Transcript
Special thanks to Peloton for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger and this is skeptical. Sun, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show We're Fact Checker and comedian David S. Smalley and I, well, we break down a topic that you may have never thought about open things up and debunk common misconceptions topics such as why the Olympics are kind of a sham, why expiration dates are nonsense, toothpaste, chem trails, recycling banned foods and a whole lot more. Normally on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We have longform interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers. If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show and of course, I appreciate that I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes organized by topic that'll help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on the show. Persuasion and influence disinformation and cyber warfare China, North Korea, Abnormal psychology Just a few of these starter packs right there for you. Just visit Jordan Harbinger.com/ start or take a look in your Spotify app to get started today on Skeptical Sun. Well, we all want to feel better, but we also hate going to the doctor. This is why we cringe at that first whiff of hospital air, which I can only assume is made up of anesthesia and embalming fluid with a splash of influenza. So when somebody comes along and says, you know, we can make you feel better without all that traditional medicine stuff and you'll hardly know you were here, that is pretty enticing. You wrap that up with a strong cultural connection. You call it alternative medicine and you've got yourself a winning combination. Plus, hey, it's totally cool to be able to wear a white lab coat without a degree. But are all alternative medicines created equal? For some reason, 10 to 15 million people per year turned to acupuncture. So is there anything to it? Skeptic comedian David C. Smalley is here to discuss. Hey, Jordan ! Yeah, man. Acupuncture has been surprisingly controversial in some skeptic circles, mostly because of the cultural connections, so it can be a little touchy to criticize it without being accused of having ulterior motives. But I want everyone to know today. We're specifically addressing the facts surrounding acupuncture. Not talking about culture in any way. What do you mean here? Well, so in this case, it's the cultural connection to China. And to be fair, a lot of these alternative treatments claim to have some ancient Chinese connection. But usually that's not the case, right? It seems like they often mislead on that or they overstate things dramatically. That's very common with this alternative stuff. Right? You think it's ancient, but then it's really just some lady named Pat who started flavoring bubbles in her garage in 1986, and now it's bottled at Whole Foods. So, so where did acupuncture actually start? OK, so like most of this stuff, no one really knows. The claim is that it started in China approximately 3000 years ago, but some scholars have reviewed the documents where it was mentioned in these earlier digs, and they determined that while similar words to needle were used, they were more accurately describing bloodletting. You know, the ancient medical technique to basically let people bleed out to cure things like syphilis or women having an opinion? You know, for bloodletting, they used a large, sharp needle or big objects like sometimes even sharpened stones. So this idea that we're going to get into as far as like the flowing of energy or chee from organs to the skin very well could have just been blood. And that was the idea of energy. You know, that's kind of the idea behind breath or spritz or whatever. The the Latin for air was spiritus. So people would talk about your spirits would leave the body when you would sneeze, which is why it was an idea. They thought that was your essence, like your breath was your essence. And that's where we get the the word for spirit and ultimately soul. And so this could be very similar to that as far as blood being your energy the lifeblood of someone. It's kind of along that same vein. Uh, right. And take me a second when people talk about the meridian lines in acupuncture, which we're going to get into. They call them highways or energy, highways or energy flows. They're very likely just blood vessels. So, but again, people even disagree on that. I didn't realize that there was even debate on where it started. That makes sense, but also shakes this around even more. Yes. One legend claims that a Chinese soldier had his leg wounded in battle, and then when he was stabbed in the shoulder, the leg pain went away. OK, well, I can certainly see how he might not be thinking about his leg pain at that particular moment, like, Hey, let me stab you in the show. This is it's ridiculous when you recount it like that. Yeah, I mean, apparently, the legend goes that multiple soldiers claim that this also happened to them, and that was the beginning of acupuncture. But again, people disagree on what actually started this, because when they look back, historically different things point to different things and they'll say, Well, I don't think they meant acupuncture. I think they meant acupuncture. And other people argue that A did and B didn't. So those are kind of the arguments. Another story goes that ear acupuncture was started by a Frenchman. And the idea there was that he believed that the human ear strongly resembles a curled up fetus in its mother's womb. And therefore, if you have leg pain, he would poke a needle into your ear where the leg would be on the fetus in your ear. And people started believing that it worked. Apparently, he convinced himself that he could cure his own leg pain by stabbing himself in certain parts of his ear. And that's the origin story of that piece. And people have tried to refine your acupuncture over time, making it seem more scientific, having to do with neurology and sort of exploiting just how complicated the human body is so that many of us just don't even know enough about biology to ask the right questions in order to fact check this stuff. But we do know that during the Ming Dynasty, from thirteen sixty eight to 16 44, the great compendium of acupuncture and moxibustion was published, which forms the basis of modern acupuncture. And in that there are clear descriptions of the full set of three hundred sixty five points on your body that represent openings to the channels through which needles could be inserted to modify the flow of energy or Qi in Chinese. And interestingly, there are now said to be over 2000 acupuncture points in the human body, so the number has definitely grown over time and things have been modernized. Yeah. Did you know that if I punch you in the face and then kick you in the junk your face will bear, you won't even really notice that it hurts. It's an ancient Chinese art. What is moxibustion? That sounds like burning something? Yeah, that's when they burn. Mugwort