these hot single women were like, Hi, my little girl. Like, they're all so sweet made new friends. And then quickly after that, the craziest thing I actually got bit by bit by a poisonous spider and had to basically like, lock down in my home. It was, yeah, about four weeks I had to stay at home because I was on medication that knocked my immune system out. So that is how I fell into the world of online dating, which there were no apps back then. So you had to physically log in to the Match.com type of websites when you were online dating. What was it about your ex's profile that drew you to him? It was a bit overwhelming to see all of these single men. And I quickly realized that. It was Slim Pickens, and so when I saw my stalker, he just presented himself as a good old hometown boy. He, you know, I think he's worn a baseball hat Seahawks across it. And he had a kind smile and you know, the basics that he wrote about himself. I just didn't feel like he was bragging. He looked kind. And so I think that drew me in and I definitely was attracted to him. So, yeah, so I said, why the hell not sent him an email? I was definitely drinking a few glasses of wine, so I'd liquid courage. When you reached out to him, what was his response? What were your first few interactions like so funny? Because I don't even I'm trying to think if there was texting. Do you remember instant messaging? I lost my voice because I ended up getting two strains of the flu bronchitis, laryngitis, everything you could imagine because I didn't have no immune system. And so we were forced to get to know each other through conversations, first through messaging. Then eventually we started to talk. But I was forced to stay at home for another, like two weeks before I could even beat my stalker in person. And so, you know, I really enjoyed our conversations. It went on and on and on, and he definitely presented himself to be this great, great guy. No red flags from what I could tell at that time. And what was that first meeting like? The date went well. Oddly enough, he brought a friend with him whom which he said that he apologized for profusely for bringing this friend. But he goes on to say which now Amber and I don't believe the story to be true, but he goes on to tell me that this friend of hers walked in on his long term girlfriend having sex with another man. And so he just couldn't leave him because he was drinking. He was out of his mind. He just couldn't leave him alone. But he didn't want to cancel our date. And so I thought to myself, Wow, you are a great friend. You are kind. So. I'm sure he duped me again, but overall, it was a very quick meet up, I had to get home to my daughter. And so again, no huge red flags that went really well and previously had created this like dream vision board. And he, you know, within those first few weeks, he had had every single thing on my my dream board. So I was just thinking, Wow, I, I met somebody who I could see myself with long term, so I was really excited. How long were you dating before you became serious with him? And what were the dates like after? I would say about four or five weeks. It got intense quickly. He was very loving and doting. And as I had mentioned, being bit by that spider, I had gotten sick once again after our first date. I had the flu again, and so we were still on our second date where he wanted to introduce me to all of his friends, which I was very flattered about that. But instead, he actually showed up at my house, which I hadn't like. I'd never given them my home address. And so I didn't know what to make of it. I was afraid to answer the door because I thought he'd run away and never talk to me again because I looked like I was dying. And then on the flip side, I was just questioning like, how the hell do you know where I live? So I realized again later that I think he was trying to see if I was lying, and I think he wanted to come there to see if I was really home or if I'd lied and maybe gone on a date with somebody else. And that would have been just date, too. When did you realize that there were a lot of red flags happening in this relationship? Well, as I mentioned previously, we did really rush into a serious relationship quickly, and because of that and because of the trust we had built previously for even meeting, I think that led me to make a terrible decision, which was to allow my stalker to move in with me temporarily. He had asked if he could move in. I think this was about three or four months after we had met, and it would just be, he said. I believe, three to five weeks max while his home was finished being built in Fremont, which is a neighborhood in North Seattle. And, you know, he'd said he'd been building this beautiful home and there were some finishing things, but he could move in and that his lease was up on the place that he was staying and he didn't want to renew it for obvious reasons. So once I talked it over and thought about it, I did say yes. And while he was there, I just started noticing like, why don't you ever talk about your house? Why are you excited to show it to me or talk to me about the things that you've chosen for a new construction home? Like you're never on the phone with a builder or anyone? And so over those four or five weeks, he didn't act like he was going anywhere. And so I brought it up over and over and eventually surprise him at his work and was like, Hey, let's go to lunch. And on that lunch, I was like, Drive me over to your place, your new house. And that's when he pretended to get this work emergency call. And that's when I knew for sure, like, this house doesn't exist, he's lying. And so he had made up the entire thing, and he promised to show it to me the next day. But he packed up all those things and completely disappeared after he disappeared. When did you hear from him again? My stalker did not contact me, probably for a few weeks. He left me like a Dear John letter, and I was just shocked because in that letter it was like, I don't love you. I know you deserve somebody way better. But the truth was he didn't want to come clean and there was no house. He had no money. So he flipped it on me by manipulating me to feel bad about myself, I suppose. And then all of a sudden, a few weeks later, he asked me to meet up with them, and then he just lays it on thick. You are so much better than me. I am very much in love with you. The guy you dated before me has that beautiful home on the water and and I do have money. But I did lie about building that house because I just didn't think that you would want someone who didn't have more in life. You own your own company and this, that and the other. And for him, and I'm just too good for him, so I fell for it and took him back. What was going through your head when he had left you? And then came back into your life, what kind of impact did that have on you? It was devastating. It was devastating because I hadn't dated, like I said, really a lot. And to allow that, allow my stalker into my home with my daughter, there was I felt humiliated. I felt so much guilt for her. I just felt duped. I couldn't trust my own instincts. Like how? How could he told me he loved me as much as he did and make me believe all this? And then to read that letter was like, I never loved you. I've been lying to you. It was just so hurtful. I remember just walking in and just sitting down on the steps and my daughter comforting me, which again felt terrible to say like there was guilt in that too. So it was it was devastating. And just, yeah, I was pretty much mind blown and just so confused. Once you got back with him, what was that situation like? I would say it was great. He moved right back in again. Not a good idea, but young and dumb. I was kind of happy to have our little mini family back again together, and it was great until within a few months, another red flag pops up and that is where I find out that he is stalking this man that I very briefly dated. And he was sending him like, best death threats. Don't talk to Athena. He was just saying all sorts of crazy things, and he sent it via LinkedIn. And so I end up getting this call from this old friend of mine who tells me this and you know, of course, I confront my stalker and he denies it. But then it happens again. And then this guy had previously dated forwards me the messages, and there's no denying it. So of course, I call out my then boyfriend and he has to admit it. But then again, he manipulates me into I just, I'm so in love with you that I just don't want you. I don't want him anywhere near you are talking to you. And I just I see myself married to you. I just do stupid things. So once again, wow, you really do love me. So naive. Stupid went back to him. And then it was shortly after that finding steroids hidden throughout my house cupboards, in the garage, in his shoes, in the hidden, in the refrigerator compartment that were the light bulbs that got knocked off by my young daughter, where these vials of steroids come rolling out. So I start realizing that there's a lot more going on here, and that definitely started to raise red flags. So after I find out even more, my stalker and I break up for the second time and this is when in my mind, I am done, done, done. And I felt this sense of freedom. And he was begging and pleading to get back with me, and I was so strong and I said no over and over. And this is when he would come to my home. He would leave a bouquet of flowers every single day for at least 14 days in a row with poems, with love