leaves over certain points or acupuncture points for a magical essence flow or something. It's the same idea. They're just burning leaves and putting them on you as opposed to stabbing you with stuff. OK, so if they add moxibustion and increase the number of points, then the sessions are much longer. They can obviously charge more for some cupping in there and whatnot. So the story isn't really clear where modern acupuncture even started. Right. And even cupping is they kind of use acupuncture points for cupping to know where to put the cup. I've had it done. I was curious about it. It's just, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Did you notice a difference? Did you feel any better? No, no. I've tried acupuncture. I've tried cupping. I've tried all this. I've tried a lot of this alternative stuff, and I've never noticed any anything getting better in any way. And but I'm also open to the idea that I one don't believe in it. And that's why or two I had a bad practitioner sample size of one. You know, I'm not doing science myself, but I'll try stuff like that and I'm like, Oh yeah, OK. It turns out there's nothing here for me, and I think I may have mentioned this on the show before, but I've had a foot massage from a Chinese doctor from Tibet because my mother in law was like, Oh, this will help. It helps me. So I went there and she's like, Oh, you must have leg pain. And I'm like, No, she's like, Well, you have knee pain. I'm like, No, she's like, You have hip pain. I'm like, No. And she just was like, Oh, and then she didn't talk for the rest of the session. And I was like, What made you think that? And she's like, Oh, because these things, I'm pushing on in your feet, the reflexology, this, that and the other thing. And I just thought you kind of just guessed a bunch of stuff that every guy who's 42 years old, every single guy my age has had an issue with this at one point or another. But currently, no, I don't know if everything's fine. It's like holding your pinky toe going, Do you sometimes grunt? Yeah, yeah. Do you ever sleep and then wake up suddenly? Yeah. Wow, amazing. You know, it's just so I just was like, there was nothing to that. And then I looked up foot reflexology and it turned out to be, well, actually, it's a let's just say it's another episode of skeptical Sun waiting to happen. Absolutely. And I've only had somebody do cupping on me once. But it wasn't the cupping you had, it was my tailor, he said. He had to do that to make the suit fit. That's a different one. OK? All right. All right. Look, so this is going to make more sense in a moment. But I want to say this as far as where acupuncture actually started the National Institute of Health. And I want everyone to put a little note there for a moment when I say that because I'm coming back to it. The National Institute of Health does have an article that says acupuncture is at three thousand year old Chinese practice, so I'll state that for the record, but regardless of the actual origin. Even today, it has a pretty solid link to China and is pretty integrated into parts of the Chinese health care system. It's even taught at several Chinese medical universities with the most common education rule being five years studying for a bachelors and then three for a master's and Ph.D., or students can just immediately sign up for a master's program and go for seven years. Is that just in China, or do we offer something like that here in the United States, Canada? Yes. So we offered in the states and we have since 1981 there's been a master's program in acupuncture. Since then, in fact, the Maryland University of Integrative Health says that they're Master of Acupuncture Program was the first accredited master's degree program in acupuncture in the United States and continues to provide students with a comprehensive curriculum combining a rigorous classroom teaching and a rich clinical experience, and that the program is designed for individuals who wish to start their own private practice. So this sounds significantly more involved than some of the other practices that we've covered, like reiki or crystal healing, because it's not like a United States based accredited school teaching those things. What is the science actually say? OK, so this is where we start fights and I and I'm clearly not a doctor, but I do have a built in bulls**t detector and I can read. So I'm going to share both sides of this debate with you and see where it leads. And I just want to say I have some listeners of my show who love my skepticism, who love my debates, who love my arguments, but have written me and said, I'm actually an acupuncturist and I don't like the things you say about it, but I understand your skepticism. So I do want to share both sides of the debate and just kind of see where, where it leads. And I'm keeping those people in mind as I'm as I'm doing this today. So the National Library of Medicine is a branch of the National Institute of Health, which I've used as a credible source on a few of these episodes concerning medical issues. They have an article published in July 2014 called Acupuncture Past, Present and Future. And in it, they state, and I'm quoting during the past 40 years, acupuncture is a therapeutic technique of oriental medicine and has become more and more popular, evolving into one of the most utilized forms of complementary integrative medicine interventions in the United States. End quote. And then they almost immediately dive into cancer treatments, saying studies conducted on both humans and animals suggest that acupuncture may strengthen the immune system during chemotherapy and can reduce the side effects of nausea and vomiting. So they're making a pretty bold claim in what seems to be a well respected science journal. Well, they go on to say, and I'm quoting perhaps one of the most promising signs for the future of acupuncture in the United States is the non-discrimination in the health care language of the Affordable Care Act. The ACA and the language of the ACA prohibits discrimination against providers who deliver services that fall under the state defined scope of practice. This ensures, in most cases, that health plans can no longer make it a requirement that acupuncture services be provided by a medical doctor. A stipulation that means that covered acupuncture is were required to have their acupuncture license and be an actual M.D., but now they don't have to be certified or an actual M.D.. Yikes. OK, that can't be good. That opens it up to all kinds of grifting. Well, it goes on to say, I mean, it makes it cheaper and more accessible for people who want to access it, so they go on to say. Furthermore, in states such as California, complementary and alternative medical interventions such as acupuncture are now considered essential health benefits. All right, I'm waiting for the bombshell here. David, are you trying to keep us in suspense? No, I'm trying to not be murdered, so I'm giving a fair shake for the listener. It gets better. A 2010 study published by Brain Research and conducted by researchers at the University of York and Hull York Medical, indicated that acupuncture has a very significant impact on particular neural structures. Their analysis showed that acupuncture helps deactivate the areas within the brain that are associated with processing pain. And if that's actually the case, that could be huge. Although unknown risks. May God bless your soul, my vest, my spirits has left. Well, is that the case? I'll address that in a moment, but I'd like to offer a few more details from this article. So they make a very bold claim that a 2004 study conducted in Sydney, Australia that focused on the point P. six as a point for treating post-operative nausea showed that those who received acupuncture treatments were 29 percent. Less likely to get sick and 28 percent less likely to feel nauseous. And it says acupuncture for pain management has changed so many people's lives in the past 40 years. The scientific research increasingly supports the use of acupuncture in the treatment of many conditions. In addition to pain management, increasingly, acupuncture practitioners are championing efforts to inform and educate medical professionals and the public on the widespread application and evidence base of acupuncture. Yeah, the acupuncture specialists need to educate the medical professionals. OK, look, no. OK, keep going. Well, they can turn to the very trusted source of the Chinese government if they're curious. The National Health Commission of the People's Republic of China released an announcement in 2018 titled Acupuncture Proves its Point. Nice Chinese Communist Party Coming In Hot with the Puns. Their official government website says, and I'm quoting China's ancient medical remedy of acupuncture, is gaining global popularity after proving to be an effective treatment for illnesses and ailments that Western medicine still struggles to cure. OK, I think I see what's going on here. Yup. Power move. They also say not only is it commonly used to treat pain, nausea and headaches, it's also applied in beauty clinics for conditions such as skin rejuvenation, stress release and weight loss. In recent years, acupuncture has become the new healthy lifestyle buzz. After developing a fan base among royals and celebrities including Meghan Markle, movie star Matt Damon and singers Sheryl Crow and Madonna. So let me get this straight. The official Chinese Communist Party website is listing American celebrities as evidence that acupuncture actually works. This is PETA China, somehow. Yeah, I mean, they clearly know what Americans value for sure. Yeah, to share. And yes, I provided the link in the show notes so they can read this themselves. They also claim, and I'm quoting in 1993, an incident in the UK transformed the market and created a big demand for acupuncture among British patients. News spread that an acupuncturist in London's Chinatown had successfully cured several British patients of eczema. This condition causes the skin to become itchy, red and cracked. And even today, there is no cure for it in Western medicine, so it's still kind of this. They're kind of taking these pot shots at the idea of Western medicine saying, we've got it better than they do, right, of course. So now that you won't be murdered, I have questions. Is the National Institute of Health actually endorsing acupuncture? OK. No good. That may sound bizarre based on what you've just heard, but there is a disclaimer link at the top of that page. And if you click it, here's what it says. Disclaimer These resources are scientific literature databases offered to the public by the U.S. National Library of Medicine or in Eleme. In Lim is not a publisher, but rather collects indexes and archives scientific literature published by other organizations. The presence of any article, book or document in these databases does not imply an endorsement of or concurrence with the contents by any limb. The National Institutes of Health and IRH or the U.S. federal government. OK, so they should probably put that entire paragraph on the page at the top of these articles agreement. They should also list the author in their credentials at the top of the page because this article was not written by a doctor, but rather an MBA named Jason Jason Howe, who just happens to be the wait for it chairman of the acupuncture committee. Of course, he is so a guy who spent his life studying something slash business of marketing something and works with the Chinese Communist Party went ahead and drafted a document that shows that this thing that happens to be valued by the Chinese Communist Party that again he's dedicated his life to slash markets, makes a living selling just happens to be this amazing cure. All that has amazing results. You can't get anywhere else, especially in icky, yucky America or the West. Color me surprised David. You know, what's better than haphazardly jamming needles into your skin? One of the fine products and services that support this show? We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Peloton. Trying a new workout is like learning a new skill. It can be overwhelming, and the uncertainty can be a major barrier to actually getting started. Peloton's approach to convenience is very helpful for people who are looking to take on a new fitness skill or routine. Everything is designed to be a simple and streamlined as possible. From the easy to use touchscreen interface to the wide range of class options and personalized recommendations, you can access a variety of live and on demand classes, including cycling, running strength. Now there's an incredible rower, which I really enjoy, all from the comfort of your own home. 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New members only not available in remote locations see additional terms at one Peloton.com/ home dash trial. Thank you for supporting the show. I know these episodes ruffle feathers, but I'm glad you'll hear us out. All of the deals and ways to support the show. All right, Jordan Harbinger accom slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the search box on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to skeptical Sun. So what's the basis of their claim on reducing pain when having cancer? If that happens, also, then that's amazing. OK, so the great thing about the National Library of Medicine is they do require contributors to cite their sources. And that's what I spent. The vast majority of my time on this specific topic doing is chasing down the citations that were listed in the specific papers. So for the claims on helping with cancer treatments, I followed those sources in the links and it just says the results are mixed due to small sample sizes and design problems. And then another one says in one review, acupuncture reduced cancer pain in some patients with various cancers, although the studies were small. It also hints that it based its results on the questionnaire of the patients, so they weren't hooking people up to