letters he would call me. He would text me nonstop voice messages, emails and little did I know every time I would go to leave, it was like he was just pulling up right to my house, which I later realized that I he had put a tracker on my vehicle. He had also seen my text messages and any of my email threads because he put spyware on my cell phone and on my laptop. I just thought, Wow, is he camped outside my neighborhood? And every time, like he thinks I'm leaving, you just kind of pulls up. But now I know. I mean, for all I know, he could have been sleeping in his car still doing that, but it was the trackers that allowed him to know my movements. And then I would say about a month or so later, as crazy as this is, I, it's the Fourth of July and this really nice guy and out on the water and we kind of hit it off. We're both honest with each other. He's going through divorce. I just got out of a really toxic relationship and let's just have some fun. So that's what we did. So I remember meeting for breakfast down the Kirkland waterfront, where this other gentleman had his boat parked at the marina. And as soon as I got up to leave, my stalker walked right in and sat down in my spot and started crying and giving the sob story to this new man that I just met. And when that didn't work, when his efforts of asking him, Please don't talk. Or any more, I love her, I made mistakes, he laid it on thick and you know this, this other guy was just like, You know, I can't, you know, she's told me the things that you've done and that's on her if she wants to be with you or not, I you. There's nothing more I can say. And when that didn't suffice to my stalker, my stalker offered him $10000 to never speak to me ever again. So I got that phone call about a few hours later from this other guy telling me what happened. And of course, I'm just like, floored. And this other gentleman is just like, This is getting really weird, which clearly it was after that my stalker would show up down at the marina. He would stand across from the boat, his this other men's boat, and he would just stand there and watch us for hours making sure we could see him. He would sit next to my car so that when I would have to walk back to my vehicle, he'd be waiting there, sobbing, crying. He followed me everywhere I went. And then when he felt like none of his tactics were working, that's when my stalker went on to the man that I was dating boat in the middle of the night, and he was pounding on the cabin door, trying to get him to come out so that he could tase him and throw me to the water and permanently get rid of him. She admitted My stalker admitted that to me later, and so I don't know what's wrong with me. A lot of things clearly because after my stalker would not leave me alone, I realized that guy I was dating was an alcoholic and that maybe the grass wasn't greener. I went back to my stalker and I let him prove to me the things that he was promising and once again, very big mistake. When you took him back this time, what else happened in your relationship? So very shortly, we're talking four to eight weeks after him begging and pleading, and I want to marry you. I want to have a child with you. I do get pregnant. That is, when he completely does 180 freaks out, does not want our children, starts treating me horrifically. And that's when I actually move to a different bedroom. He will not leave and he will not get out of my bedroom. So I take a mattress and I put it on the floor in the spare bedroom. So my whole pregnancy and I sleep on it and he refuses to leave my home. There's nothing I can do. I talk to the police unless I evict him because he receives mail there in Washington state. That was the only way I could get him out. He wouldn't leave, so I started stacking my chips and everything that I could think I could do to save money so that I could prepare to officially get rid of him and serve him. You know, those papers to leave my home, and that's when he comes up with the mortgage fraud. And my house pretty much goes into bankruptcy. I saved it, I think, a week before it was sold on the court steps, and that was a whole other nightmare. He told me about this mortgage company who was doing these, you know, special zero percent interest rate loans. It was a part of the Obamacare Act, I believe. And so really, he really did not check into this company very well at all. He just wanted to get away with him not having to help me with my mortgage for a few months. And so what happened was this was a fraudulent company and they had me sign away. Basically, I allowed them to speak on behalf of me, the mortgage company. And when my mortgage company would call me, they'd say, Don't answer it, you could interfere with the negotiations. Is that the other? And so I didn't. And then I would say about a year later, things still weren't set in stone and I decide to look into it more and. My soccer and I go to the location where we'd gone before, and they packed up and left. They were completely fraudulent and I had to contact my bank and they said, No, nobody ever contacted us. You paid this other company thousands of dollars to redo this mortgage for you via my stalker, which now I wonder if you actually gave them the money and it was all a scam. So after that, that actually ended after the birth of our child. So I did have our baby girl in August, and it was like my stalker did this, you know, huge change in his personality fell in love with this little baby girl. Now I'm confused and questioning myself. And then he started shows true colors again, and that's when I tried to leave him. That's when he begs and pleads with me that he feels like there's something dark within him. He doesn't know why or what's wrong, but he starts feeling like this around the age of 18. He doesn't know how to control it. And then he just he begged, and he was pleading with me to let him to go, see a doctor and get on medication and just to give him a few months of being on it to see if that would work. And if not that he loved me enough, that he would let me go. And at that point, because we had our daughter and I already had a child from a previous marriage, I felt a lot of pressure that I needed to be politically correct or try to be by not having two baby daddies. And so I I just I went with it and I gave him the benefit of the doubt and I thought, OK, I would do everything in my power so that if it does, and I know I gave everything and so we did that. And on meds, he was amazing. Great. No red flags for a year and a half. We got engaged during that time. But then I would say a few months before the wedding, I started noticing odd behavior again. And this is when I find the steroids again and figure out that he's back on steroids and his behaviors. Weird, he's acting odd, and this is when he goes to Vegas for his bachelor party. He meets another woman there, and I find out about this other woman because I find a burner phone on top of my refrigerator and they're getting ready to go on a trip to Mexico. This woman lives in Canada. And I confront him, and there's a whole fake story that is really his friend that you know this on the other, I guess I do a little stalking of my own because I find her. I try to talk to her, but I can't get through to work. She doesn't believe me because my stalker had manipulated her so much that she really thought I was the crazy one. So in the end, I find out the truth. I leave him. And this is where he loses his mind, even though he had done the cheating, the this and that. Like, he loses it and starts with suicide attempts. He tries to make the contraption from carbon monoxide poisoning in the garage, where my daughter would have found him. She was walking home from school and the police had to stop her. He took her swing, sat, chained, wrapped it around his neck like he was going to hang himself in the backyard and he took his car. He can't swim and told me that this was goodbye. He was driving into the lake to drown himself. Police had to go after him there. Police were at our home often and he still would not leave my house. I tried to do an intervention. Finally, once I got him out of my house, that's when he at once again the same behavior showing up exactly when I would leave. I kept trying to search to find the tracking devices. He knew everything I was doing. He would show up where I was bars, parties, restaurants. On any of my dates, when he found out I was talking to somebody new, he chased me in his vehicle and tried to run me off the road. That's when I had gotten away and ran into this, this boxing gym I was going to. And he is so vain that he would allow other people to see how crazy it was. So I knew if I made it in the doors that I would be safe. And so after that, it was my stalker creating fake emails, getting burner phones to find the men I was dating to send them again, terrible information, wrong information or pretend to be someone he wasn't so that they would meet up with him for, like, maybe a work meeting to where then he would threaten their lives, or if he would want to have a physical altercation with them. So needless to say, my. Dating life did not go very well. Who wants to deal with them? That's crazy. He made it to where nobody wanted to date me and then the smear campaign started after I would take him back. He and he knew for sure the divorce was final. He told anybody and everybody he could tell that I was just a disgusting w***e. I was the one that cheated on him and had six affairs. I was a horrible mother. I was uneducated, just trashy. And I mean, he had. He's very charming and very convincing, so he had multiple people believing these stories, especially his new fiancee, which I didn't even know he was dating. Amber came onto the scene, and she just had heard horrible things about me. So how soon after the divorce? Was he dating Amber? Gosh, let's see. I would think it had to have been a year. Hair care is not one size fits all, everyone's hair and hair goals are completely unique. For me, it's about keeping my hair shiny and healthy as I get older. That's why we use pros because they help us find a personalized hair routine in order to best fit what we're looking for. Pros Makes custom hair care using natural ingredients Proven results. They customize every product in your routine from shampoo to supplements, and I can honestly say I've never been more in love with my hair. First Pro starts by asking about my hair goals. Mine include a balanced scalp and a little more volume. 