MRI's or measuring pain receptors or anything like that. Right. They basically just asked, How do you feel? But MRI should definitely be done in these studies. In fact, I found one line that claimed they have. It says a 2010 study published by Brain Research and conducted by researchers at the University of York and the whole York Medical, indicated that acupuncture has a very significant impact on particular neural structures. Their analysis showed that acupuncture helps deactivate the areas within the brain that are associated with processing pain. But again, when you follow the source they cited, it shows that only 17 people were in that study, and it shows that they were imaged in a 3T MRI scanner. fMRI data sets were classified on the basis of psychophysical participants reports of needling scores and brain areas showing changes in what they call bold signal. Increases and decreases were identified. Now that sounds important until you realize bold doesn't mean significant or important. It's an acronym for blood oxygen level dependent. OK, so I was like, Well, that sounds. Oh, it's an acronym. So yeah, blood and oxygen levels may fluctuate if you are stabbing me. Got it. Yeah, it may. Perhaps because a lot of that is the type of words they use as well. Differences were demonstrated in the pattern of activations and D activations between groupings of scans. But then it goes on to admit the predominantly acute pain grouping was associated with a mixture of activations and D activations. That's a very complicated way of saying. For most of the people, we couldn't tell the difference, right? I want to say one more time, I'm going to read this line. The predominantly acute pain grouping was associated with the mixture of activations and D. They're saying that the vast majority of results, we couldn't tell any difference. Right. So even if we don't have to trash the study in the sample size and the methodology and blah blah, let's agree. Now it's technically a study. They don't have conclusive results anyway. Well, in all you have to do is say the word may. Right? Sure. So notice the language. They'll say things like it may cause a drop in yada yada, or seems to have an effect. And that'll be the title, right? Acupuncture seems to have an effect in chemotherapy nausea, but there. Rarely definitive about any interpretation, so yes, it's a study, and yes, it may change something, but even that is a stretch. What about the cancer treatment symptoms it supposedly helps with? OK, so another 2020 clinical trial to treat cancer pain showed that the combination of different acupuncture types were effective in reducing pain and use of pain medication. But again, the study was limited by a small sample size and a lack of a placebo group and in this case, a short follow up. And the big one that focused on chemo says some randomized clinical trials of acupuncture have shown promise in treating chemotherapy induced peripheral neuropathy, which causes pain and muscle weakness from undergoing chemo. Notice how it says shown promise and then they immediately say, but more evidence is needed to explore how acupuncture may relieve symptoms. Yeah, of course it is. Of course, they need more evidence for any actual evidence at all. I might add there's another contributor who published an article for the National Cancer Institute that said, and I'm quoting six randomized clinical trials studied the use of acupuncture to prevent hot flashes in breast cancer survivors. These trials found that acupuncture was safe and decreased hot flashes, and that's the end of the quote. These trials found that acupuncture was safe and decreased hot flashes. That sounds amazing, and at the very least, they didn't even make me chase down another study to fact check because the very next sentence is it was not clear whether real acupuncture worked better than sham acupuncture sham acupuncture. How is that different from non sham acupuncture? I know I'm being a dick, but whatever sham is obviously fake, Jordan. Yeah, there you go. There you go. OK. OK. They describe it as poking the needles in for acupuncture, but for sham acupuncture, you're poking the needles in, but you're intentionally missing the meridians. So pokies without the magic as a control to see if magic pokies work better. OK, and clearly they work about the same. That's weird. Go, figure. So what's the point of even putting it in a scientific journal if it's a coin flip? Right? So that's like me saying, Jordan, I will be available to record a podcast with you tomorrow. And also, I may actually not be available tomorrow. Schrodinger's podcast both things. At the same time, it seems pointless. And did you find anything on their claim of acupuncture reducing the nausea or sickness? I mean, placebo can actually do that, at least. Yeah, it can. And I know that placebo can help with pain and nausea and even vomiting, because the action with the belief can do something for endorphins and kind of controlling it. Like, I think Seinfeld says it's weird how people may pee themselves in public, but the rectum seems to be socially aware. Like, for whatever reason, you just don't you? You never have to poop that bed until you're pulling your pants down from the toilet. It kind of just knows. So there is some sort of mental connection with some bodily functions thrusting Medavoy. You use it there. Yeah, that's keeping it classy. I mean, I'm quoting Seinfeld, so I believe he's a philosopher or medical doctor. But they did make the claim that acupuncture can reduce nausea from chemotherapy. And when I went to track down there cited source, their citation was actually quoting a website called Acupuncture Today. So I don't even bother chasing that rabbit. It's more of the same claims without scientific proof. It's funny that that's the source mat. It's like source. Trust me, Broadcom says that this definitely works. Do they ever describe in detail how it's supposed to work? So not in this actual article. Surprisingly, even though it's on this medical website, a medical journal and it seems official with citations, it's really just a puff piece for acupuncture is reputation. Mm hmm. But I did find some people who tried to medically more accurately or scientifically explain it. So Hopkins Medicine says traditional Chinese medicine practitioners believe the human body has more than 2000 acupuncture points connected by pathways or meridians. Now that's actually incorrect. Traditional Chinese medicine thought it was 365 modern medicine says or modern acupuncture, says 2000. But that's my one caveat to this quote. Then they say these pathways create an energy flow chief through the body that is responsible for overall health. Disruption of the energy flow can cause disease by applying acupuncture to certain points. It is thought to improve the flow of Qi, thereby improving health. And then they go on to warn that improper placement of the needle can cause pain during treatment and needles must be sterilized to prevent infection. This is more CIA for the love that so they're not endorsing it either. Basically, well, that's where it gets interesting because they don't, but they seem to believe that the National Institute of Health has endorsed it, which is the other side I just quoted. So they have a line in their article that says, and I'm quoting the National Institutes of Health. Studies have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment alone or in combination with conventional therapies to treat the following. And then they include nausea caused by surgical anesthesia in cancer chemotherapy as part of their list. So someone didn't read the disclaimers what it sounds like. They didn't click that link, and that is so scary. Yeah. So this sounds like another example of people taking unnecessary risks with their health for something that doesn't seem to have any provable or evidence based way to cure or even really treat anything other than maybe pain, maybe nausea. But also, we're not sure. OK, so this is where it takes kind of a weird turn. You're exactly right. The Guardian published an article back in 2010 that said over the previous 45 years, 86 people have been killed by improperly placed needles. I gotta hand it to the Chinese Communist Party and the acupuncture journals, though they have managed to figure out how to make something out of it, which certainly sounds like nothing. It's like an information warfare propaganda puff piece. It's almost like the Chinese Communist Party is like. But have you tried Herbalife? That shakes are delicious, and I've lost 10 pounds of I'm just like a government straight up shilling for fake sham medicine. Crazy. Did you ever have any idea that someone could die from acupuncture? No, but it makes sense. I mean, if you think about it, look at I'm not defending acupuncture or any sort of like fake medical stuff, but forty five years, eighty six people, if you do the math on that, that's pretty damn rare. People dying from this? Yeah, but I thought it was literally zero. I thought it was literally zero. I thought it was zero. And also, since it doesn't really do anything, that's 86 people too many, it's not like 86 six people have died getting a. Heart, stent, where they would have definitely died otherwise, and it saved hundreds of thousands of people, this has saved zero people and eighty six people have died so. Yeah, that's right. So what shocked me about this and I knew about acupuncture, I've addressed it before. I've talked to people before who did it. What I started to be shocked by is I just thought the worst part of acupuncture was getting bilked out of your money. No, no. I thought the worst was dealing with pain. It's just them poking you, you know, with a bunch of needles all over you. One of my comedian friends just posted on Instagram, he just like, put the camera up above his head and you could see a needle like in his hair, like still sticking out of his scalp. And I was like, Dude, there's not a whole lot of space in between your skin and your skull. Like, What are they stabbing back there? Any? Ouch. They left it in. Sure. Yeah, you leave it in there for like 20, 30 minutes, I think sometimes. No, no, no. When he left, he was home. What? That seems completely unsafe because you could not see a car. You could. To me, that's what I'm saying. He's home and he's going up a couple hours ago. What the hell's going on? Oh, did they forget to take it out or do they got to take it out? And they took a bunch out? He gets home and has one stuck in his hair. I thought, maybe they're like, Hey, take this out in an hour. No, they just forgot it was in there, Mike. They probably put 50 in there or 100 in him. When they're doing surgery on you and they're using those sponges and tools, they have the outline of the thing on the tray so that they don't leave something on or in you. And it sounds like, like, maybe count the needles. Just look, that's one strategy. I'm no actually one Mississippi two Mississippi looks like we put 30 on the guy. Maybe we should have 30 when we're done on the table, just sayin. So that same document also says this a review of patients who died soon after acupuncture found a history of punctured hearts and lung. What damaged arteries and livers, nerve problems, shock infection and hemorrhage, largely caused by practitioners placing their needles incorrectly or failing to sterilize their equipment. I'm going to pause you right there. Every place that you put a needle inside me for something that is not medicine is incorrect. So one hundred percent of acupuncture needles are placed incorrectly, but failing to sterilize their equipment. That's what I thought people would have died from punctured livers, arteries and hearts and lungs. We're going to talk about that in a second. I'm gonna let you finish. But damn, that's horrible. Yeah, you're right. It's like someone said in court one time was like, Oh, this was a robbery gone wrong? Yeah. Has there ever been a robbery? Go right? Like, what are you talking about? We got all the money and no one got hurt. I think that's what they meant. Oh, God, yeah. But there are places that you can stab yourself with these needles and not die from a puncture wound. And this sounds like one of the most painful, torturous ways to die. It's it's pretty terrifying. So many of the 86 patients that were between 26 and 82 they died after being treated by acupuncture is in China or Japan. But a handful of fatalities were also recorded in the United States, in Germany and Australia. The most common cause of death was a condition called pneumothorax, where air finds its way in between the membranes that separates the lungs from the chest wall and causes the lungs to collapse. Oh gosh. So a medical professor who studied the deaths said these reports were very likely just the tip of a larger iceberg. That is, there are probably so many more people who went home later and died from something. It was probably listed as natural causes. There was no reason to do an autopsy, and no one even knew that they had gone, you know, through acupuncture, you know, 48 hours before. That is horrifying. The needles I didn't know first of, I didn't know the needles were that long. I thought we were talking about those little ones that end up in your hand. They can puncture organs here. I'm thinking of these little tiny things that go in a couple of skin layers deep, which is bad enough if we're talking about infection or whatever. I mean, that's just horrible. Sounds like a knitting needle going through you at that point. Yeah, this is going to make you a little antsy, so it's pretty terrifying. So Science Alert posted a notice in 2019, saying an acupuncturist in New Zealand has accidentally pierced a young woman's lung after inserting needles in her shoulder region to deep weight in your show. That's really far. Yeah, so I was thinking something in the chest that went through the ribs or right on the side. It was up in the shoulder. Oh man, it was a 33 year old patient. She was seeking treatment for an arm