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And Barry, welcome to the show. Thank you. Oh, yay me. Oh boy. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background before you met your stalker? What was life like growing up? So I actually grew up in Oregon. So Athena and Brandon were in Seattle, Washington, so stayed above me. I grew up in Portland, Oregon. You know, parents still married. Very nuclear family. Everything just great. No big obstacle. So I guess I was needing that in my life. But you know, I did the college thing. Miss little miss perfect kind of just followed the rule book, you know, and by the time the only thing with the rule book is I didn't. I wasn't finding good men. I was dating. I guess you can't player type guys emotionally unavailable. I flock to them like no other. If some guy called me, Oh, he's weird. You don't like him. I want the one that doesn't pay me attention. I want the one. And then that's something on me. But it took me years to figure out it was an issue with me. So when 2013 came along, Tinder had just started. There was no dating apps at that point, so my friend joined. It was probably three or four months of gaining big popularity. So she's like, she called it a networking app. So she was like, You should get on this networking app. I had just moved to Portland and I was in my mid-to-late thirties at this point, so I really wanted to be married, have a family, do all the things that all my friends had already done previously. So I get the app didn't use it, but I was told as a networking app. So a couple of weeks later, I go to Seattle to visit my friend and she's single and she's in the same age range. She doesn't want to do social media, she doesn't want to do Match.com. None of that stuff. And so we had gone out for some drinks. I had been a little old explicated and I said, What about a networking app? Because you can meet people, you know, just for friends like, you know, she was having a hard time meeting people. And so I made her download Tinder. And that night in our drunken stupor, we were scrolling, but I was accepting everybody instead of the other way. I forget, so swipe left or right. Anyways, it was actually on my phone, the app, and so I was like CCC. And she kept saying, Well, this looks like a dating app. I'm like, I know does, doesn't it? But it's not. It's not working out. So, you know, we put it away, and that was that. Well, the next morning, I'm driving home back to Oregon and my phone is blowing up by men, but I had clearly swiped right on or whatever, and my stalker was one of those guys. Unfortunately. What was it about his profile once you saw it again, that kind of stood out to you that made you respond to him? Oh, so just at first glance, he was not my type. He was the exact opposite of any guy that I'd ever been attracted to. And so immediately I wrote them off. No, no, no. I'm not into beefcake kind of guys. And that's what we jokingly call him beefcake. But beefcake kept texting me. He was relentless. He was really sweet, though, and really kind, and he was funny. And so I ended up just chit chatting on Tinder for like three to four weeks. And I was kind of like animals like, how could he be like this douchebag and his pictures? He had the shirtless pictures, the kissy face pictures, like just really douchey. I was not about it, and I couldn't figure out like, why is he so cool? But yeah, his pictures are saying everything else. And so my friend kept saying, no, clearly what you're doing isn't working. You've been single forever. You've been giving these non committal type guys so many chances, this douche bag, and he's actually doing what every man should be doing. He's treating a woman, how she should be treated. He's following up. He's persistent, he's respectful. He's all the things. So they they kind of were like, Maybe you should go up to Seattle and meet him. So it's like, OK, I don't think I'm going to like him. I'm pretty sure I'm not. So, you know, we we met, we had a great weekend, great time. But I still was like, No, not. I just can't. I'm not this. How's this going to work anyway? It's like we're a state apart. It's like about a three to four hour drive. But my friend on that drive home, she's like, He's not that bad. You may not have felt butterflies for him or, you know, just this passion for him, but he seems like a really good guy. Amber, and he's really into you, and you should give him a try. Just give him a try, give him a couple more dates. So I did. And he came to Portland the next weekend and we spent literally from 10 a.m. at a coffee shop until it closed and they kicked us out at like five or six. And then we went to a restaurant and stayed there until it closed. And as the day went on, I was like liking him a little bit more and a little bit more, and I was so salmon. It was crazy. He was kind. He got more attractive to me in a weird way. I was like, He's not actually not bad. He's got a nice physique. He's, you know, professional. He he loves his, his daughter that he raved about, and he would talk about wanting to start a charity for underprivileged children, and he would talk about how he was bullied. He was obese as a child and things that he wanted to do in the future for kids that were bullied like him. So by the end of that day, I was all about him. What are you learning about him and his other relationships? Had you heard about Athena at this point in these first couple of dates? No, he minimized her so much. He told me he was married, but it wasn't until he proposed, like a few weeks later. Then he drops the bomb. So he kept her very. We didn't end on a good note, but he didn't elaborate. It was very quiet, but I did do a background search. But the problem was that it was the whole state of Washington, and he has a very generic name and you can't click the links to see what specific ones are related to him and which ones could be someone else. So I felt like I was doing my due diligence, and I went to him and I said, Hey, a little problem here. Like I know we've only met just for a couple of weeks, but you know, I'm just trying to protect myself and be smart about things. And, you know, this came up on you. Can you explain? And he said, Oh, this happens to me all the time. The information is not correct and they get mixed up and he's like, Let me give you a real one because I'm very high up in my company and they would never hire me if I had any kind of criminal history. So that's how it kind of spun that. And so it kind of made me feel like, OK, then I guess what he's saying is right, and I did not know how to navigate online. I didn't think that any of those case numbers were public information, so I didn't know that you could actually go online and research some of them or do public information requests. And it's a whole obstacle that I later learned out, unfortunately. How soon after you met him, did he propose six weeks? And you said, yes, it was in a public place? Yes. So there was a huge red flag prior to that on our second date. He told me at the end of the night, he said, I have something to tell you and it's something I've never told anyone. Am I? My life is so personal as the most devastating thing that's ever happened to me, and I'm like, Whoa, what? And he said I was drugged and raped. And as a result, a child came about and I'm just like, Wait, I'm sorry. What? You know, it was just like, I should preface this by saying he wasn't claiming that this woman. And overpowered him, pinned him down. He basically was implying she slipped him some type of a roofie concoction. And he basically blacked out where he doesn't remember much, and he felt like he wasn't at a place where he could consent. So it was very gray, very like, I guess something can happen. But he also said she confessed to raping him and went to jail for six months and that the child he didn't owe child support. It was just very like, Oh my gosh, you know, one of those things. But again, he he kind of puts it under the rug, and we never talked about it again. So in those six weeks before he proposed, it was love bombing, it was every day, all day texting me, calling me. I really felt like I was getting to know him every single weekend for three days in a row from the time we got out of work till that Sunday night when he went home because we would just do the long distance I would drive up to Seattle. He come to Portland. I really felt like we were getting to know each other, and he was being vulnerable and telling me about everything so that though he kind of never