and wrist injury, which was causing pain on the top of her shoulders and a shortness of breath. So to treat her, the acupuncturist decided to place two needles in a nearby acupressure point known as Gallbladder 21. And as the needles were going in, the young woman expressed pain. And then later, she told the Health and Disability Commissioner that the insertions felt extremely deep. Both needles were left in her for half an hour before they were then rotated and then move. Oh my gosh. And it was at that point that the patient felt a sudden onset of chest pain and shortness of breath, and she told her acupuncturist This is part creeps me out. She told her acupuncturist she felt stuffy, and then she said, I'm having a strange and painful air sensation in her chest around both lungs. Oh my God. The patient, the acupuncturist sent the patient home, of course. Yeah, and she told her to rest up and take it. I have some water. It was later that night the woman's husband ended up rushing her to the emergency room, where they discovered both lungs were collapsed due to what they call top side puncture. Oh, and apparently the lungs are one of the most common areas to be punctured because they're often reached from the back as well. Oh my God, that makes me so queasy. I know it's so weird that a needle would go that far. Can you even imagine you basically just paid someone to stab you and almost actually kill you because of some s**t you read in Reader's Digest or an Instagram post? Like, what a foolish gamble that is. Yeah. You know what, I enjoy even more than puncturing my epidermis. The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Peloton. We are getting so much rain here in California and finally right, we need the water. We're probably going to waste a bunch of it, just letting it drift into the ocean. But that's not what this is about. It's like a disaster. Outside trees collapsing, the streets are flooded. All of a sudden. People don't know how to drive. I don't know why that is in California. In Michigan, we can go to work in a foot of snow here. It's like there's an inch of rain and people run straight into walls and each other. I like to stay active, but I don't really want to leave the house when this happens. That's one of several reasons why I love Peloton. The convenience factor just can't be beat. I don't have to go anywhere to stay active and healthy. Peloton makes top notch machines. The classes are taught by world class instructors. They're known for their amazing bikes. Everyone's probably heard of that. We have one of those. It gets plenty of mileage here. The rowing machine is where it's at, though for me, rowing is it. Maybe it's the novelty factor of having a new thing, but I love it. Rowing is great for a full body workout. It's great for improving your cardiovascular endurance. I've improved a ton since starting this. I love the flexibility. If a call cancels, which happens all the time, I can hop on the row and get a quick workout in. I can get my heart pumping in the morning before the kids wake up. Working out at home, it's just been amazing. Especially first of all, there's nobody judging me. The kids can bother me and I can go right back to it. There's no way for a machine. There's no equipment slathered in other people's friggin sweat, other people's drool and grossness. And what's unique about the row is it gives you real time form feedback. The seat and handle contains sensors, and during setup you go through this five minute calibration process that then enables form assist, which is really cool. It's a little collapsible window in the left hand side of the screen. You can monitor your technique because for me, especially a lot of this athletic stuff is not super intuitive. Rowing form certainly was not intuitive in doing it correctly, especially when you get tired is a lot harder than it sounds, and pharmacist shows you a figure of yourself as you roll when you screw up a portion of your body turns red. That is a good way to avoid getting injured, first of all. Tweaking something, overworking something. Not being able to work out, which is going to stop a lot of people who are diving in for the first time. Getting back into it after a long time, the last thing you want is some sort of repetitive strain issue at the end of the workout. You get a readout of how well you did and a breakdown of your most common mistakes. So if you were kind of like me, you want to be competitive even with yourself. You can improve over time. Like I said, I've improved a lot of these metrics over time in a way that's kind of feels good. I won't lie. I also love the scenic rides. That's kind of my new jam. You can transport yourself into the Thames River in London and when you're basically rowing through London and, you know, smell free without getting that water in your mouth, you can see famous landmarks such as the Tower Bridge, the Houses of Parliament, the London Eye. They also have Sydney Harbour. You can look at the Opera House, the Harbour House Bridge. I just think it's really neat to be able to row through Miami or different cities in the world. Just think it's a really, really great idea. There's culture, there's beaches. It's very relaxing for somebody who's going to be sweating their brains out on one of these things. I really, really enjoy that. And frankly, I didn't think I would, but I love it. So if that doesn't make you want to work out, probably nothing will try Peloton row risk free with a 30 day home trial. New members only not available in remote locations like the ones you can cynically rode through the scenic rides at Peloton. See additional terms at one Peloton RT.com Slash Home Dash trial. Once again, thank you for listening and supporting the show. All the deals and discount codes are at Jordan Harbinger.com/ deals or use our air search box on the website right there at Jordan Harbinger dot com. Please consider supporting those who support the show now for the rest of skeptical sun. What are actual doctors saying about acupuncture? Well, and you talk about foolish gamble, that's if you actually have a medical issue. Some people go for cosmetic reasons. They think it'll make their skin prettier or to get rid of eczema or something like that. And they end up going and, you know, dying, you're going to look great when you're in your skin. It's going to be beautiful. It's going to be very smooth. We're going to staple your neck down. You'll agree you 10 years younger. We're just going to take two acupuncture needles and just just nip your flat skin back together. It's going to be great. Oh my god. So you asked what the doctors are saying when you say Dr. Brown. So chiropractors call themselves doctors who call themselves doctors. There are some attorneys who even do it because of the doctor involved in the education. So, oh my gosh. I mean, a lot of people really don't want to be attacked or get involved with this debate. So naturally, it just it doesn't come up in your standard Google search for like you're