talked about it again. So right at Christmas, he says, I have another gift. I'm going to give you Amber. It's just it's getting specially ordered. I'm like, Oh, oh, OK. So a couple of weeks after Christmas was right after New Year's, he's like, I'll give you a hint because I kept saying, Well, what did you get me? So it give me hints every single day and my mom picked up on it. I am oblivious, clearly because I was not in a place where I was ready to marry this guy. It only been six weeks, and so my mom, he said something about a halo and she's like, You don't think he's going to propose you? And I remember saying, absolutely not. No. That's ridiculous. So in my mind, all the clues that he was giving me, I thought he was getting me a watch. And so we were in a public place and I had a couple of drinks and I said, Hey, I know what, you're going to get me. And he said, What do you think it is? I said, so watch and I showed my hand and I'm like, Put it on. And he whips out a box and I about died. And we were like, All these people are around. And he he proposes and I had never been proposed to in my whole life. And so it wasn't romantic. It wasn't anything. But I just remember kind of mouth on the ground going, OK, OK. You know, I guess we're doing this thing. And again, even me accepting the engagement, I thought, Oh, well, we'll be engaged for a couple of years. It's all right. We'll just put the ring on and it'll be good. He said, I know we live in different states and I have already been looking for jobs in Oregon. I haven't told you about this, but I got a job with Nike, which is a local obviously company here in Portland, is close to where I live. And he had said he had been interviewing and he had a great job offer. And so he was going to move to Portland. So I was like, OK. But for me, I'm like, Well, what about your your daughter, Sydney? Like, How's that going to work? You know, that's she's only four. And he said, Well, you know what? That's when he starts throwing Athena under the bus. I think I need to tell you about my first wife, and he told me the horrible things about her and how she was so terrible that he would rather move away from his daughter than have to co-parent by himself. And I remember just thinking so naively like, Oh my gosh, that's so awful. I can't imagine. Like, it could be that terrible, and I just couldn't accept him moving away from his daughter. And so stupidly, I volunteered. I said, You know, I don't have children, my family, I love my family, but they're only three hours away. I can drive any time I want. How about I moved to Seattle? And that was such a huge mistake because I got trapped up there for several years and all the lies started unfolding once I got myself up there. How soon after that were you married and was he still telling you stories about Athena? Oh yes. So I remember thinking, OK, well, she sounds pretty awful. I never in a million years thought he would be lying because who does that? You know what I mean? So I just took his words at face value and then once I move there, so I got a job actually within, let's see. We got engaged early January, and by February 18th, I was moved to Seattle, so I got a job very quickly. So, you know, I warned anyone don't make big old life was like life changing decisions that quickly because it'll come in and bite you in the butt. And that's what happened to me because I I thought I knew this person. But once you do something like that, I was financially strapped. I got rid of all my furniture because he already had a fully furnished home and I had a brand new job. I quit my other job, didn't have anything to go back to. So and my pride and my ego, I assumed people were making bets on how long this is going to last. And so I was bound and determined I was going to make this last and it was going to work. But once I got there and you know, we had 50 50 custody, it was every other day all the horrible things, more more information about this horrible ex-wife and she would get off the phone. And I couldn't even tell you if he was actually on the phone with Athena, and he'd be like, Oh, it was the thing again. She said this, she wants to have another. Baby, with me and I'm like, Whoa, whoa, who says that? Oh my God, like, that's not cool. And he would just throw her under the bus. And so it felt like constant drama over parenting plan stuff. And and it wasn't just him. It was like, like Athena mentioned earlier, the smear campaign with these guys is like nothing I've ever seen, and I couldn't fathom that he it was friends, it was family. It was his childhood friends who were talking horribly about Athena, his mother, his father, random strangers in the community. He had gotten to. If Athena's name was mentioned, they would say horrible things. And so I'm like, Wow, she sounds like the devil. My God, this is so bad. It's so bad. Have you met her in person at this point? No, he did not give me her phone number. He did not want me to talk to her because he didn't want me to know what I think I know. So it was probably towards the end of April. We met very briefly at his daughter's gymnastics meet and he prepped me before like, we are not talking to her and her new boyfriend. They're going to stay on their side. We're going to stay on our side. She's a terrible person and it was awkward as hell. It's terrible. And then I didn't have any communication with her. He did not let me co-parent or join in on those conversations. So I just believed all these terrible things for about a year until I reached out to Athena. How soon were you married to him after he moved out there? We didn't get married until 2017, so I moved in 2014 and there was a lot of ups and downs and drama and lies. So with me, it wasn't so much stalking. He had a sitting duck, essentially that was buying all of this information, and he was kept keeping us separated and I was going to not like her more and more and more. And then because I was in my late thirties, I really wanted to have children. So we started the IVF process. So if anyone has gone through it, your hormones are jacked up. You are temperamental. You're emotional, you're everything under the Sun. So I'm so erratic and so many things are not adding up and I felt powerless and I felt by myself stuck up in Seattle and the lies. It was just, well, that doesn't make sense. I'm asking about this child that was from rape. Things weren't adding up, and I start going to the Portland court system like, OK, he said he was raped in Portland. I can't find the documents, and so I'm asking him questions. And then that's when he starts giving me fake, fraudulent court records every time there was an emergency. He had a stomach tumor right off the bat, eye cancer, stomach tumor. Then at one point, he had leukemia. I mean, it was just insanity, and I was under so much stress and I couldn't figure out what was lies and what was truth. And no one was telling me and he had everyone lying for him. And it was just this cycle. I couldn't get out, and every time I tried, I threatened to move back home. He would say he was going to kill himself. And so then he's the only child, and I don't want to be the reason. I think his daughter doesn't have a father. I don't want his mom to no longer have a child because of me. And so it's this psychological trap that happens. It was terrible during those three years. Were you finding out about the lies or did that happen after? I was trying desperately. So this was when I was kind of trying to do my own undercover work. So I was up there about three years before I finally moved back to Oregon, and I never could get the truth. I couldn't get a definitive answer. I met with Athena once, and she's like, No, no, no, he's not telling you this, but then I come home and he'd gaslight me, and then he'd give me more fake documents, and he would have me block her from my phone so I couldn't communicate anymore with her. And it was just insane. So by the time I was mentally like, I feel like I'm going to have a mental breakdown. At the end of 2018, I realized I opened his mail and I had confiscated it from a townhouse when he said he had cancer. And I opened it and I realized that he still had that townhouse, and then I saw a fake Facebook profile so he he would change his name on social media. He would spell things backwards. Or it was very weird now. Why are you doing that? Oh, I don't want to finish stalking me. She's so nosy and there's weird stuff. And I'm like, But that's weird. Like, That's weird. So I end up going to his friend's profile because, you know, like a woman always has this incredible intuition. And I went to his friend's Facebook and I went through his friend's friend list and I saw this profile with his initials, and he had a profile picture of this other woman. And I'm like, What the f? Oh my god. And I heard about this crazy girl that he told me was stalking him from his hometown, and I lost my. Stuff and I ended up saying, OK, so also to backtrack, I'm sorry if this sounds a little confusing. Also gave me fake parenting plans, so I thought that I was following the parenting plan and it said that I was not allowed to contact Athena or anyone in her family because it being contempt of the court. If I did so and that everybody had to use a parenting app. I thought Athena was on it. She was not. He created fake profiles for her and her husband, and he was communicating in this app for about a year. And so I had no idea that I was not talking to Athena this whole time. So in December of 2018, I lost my mind. We had gotten married the previous year because again, it was the same thing. Like Athena, I promise. Like, I'll come clean with everything and everything will be great. And so I believe the dumb promises and it was almost like, I want you to show me that you're in this and that you're committed to me. And it was so stupid to do that, but got married. Then I moved back home to Oregon. Yes, Amber, I'm going to move with you. Nothing, just nothing. There's always an excuse. Houses would fall through. We tried buying houses. Things would fall through. Then he gets leukemia, and it was just at three year. I guess I was four, almost five. I was like, No, I'm just done. And then I found the profile of the other woman and that he had another living situation. So I reached out to Athena finally. And that's when I was like, I don't really care if the courts find me in contempt. I got to figure this out. This is insane. So we start talking. We were made to kind of not like each other. Obviously, she at one point didn't like me back because he would tell her the horrible things I was saying about her. And so it was just, you know, the typical ex-wives not liking each other, whatever. But we ended up comparing stories and every other day it was another shocking lie. And I I was like, I'm I've been with a sociopath for five years. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I am feeling great today. I woke up early, checked everything off my to do list, and I have a date with my crush tonight. I love that feeling when everything falls into place. I have a tendency to feel overwhelmed or bogged down sometimes. But working with a therapist has really helped me find the best version of myself. Me too. Regular therapy has made me feel more prepared to take on life each day. I used to let a lot of little things kind of add up and really bring me down. But through therapy, if I'm better ways to de-stress and be more presence in my life. We talk a lot about the benefits of therapy on strictly stalking because our guests deal with the trauma of stalking. And while therapy works for trauma, it also works for the trials of daily life. I couldn't agree more. And if you're thinking of giving therapy a try. Better help is a great option. I love it because it's all online. I don't have to take time out of my day to fight through traffic and sit around in a waiting room. I can just log on and talk to a licensed therapist from the comfort of my home, and it's easy. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with the licensed therapist and you're ready to go and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge because it's important to connect with a therapist that's right for you. If you want to live a more empowered life. Therapy can get you there. Visit BetterHelp.com/ stalking today to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better. Help each Yelp.com/ stalking. Give therapy a try today. Maldron hotels really are an escape from the norm. That's why we've left the studio to record this for real live at a show. Oh, please take yourselves second old from the park. Join us for wrap up and go stargazing along the coast. Pick up some bits at a local market and cozy up in a snug somewhere special. Wherever you go, you can save on every room every night when you click on Maldron at Maldron, Hotels.com, TS and CS of life. Strictly shocking is brought to you by progressive insurance Alito, most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. Maybe you're hiking, driving, cleaning, exercising or even grocery shopping. Sometimes I even listen to podcasts while I'm sleeping. Now that's what I call multitasking. Well, if you're not in some kind of a moving vehicle or sleeping, there's something else you could be doing right now, and that's getting an auto quote from Progressive Insurance. It's easy, and you could save money by doing it right from your phone. 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I I tried really hard to get her information in a way because I thought I could help save her. But at the same time, she was very good and very kind to my daughter. And I felt this sense of relief that she was present because I knew kind of father my daughter had. So it was a double edged sword. It's like if they break up, then there goes that trustworthy person for my daughter's life. But on the flip side, this woman hates me. She doesn't believe me. And I know how good her. You know, my ex-husband, her then husband is, and how manipulative. And so it got so overwhelming. So when she finally reached out to me, I was shocked because she had blocked me on every platform. So to hear my phone paying and look down and see her name was like, What the oh what? Then I'm reading it and it's like something like, Hi Athena, I just want you to know that so-and-so and I are getting divorced because he's with this other woman. And and I don't remember Amber. Do you remember exactly what it said? But I was like, Wait, what? I think I just like word vomited because I was so jacked up on adrenaline. Like what else don't I know? And so at this point, I knew he had a house that was, you know. And there's one girlfriend. But then when me and her started comparing notes, then we found out another girlfriend. Then we found out his daughter was a part of it the whole entire time she was between the time they divorced, when she was two till she was nine, when when him and I split, she was lying for her dad. She had multiple bedrooms and these women's homes, and she was made to lie so every night. I always thought it was weird. I said, How come we don't go in at night to tuck Sidney into bed and kiss her and whatever? Read a book and he'd be like, Oh, she just loves you so much, amber. She'd rather you go by herself or you go by yourself. So I would go in, kiss her, and I love you. Then he would go in and he would stay in there for like 30, 40 minutes sometimes. And I thought, Well, what's taken so long? Oh, she want me to read a book. She wanted me to sing some songs, but what he was really doing, he was quizzing her. OK, Sydney, I'm going to be mom. Hi, Sydney, what you do over the weekend. And she'd have to practice what she'd say and then he'd say, like, OK, now I'm going to be amber. Hi, Sydney, what you do. You know, whatever. And she would practice until she memorized it, and she couldn't go to sleep until she got everything right. So we were just dumbfounded at every other thing, like, did he have cancer? No, he did not have cancer. Did he have this? No, he did not have like, Oh, I can't even tell you, was he raped? No, that never happened. And then all while he was trying to carry on this, this fake false life and fake story, I would get the threats. The death threats constantly keep your mouth shut. Don't say anything. And I would constantly say, you better tell Amber the truth or I will. And so it was him rushing over my house, pounding on my door, trying to get into my house. And then the emotional pleas crying, begging and then wanting to pay me off to not tell her the truth. So I got it on the back end during their relationship as well. And then my child did not know what to believe because he carried on this the storyline in front of his wife, Amber, where she was hearing all these things and thinking, Is this true? So it was hard because when she come home and think that I had done these terrible things or I was this other person. But then when she was young, she's very little. And so then deep down, over time, she started realizing what her father was doing was wrong. And during the uncovering between amber and I, I mean, yeah, there was a three year relationship he had off and on a two year relationship, off and on a woman in Norway. So in a whole other country, you know, he had spent time with that woman who flew in to California and made up this whole story to his wife, then amber, that CPS had taken Sydney away. So he said he had to come up from Oregon to Seattle to deal with the whole CPS thing. But really, we were in Hawaii on a family vacation. So when she came back looking all tan, you know, stepmom of amber is like ginger. You look good, like, you know, like, are your everything OK being loving and nurturing? And then finish clamming up and like running up the stairs like, I got to go by and trying to remember what to say, what not to say. And soon Sydney just stopped communicating and talking, and she never knew, you know, she didn't want to get caught up in the wrong storyline and then suffer the wrath. Of her father, so it was just a big mess after you left him amber and you moved away. You reached out to Tina. You guys were talking, finding everything out. How long did that go on for and what was your relationship, amber with your stalker at that point? So in 20 December of 2018 is when we kind of opened the lines of communication. And I was full steam ahead. I'm divorcing him. So at this point now I'm in Oregon. He's got a townhouse in Seattle, so he's living up there and he's stalking me. He's calling me obsessively, Please, please, please. I love you. I love you. And just like with Athena, he said, I have a darkness within. So this time I'm just thinking he's a mentally ill person. This is nuts, and there is absolutely something wrong with you. And I went to the doctor. Unfortunately, I was still trauma bonded with him, and I felt like if anyone's going to get him to get help, it would be me because he was so desperate to get me back. And so I went to Seattle doctors with him. He