not going to have a bunch of neurologists speaking out against, you know, the horrors of acupuncture, mostly because it isn't seen as dangerous for the most part, mainly statistically, like you said, it's pretty good numbers. It's not like it's an epidemic that we have to address. And there's just acupuncture. You're just murdering people. Although we wouldn't really know if someone was dying a couple of days later, it's a very slow and agonizing way to die. So I bet you there are tons of people who have died from this and then just nobody just knows that they that they had a treatment. Sure. Yeah. Like, I know that's where your liver just exploded and she had this toxic septic shock in her body. That's weird, though she must have got hit by something and not noticed actually a needle punctured it and then got removed. Il yep, or something genetic. Or, you know, that was just unknown natural causes or something like that. And that's the reason I did the whole disclaimer at the beginning, because I've just commented on videos before of people doing acupuncture. I've been like, the science doesn't really support any positive results from acupuncture other than a placebo. And I was told in the comments to keep my whiteness out of her culture is so if it can become like about race or culture or considered hate speech to say a scientific fact, you have to weigh the odds and just pick your battles. And so I don't see how a lot of doctors would benefit from putting statements out on the internet, going after something that they see as relatively harmless other than a waste of money. But privately, nearly all of them will tell you it's nonsense. I had a few conversations with doctors privately when I was writing this and putting the notes together, and of course, they asked me not to mention their names, but they were like, There's absolutely no real science to it. There's no support for the practice. But if it makes someone feel better, then maybe it's not all that bad as long as they're not getting their lungs deflated. That's the common theme of a lot of these things, right, that we've debunked on skeptical sun and even stuff we haven't touched yet. If the monster spray makes the kid sleep, then what's the harm and why is it your business, et cetera? Right. And the skeptic is in the corner going, well, you taught the kid about the monster in the first place. You're the problem. Yeah, not to mention the conflict of interest when the monster spray company is also pushing ads about monsters and kids videos on YouTube. Sure. But I did find a few people who would publicly address it. You're aware of Dr. Steven Novella. Of course, it makes sense he would talk about this. Yeah, yeah. So he's a Yale University neurologist. He's the author of the Skeptics Guide to the Universe. And of course, he is a podcast by the same name in a video for Tech Insider. He says acupuncture is essentially an elaborate placebo. You get no effect out of the actual acupuncture itself. The clinical research clearly shows after literally thousands of studies that it doesn't matter where you stick the needles. It also doesn't matter if you stick the needles. You can randomly poke somebody with toothpicks. And some studies literally do that, and it's just as effective in doing all the things in acupuncture is is supposed to do. It's not science based medicine, so this is precisely what I figured. You're better off just buying some of the crystals people charge on the back porch during a full moon or whatever, and laying those under your pillow because at least the odds of you puncturing your longer, your heart with a frickin amethyst are pretty close to zero, right? Yeah, you're spot on. So if you embrace both of those, I encourage you go the crystal route. I also came across skeptic doc. Her name is Dr. Harriet Hall, and she's a retired family physician and former Air Force flight surgeon who specifically writes about alternative medicine in what she calls quackery. And she gave a 40 minute talk on acupuncture for QED that's available on YouTube. And yes, I've also provided the link for that. She starts the talk by saying, When we stick pins in doors, it's called voodoo. When we do it to babies, it's called child abuse. When we do it to prisoners, it's torture. But when we do it to patients, it's alternative medicine. I like that. And she makes a very strong point that we don't ever really need to debate these issues of whether or not alternative medicine works. Because she says, if it's proven to work, we don't call it alternative. Yes, we have a name for alternative medicine that actually. He works it's called medicine. All right. So she goes on to talk about how acupuncture is not a method, it's multiple methods and it changes over time. So it was originally 365 points because it was symbolic of days in the year. And now it's over 2000, and Korean acupuncture only has 300 points and they're all in the hand. There's ear acupuncture that started with 30 points, and now they have like 130 or 140 or something. There's electro acupuncture, there's cupping over acupuncture points or at your your tailor. And she actually jokes that when you add them all up, there's only one spot. There's never an acupuncture point in all of the traditions, and that's the convenience. Also, while I approve, I think there's a lot of leather clad dudes in San Francisco that are probably really disappointed to hear that that's not going to stop them. That's true. It's acupuncture, guys. Come on. Try that. You might like it. It's just now you just wait for the flow of my energy. OK, here comes the tea, OK and explicit tag. I too. There we go. So she also gets into the meridians, which are supposed to be the pathways in which the energy flows or the chee flows to the body. And they've uncovered ancient documentation that says there are nine meridians. Others say there are 11 that are also ancient documents. And some say there are 12. And some people believe there are 14 or even 20. And some say they're not necessary at all. No medical doctor, no biologist or anatomists have ever been able to locate meridians in the body. So from a physiological or biological position, the claims of acupuncture fail. Yeah, come on, guys, at least get your imaginary meridians and pressure point standardized. But this sort of wild digression between practitioners let people go well. Science has different stuff. Yeah, but not currently, really. You see science improve over time. So if it's like, Hey, originally we thought there were nine, then we've discovered 11, then we discover 12, that we discovered 14 and then we discover 20. Everybody would go. There are 20. Nobody would go, actually. We're going to go. We're going to stick with the original nine. That's dogmatic. Yeah, no one's going. I don't think there's 206 bones in the human body. I'm going with 163 because those are the ones we identified in the year 900, right? So right. This sort of wild digression between practitioners is standard pseudoscience quackery. And this