was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which is the cluster B, same as sociopath psychopath narcissism. I didn't know anything about that diagnosis, and the doctor said, Oh, this has a great, you know, recovery, right? No big deal. And he really downplayed it. My mom was like, Amber, please don't go back to him. Don't do it. And I did for about three weeks until I couldn't handle it. But during that time, he Athena had gotten a restraining order from seeing the daughter until he got mentally well and they were coming up with a temporary parenting plan so that she would be protected moving forward. So his behavior just in the barrel, like in the tubes, it just it was scary, and I started writing in a journal and I would write, he's threatening to kill Thena if this goes on any longer. He's saying things like if she goes missing, you'll know why. You'll know who did it. And he would. I mean, throw things. He was so erratic and I'd never seen that before in the five years prior. I remember just writing like, I don't know who this person is, and he's spiraling, and I don't know if he's taking his medication. I don't know what's going on, but I'm scared. And so after three weeks done, I just I failed. And I told Athena and everything what was going on. And then, you know, I took his daughter to Disneyland and she couldn't see him, and she wanted to give him a souvenir. So I said, Listen, baby, I'll drop you off at your mom's. I'll I'll get your souvenir to your dad. I was just like, I just I just want to be a part of this anymore with him. Unfortunately, I went inside of his home to give him the souvenir, and I wanted in a weird way. I wanted him to tell me because I was learning stuff with it, with Athena about various women and all these lies, and I kind of wanted to hear it from his mouth. So I went in and while we were there a couple of hours later into the conversation, he's unloading everything that's going on and everything was fine. And then one of his girlfriends texted me and I started reading the message and he lost his s**t. And I'm like, Well, she texted, You texted this to her today. So can you? You know you're telling me you want me back, but you're texting kind of verbatim. You've been telling me. So he gets up and he goes to the kitchen and he grabs a knife. And he says, If you say one more word, I'm going to kill myself right now. And so I stopped. And then he proceeded to just throw things across the room, the veins and is now popping out, and I was horrified. And I tried to get out and he trapped me in his home and I couldn't leave. And so then I start panicking. I'm bawling and I finally get away and I run down the stairs and he stops me and slams the door shut. And he said, if you take one step out of the store, I'm going to go over and I'm going to kill that B-word Athena. And I'm going to go kill the mistress. And I don't think I was really thinking appropriately at that time. I just I raced out of there, got my car and was down the highway to I-5, down to Portland. And I texted, Athena is like, he's lost his mind. He's obviously lost his mind. And then a few minutes later, I get a text from the messages saying, Did you get a call from the police? And I'm like, No, why? What's going on? And she said he was suicidal, and now they're on a hunt to find him. And they have their casing Athena's house, they're casing the mistress's house and they're worried for their safety. So it was horrific when that was happening. Were you scared for your life? Did you think you could turn on you? Honestly, my brain, I couldn't even think. I wasn't. It wasn't sinking in. It took me a few days actually of got really sinking in that he could have killed me and himself in that apartment that night. And I kicked myself like, why didn't I call 911? Like, why didn't I do this? And so it's it's pretty devastating to like, look back on your actions going, I should have, you know, because I would never have forgiven myself as something would have happened to them and I didn't call, but it was starting to sink in at that moment when they got him and put him in jail. And then the court proceeding. Started happening, and that's when it really was like, this guy's so much worse than I ever could have imagined. So when they caught him and put him in jail, that was for what? Well, it's attempted murder. Well, I don't know if it's it's considered that because he's it wasn't. I wish she was dead. It was. I am going to do this. It was a threat of him. It's like a death threat, essentially. Yeah. And I had a restraining order at that time. So if you even just voice those words, then it's a violation of my protection order, which is grounds to be arrested. Yeah. And in trapping me in his home was another charge. So and the two of you were kind of working together against him at this point? Yes. Yeah. Really, to get my daughter safe was the the main priority, really. And just to safely separate ourselves from him. Amber, did you know when Athena had filed the restraining order against him? I was aware of that. That was in December when I pulled the plug. I was aware of that. But what's crazy is during the court process, you know, of course, now it's my turn to be the awful evil most recent ex-wife. So I was now the new Athena. And so the new mistresses were all thinking I was the devil. And you know, we'd go sit there in court with the prosecutor and they would say, I'm jealous and I'm just vengeful because he left me for another woman. And it was, you know, the whole smear campaign started with me. But in the very first court date, I remember me and Athena sitting there, and the prosecutor said, Did you all know that they, Mr., has an upwards of 16 restraining orders and harassment orders filed by various women since 1998. And I about died because I did a background search and none of that stuff came up. None. And he has since gotten more. Were you guys working together and going to these court dates? What was it like for the both of you? Oh my gosh. I have never had any court experience my entire life. I've never. I'm just the straight laced person. So it was all a new thing for me. And, you know, he tried to file a retaliatory restraining order on me, so I couldn't contact his daughter. So, you know, I'm just I didn't even notice that you're on her was so ridiculous going in there like, I don't know what I'm doing. Nothing is like, Yeah, I got this. I've gone to court many times with this man. I got this. So we were kind of a yes team, but it was scary. It was scary because lawyers are man. The defense lawyer for him, they will paint you out to be the worst uncredible human being out there. So I remember just being embarrassed and horrified, and I just wanted to scream like, This is not the truth. This is absolutely false. And you are believing this predatory man who's lying to everybody. And this court. So we had to just sit there and take it. We were sitting there and our stalker comes and sits directly behind us, and we can just feel his eyes burning in the back of our head. And he's just so pissed that I'm sitting next to his wife. Oh my gosh, he hates me so much. So I knew there would be a response. And because I wasn't the one going before the judge on that specific day, I didn't feel as scared as I normally did. For whatever reason, I had a little bit of inner strength because Amber had helped me with continuously being a contact for me while I tried to protect my daughter and to get that protection order, she wrote statements for me, and so I wanted to do something for her in return. So when she tried to get it to where Amber couldn't see his daughter, I showed up there, sat next to her and at one point said, Excuse me, your honor, may I speak, walked up there, and she probably just about shot himself. But I said, I just want you to know that Mr. has no authority and cannot state whether or not Miss Rasmussen is allowed to see our child because right now he has a restraining order against her, which means I make all parental decisions. And so this case just has no relevance. No, I mean, no, it's not happening. And so, oh man. After that, they could tell the bailiffs were nervous that he was going to talk. So they definitely walked us out of that and that was dismissed. Thankfully, Amber had that case dismissed, and then moving forward, our soccer would continue to key my car, threaten my life, send me fake text messages. Still, he hated me so much. He blamed me now, obviously blaming me that his wife and the other girlfriends broke up with him. Like, it's my fault that he put his win and these other women. And so, Evan, I started becoming really close because nobody could understand the bond we had because our life passed with him were very, very similar to the time frames. Just the trauma. And so she would come over and stay the night and then we go to. We'd stay up late having drinks and laughing and just telling the craziest stories and being shocked every moment of what the actual truth was. But this day this morning I'm driving, we're pulling to the buffalo port and here comes our stalker driving in the opposite direction. I'm so freaked out. I like swerve. I'd like this thing really. Swerve, we go up on the curb. Amber and I are screaming. Finally found a parking spot, so I'll put it Park. We try to compose ourselves. We go in, we walk in and he's right there and he sees us, and he doesn't want us to show up at his court for the entrapment and stuff. And he comes for us. He starts charging us and we're backed up against the window like, Oh