is precisely why this stuff is not science. It's not scientifically valid. There's no actual standard. Right. And she also discusses the psychological implications as far as the suggestive nature of the acupuncturist, like when you look at positive results or someone says, Oh, it worked for me. Well, a lot of times the patient wants to please the authority figure, and there's even shame and resentment from friends or family members if they were to reject or deny the acupuncture results or even refuse to go to the treatment in the first place. One of the most amazing things she talks about is studies they've done with acupuncture on rubber arms, and I'm sure you've seen this experiment where they set up some illusionist or TV. Magicians will use this to where they set up a rubber arm, and then they put the participants arm behind like a wall where they can't see it, and they put the rubber arm where their hand would be if both hands were laid on the table. Have you seen this? Yeah, yeah. They like tickle it and they hit it with a hammer or something, and then they just slam it with the hammer and the guys like it freaks people out. You know, they slam the rubber on with the hammer. To be clear, they're not actually sending the guys off, but the person would react as if it's their arm. That's what you mean, right? Yeah. She talks about them doing this with acupuncture while imaging the brain and when needles were inserted into the rubber arm, the brain responded as though it was happening to the person's actual arm, which means some of these reported feelings are happening due to visualization and suggestions from the acupuncturist or visualizing the needle going into the skin, which means actually inserting it is meaning right. You don't have to hit the meridian if you get the same effect from inserting it into a rubber fake arm that you can get at a prop store. Exactly. Which makes it entirely meaningless. Right? I'm glad you didn't say pointless, David. I'm trying to be a better man. Well, let's just hope that attitude sticks up. OK, Jordan, go on. We're going to start writing now. We know it is corny as hell, but I just didn't have anything to snap out of this before we open it up. And it's a steal, but it's fun. OK, so look, the bottom line here is that there have been countless studies on acupuncture, even thousands. There is no real scientific proof that acupuncture works for anything other than slightly reducing your nausea or vomiting, and even that is probably strongly influenced by context, willpower and belief. Placebo? Yeah, but with infections in collapsed lungs and punctured aorta is bu. I want to leave you with one quick thing that I found. In the comments of that QED video, and if you follow the link to the show notes and you go watch it, you should see this. I think it was one of the most popular comments. Someone left a commenter that said I was an acupuncturist and I was continuing my education doing a B.A. in psychology and in my research course. On the first day, we talked about the qualities of pseudoscience. And I had an epiphany and walked out that day quite troubled because there were a number of qualities that I was personally guilty of. For example, when asked how acupuncture works, I would begin with we don't know yet. Then I would follow with an explanation of one of a number of theories, depending on which one would make the most sense to that particular client based on their background, their education level, worldview, etc. So that plus learning how to better critique publications in my psychology degree and seeing inconsistent results in my own practice and seeing hypocrisy in the field led me to leave that career behind, huh? So at least one acupuncturist finally got the point. OK, I'm done. Yeah, that's all I can handle. All right. Thanks, David. Thank you, man. Here's a preview of my conversation with Bill Nye about why anti-vaccination activists aren't only endangering themselves and their crusade against the establishment. Why climate change is real and a real threat. And what Bill thinks is even more important for the future of humanity than Elon Musk's drive to colonize Mars. Here's a quick listen. It is fascinating the energy people have, the haters have to hate. But meanwhile, the climate is changing. Even if you hate me screaming my anger towards the things that you say is not positively affecting the climate. No. Oh, that's weird. I got to change strategies, man. The reason I want you to get vaccinated is really not that I care about you. It's me, me, me, me. Because when you are unvaccinated, you are an incubator for mutating viruses, mutating bacteria. We can't fight with conventional antibiotics. Now you're denying the discoveries made by diligent scientists over the last three centuries. You're objectively wrong about it. Hey, if you're a flat earther, if you're out there, go to the edge and take a picture and send it to us. Yeah, go out there to the edge will be able to see the whose day you think you'll find that you're living on a big ball and you can travel any direction and never leave. Will do. That's impossible. How could it be something that you could go anywhere and never get off because it's a bomb? My claim is, if you're always curious, the world is always exciting and every day you will learn something. And big idea behind that is everybody knows something. You don't want radical curiosity. They just want to get people excited about this process. I mean, we are living at a time. It is very reasonable that we will discover life on another world. Why is there something alive on Mars? Is it like us, or is it a whole nother thing to hear more about why Bill Nye devotes his life to education but has no children of his own? How to deal with cognitive dissonance? The two things that always happen when we go exploring. Check out Episode 366 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Once again, topic suggestions always welcome Jordan at Jordan Harbinger dot com, I know these episodes ruffle feathers. We're going to be doing a little bit more, I think, measured kind of critique on some of this stuff in the future, but we're still getting our toes wet. This is an earlier episode than when we released it. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger dot com transcripts in the show notes. I'm Jordan Harbinger on Twitter or Instagram, or end Instagram, where you can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find David Smalley at David C. Smalley on all social media platforms at David S. Smalley AECOM or better yet, on his podcast, The David C. Smiley Show links to all that will be in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jenn Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Emilio Campo and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who needs to hear it. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. Special thanks to Peloton for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
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