my God, oh my God. And also then four or five police officers tackling to the ground put him in cuffs, and he's just livid. And we're just mouth on the ground like, what is happening? This guy is nuts. Yeah, because he's not allowed to speak to us because we had a temporary no contact order, domestic violence and crime against him at that point. So he's not even allowed to speak to us. And so this man that Amber Heard recognize and talk to, he was kind of monitoring the line, the security line. As he walked into the courtroom, she saw his name Typekit. He was, Oh, hi, so so like, I'm going, who's been talking to you? And so we kind chit chat it. And so he realized who we were. We were the two women. You know, she's Oregon. I'm Washington. And. And so I guess we were kind of a hot commodity in the inner circle of the police department in the courthouse, we come to find out. And so. So then when he sees our faces, when this officer sees our faces and how we were just frozen in fear, he just grabs little radio and calls them in. And these police officers had grown to hate him. I mean, in the later court proceedings, they would all like, say, OK, if he does anything I'm going to tackle in this time and the other one be like, No, I'm going to take him down this time. And because they could just they just learned all the horrific things he had done to avoid myself, my child and so many other women. So, yeah, there was many more of those events where he would try to scare me from attending the child custody hearings at the exact same time I was dealing with the domestic violence. I was also dealing with the family law stuff, and he came at me in the hallway when he thought nobody would know. And I just had a breakdown. He escaped the courthouse in King County. The police couldn't find him and got away that time, too. He also evaded the police when they were going to arrest him at the courthouse, where they had to put my daughter's school locked down and I had to go get her and hide until they found him. So this went on and on and on. All month long on Pluto TV's stream, the biggest Tyler Perry movie spree. Watch your favorites like Madea's Witness Protection and Madea's Big Happy Family. Joy Tyler Perry as he goes on a couples retreat with Sharon Leal in Why Did I Get Married? Or Idris Elba and Gabrielle Union in the Tyler Perry directed film Daddy's Little Girls. Plus, Pluto TV has hundreds of channels with thousands more movies and TV shows available on live and on demand. Download the free Pluto TV app on all your favorite devices and start streaming now. Pluto TV drop in. Watch Free. Maldron hotels really are an escape from the norm. That's why we've left the studio to record this for real live at a show. Oh, please take yourselves second row from the public eye. Join us for wrap up and go stargazing along the coast. Pick up some bits at the local market and cozy up in a snug somewhere special. Wherever you go, you can save on every room every night when you click on Maldron at Maldron Hotels.com teases sees fly. He gave me a book on art forgery. I found myself drawn to these old masters. How did these artists take paint from a palette? Arrange it on a canvas. I began to unlock the secrets. I was storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion presented to a experienced expert. Manipulate his mind and convince him and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine. We flooded the market with my paintings, and I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling, and eventually the FBI will led to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me, but they never actually got you at this point. You sold a lot. You've got like a million dollars in cash. You sold one painting for seven hundred and seventeen thousand. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? How are we having this conversation? I guess that's the greatest story of all to hear how Ken Peretti made millions in art forgery dodged the Mafia and the FBI. Subscribe to The Jordan Harbinger Show and check out Episode 282 in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. Where does your court case with him stand right now? So the incident I was talking about earlier, the entrapment and that whole incident, it was wrapped up in 2019 and myself and Athena both got five year no contact orders, thinking that that piece of paper is going to protect us. So he he was still terrorizing like she said he would kei cars. I fortunately, had a state in between, so. And he also knew I had a police officer brother in law, so she didn't stalk me as much as the women, the girlfriends that were left in Washington and Athena. It was during this time he would just get away with everything right, like he would do all the vandalization and we'd catch him on like security cameras. And you couldn't see his face well enough. So it wasn't prosecutable and he'd let various girlfriends let their animals out. He put one on slut shaming website, but you couldn't prove it because it was a, you know, out of sight, out of jurisdiction. So it was like the dirty where it was like a different country or something. But we started kind of having this little network of women and more and more women were coming out of the woodwork and more and more information. So we just kind of had this huge, elaborate, intricate story happening and we would all share our stories and we'd all help each other because other women had to get protective orders as well. And so we would write, you know, on their behalf and they would give us their information, their text messages and all their proof because it took so much time to stop them, but nothing really stopped him. He would get a slap on the hand and they'd tell us, Oh, you know, if he violates that restraining order, he's going to jail right off the bat and we'd call repeatedly, and nothing would happen. Absolutely nothing until recently. So in 2020, my sister was shot murdered by her husband of six months. She was only one year older than me, and it was. It was horrifying and the hardest thing obviously I've ever been through. And at that point, Amber and I had talked about writing a book or sharing our story in the podcast platform, possibly, but we hadn't put it into action so much. And you know, we were scared too, because he was retaliating all the time and we were always in fear. I lived very close to him, so I knew you would come after me. So it was scary. And so Amber reached out to me and just said, I really think it's time we share our story, and we both decided that the risk of our safety was worth telling the story to help protect other people and honor of my sister. And so that's what we did, and we launched the podcast. We started working really hard on it. She was murdered in May of 2020. We started really hard that summer and launched that following October. And once that happened, that was a whole new whirlwind of stalking because soon enough, our stalker found out and did everything in his power to shut us down. And we did use a fake name, too, because we were scared and we consulted as much as we could on First Amendment rights and everything. But even with that, he had been embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars and we knew he had money to do so. Even if you are crossing your t's and dotting her eyes, you still could get pulled into court and it could be a very expensive litigation. And so we were scared. And so we did use a fake name initially, but then he caught wind. Tell me a little bit more about what you guys are doing on ex-wives undercover. So initially, yes, it was. Our story is two seasons. It's a it's a lot. She was within five years, I was within five years. So we do go into the weeds and all the juicy details of how the dynamics and how it all came to be. About halfway through our first season, it was gaining traction so much. And then of course, everyone wants to know who it is. And we saw a woman that joined our private Facebook group and we're like, Well, who's she like? You know? And it turned out to be a woman. He was dating in California, so enough people in Seattle area knew who that pod cast person was. And so he he kind of spread his wings, so he started going to another state. So when we learned about this woman, that's when we felt like, OK, well, are we doing a disservice to women? Yes, we are telling our story and we can talk about the red flags and everything we've learned. But he's still loose and no one knows his name. And so what a hypocrite we are for not protecting someone. So we did allow him and use his real name, and she learned about us. So we were put in contact with her, but she still stayed for about a year. So we try to keep the communication lines open with her. He's so good, and only we know, we know exactly what it is. I stayed five, she stayed five, and it's a very sick and toxic abuse, and he comes across as this very caring, wonderful human being. And he's so good at his lies that you believe him. So we just kept the lines open. But. Words, the end of cash, when was it at the end of 2021? Mm-Hmm. Yeah. She said, You know, he's showing up everywhere that I am. I'm trying to break up with him and we're like, Oh girl, you got a tracker on your car. You got spyware. And so we started coaching her and she was taking our advice and cash march of 2022. She finally had enough. We talked her in getting a restraining order in California, and he attacked her that night and he was going to harm her. You can look him up online. It's bad he's still going through litigation as we speak. But if it wasn't for us helping her, she very well might not be alive today. And so right now, we're kind of waiting on his sentencing, but the podcast, we just started getting such good feedback. We just start telling other women stories. So that's kind of where we're at now is kind of going beyond our story and hoping to change laws in the future change, you know, because honestly, the reason he's in California jails, because California has much, much stricter laws about stalking and harassing than Washington or Oregon, where we live. So he got to skate by for a long time, but he really messed up when he chose California to go to. When our listeners no doubt will tune in to ZEVs Undercover and Ben, where can they find your podcast? Oh gosh, we're on pretty much every streaming platform. So Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Google. If anyone out there wants to get a hold of you or talk about their story or just, you know, need some help or something? How did they find you? I would say the easiest way is just to go to ex-wives undercover accom. There's a contact form there. We're on social media. You can always contact us there as well. But that's probably the two easiest ways. Do you feel that your podcast and what you're doing shatters misconceptions about how ex-wives can get along and basically unite together for a great cause? Absolutely. That's probably the most important things. You'll hear us reference our fans as ex fans because we want to create a sisterhood where we band together. And in my experience, I've seen men do that more often than women. And it's frustrating because, like Amber said, if we just communicate, have each other's back, like what's? That's going to be your best outcome. And so I do want that message to really come across very clear because I did know my ex before this, you know, the stalker, his wife and I got along great, you know, and there's no crossover with why one another wasn't with each other. We got along so great that I got to experience how healthy that was and how wonderful that was for children. And so that's how it should be. And so I guess the big message is, you know, if the person you're with is bad mouthing and trashing their ex red flag and to keep the lines of communication open and talk to that other person that other the new spouse, the ex spouse, do it for the children. Do it for yourself. Amber, what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of the magic of our show too is everyone loves the friendship. I mean, I consider it one of my best friends now, and we realized that we're so much more alike than we ever knew. And if people would just think about that, it's another human being on that side and we we tend to pit one another against, you know, especially as women. Sometimes it's the ex is always the bad one, and he's such a victim and always think that there's two sides of a story in any relationship. We know on the podcast you guys give out a lot of advice and information, and you've learned a lot about this. What advice can you kind of leave our listeners with about, you know, what you've gone through, either how you've gotten through it or anything that they can do to kind of get to this point where you're at. If you feel like you're in a similar situation, you're seeing red flags, you've got this gut instinct that something doesn't feel right. Well, listen to it. Your senses are your best friend. So even if you don't want to maybe dig in just a little bit, you can do it on your own. Privately, you don't have to go out and share it with the world, so you look like a crazy person later if it doesn't come to fruition. But you know, why not check up on that person? And the other thing is, if you are being stalked, then it's very, very important to create a safety plan. So with my daughter, when she would be with her father if she was in trouble, she would text me capital letters to delete it quickly. And then she would text and lowercase whatever she felt safe that her father could see. So even something like that, we had a listener reach out to us who also said, Thank you so much for everything you've shared about safety plans because I reached out to my best friend three days ago. I told her about it and I told her, if anything goes down, I want you to text me this word, just that word. We don't have to talk about it ever again. Delete this. Three days later, her friend texted her the word. She said, I'll send the police to your. I'll say, do he completely just battered this woman, almost killed her, but because she was able to have that safety plan with her girlfriend, they got there in time to save her life. And so, yeah, create a safety plan if it's not a word or a way of messaging or just change up your patterns, how you how you get home, where you go, where you park, let people always know where you're going. Turn on your tracking on your cell phone. I mean, shoot our cell phones. Love to track us. So you might already be being tracked up knowing it, but I know you can physically turn on the settings. Just, yeah, sharing that kind of information if you travel. Same thing. Make sure people know where you're going. We're going to be staying at least one person, and I will add to that and that it's so important to have documentation of everything. I'm talking everything. I started scanning documents, the fake documents that he gave to me and I saved them. And it's also important not just to save them on your phone because we know that these types of guys use spyware, so save all of your information on a hard drive somewhere. This protected, give it to a family member to store in their safe deposit box or something and save it for years because you never know when you're going to need something down the road if you're having parent issue parenting issues or something like that. So documentations really, really important. I think also something I've learned is it's not easy to look up people online. The court systems are all separate. Every state in every county has a different system and some are easier to navigate than others. And as just regular civilians, we don't know what we're privy to. You can do an information request that is public information. If it's in the court systems, it's public information. So we actually had a detective on and she said, don't go to people, search whatever and do those $40 background searches because they're not thorough. She said, Go to your state police, ask for a criminal no check and also have them run an FBI check, which will be national and then take. They'll give you a list of every case number for that person. You're granted. You're going to need to know their birthday and their first and last name and everything. So once you get that case number list, then you go to the case where all those events are happening and then you do a public information request and they have to give you the details. And then lastly, I think our pride plays a part in staying with these guys for so long. I didn't want to be publicly humiliated. I had blasted to everyone. I was engaged and I wanted everyone to think I was in this great relationship. So sometimes you got to think inward to your yourself. Is it going to be the end of the world if someone knows that you made a mistake? No, it's not. It's better to get out than stay five years or 10 years or whatever it is and be in an unsafe place. Really have that network of family and friends that are there for you. Like, my parents never made me feel bad for staying, and not everyone is as lucky as I am, so I know it can be isolating. But keep your tribe close and don't let your pride and ego get in the way. You know it's time to end things and it keep yourself safe. Based on the work that you're doing, what's next for you? Gosh, we are optioned for a docu series. And with that, we really see a spinoff with our X-Files, which is the podcast where we share other women's stories. And in a recent season, we didn't realize it was actually she was in a current situation, so we had to guide her and help her escape from this physically abusive man. And we were a support system. She's amazing and, you know, he ends up beating her up halfway through filming the season, and we kind of went on a journey with her and she tells us we saved her life and we, you know, we spoke with her family. It's I would love for us to do more of that too and help in that way if we're going to continue to do that. Obviously with the podcast, with The X-Files and then with after the docu series, I'm hoping we do more of a docu reality type show like that. Yeah, and something that's just important and time permitting. We would really like to get more involved in changing laws, stalking laws, TV, domestic violence related laws. Athena and Amber, thank you so much for the work you're doing and for joining us today. Thank you for having us. Thank you, guys. If anyone out there is in need of help or is a victim of stalking? Please reach out. You can find a list of resources on our Instagram at Strictly Stalking Pod if you'd like to share your story with us and strictly stalking. You can reach us at strictly stalking pada gmail.com that's strictly stalking pod at gmail.com. As a listener of Strictly Stalking, Please Leave us the review and ratings five stars on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen. I'm Jake Deptula and I'm Jamie Baby. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of Strictly Stalking.
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