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June 17, 1994, 95,000,000 people, the size of a Super Bowl audience stopped what they were doing because they were enraptured in what was taking place on their television. OJ Simpson, 5 days after a double murder, fleeing authorities on the slow speed white bronco chase. Welcome to a very special episode of 1 Degree of scandalous. I'm your host, Tom Zenner. This is the OJ Simpson saga, a 3 part episode presented by our good friends at American Hartford Gold, and what a show we have for you today. Let's bring in the man, the one and only, Kato Kaelin. I'm in Phoenix, Kato. You're in LA. It's June 17th when we're taping this. And my man, Cato, what were you doing the morning of it was already a crazy week for you. And did you think you could possibly get crazier that morning? Well, you know what? In imprinted in my mind, 30 years ago, imprinted in my mind was watching TV and the chief of police, I believe his name is Gascon, he just what he said though, OJ Simpson is a fugitive of law, and I just that just rings out of my head that that was, the this that statement is so iconic. And I was watching, TV with my friends. I was watching the NBA playoffs. And, you know, it's a big thing, Tom, like you said, 95,000,000 people. You know, it's big when the when the little screen is the chase Yeah. And, next thing you know, the big screen is the the chase no longer the little screen, and the NBA game is is pretty much forgotten about. Sidebar. Luckily, it wasn't that great of a series anyway. Michael Jordan wasn't playing, so not that many people cared about it anyway. But, you know, what we're gonna get through today is the timeline of that day because I think it's gonna surprise a lot of people just when the chase started and what happened after that and I think that was a big part of what allowed such a huge audience to follow this worldwide. And if you're in your forties, maybe late thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, you knew exactly where you were during that day. And, Kato, you said you were watching the NBA game, and then it was just all this for the rest of the night. And what was an already unbelievable bizarre circumstance of the whole week elevated times a 1000 from that moment on. Yeah. I I, Tom, I think you you, said this before. You kinda reiterated that I think it is a where were you moment, and we had JFK assassination. You had a, space shuttle, blowing up. Where were you? It became probably one of the most iconic again moments of where were you during Yeah. The Bronco chase. Yep. Alright, Kato. So 2 people that are synonymous with that day are joining us and it's gonna make for a very, very special episode. Tom Laing, iconic lead detective for LAPD who was involved in the murders from the first minute they happened on Bundy, first one on the crime scene, and, of course, involved in the car chase. He's joining us along with Jim Burey of Inside Edition who was, had a different job back then, but he was part of what we all believe started reality TV. Gentlemen, so great to see you. Tom, you look great. Thank you. I'm gonna get to you in one second. But, Jim, it was already a crazy week for you too. Little did you know how much your life was gonna change, but do you remember? Because I there was already a frenzy in your newsroom and everything that you had to deal with trying to get a new tidbit of information every single day because there was a lot of pressure on you to keep this story going. How did June 17th start for you? Well, at that time, I was actually hosting the network's entertainment show, Showbiz Today. I was not a main news anchor at that time, but I was and still am a only anchor and lawyer in LA, which is how I ended up anchoring all of the trial coverage. But I do recall when OJ Simpson was called a fugitive from justice, we were obviously all wondering where is he, and then, of course, the helicopter shot comes in and then and the nation's riveted by that. But I remember Larry King was on the air, and Larry was nothing if not a good showman. He was never getting out of that seat. He stayed there for the entire duration of the chase. Even after his show ended, he wasn't giving it up. And I it was it was just it was jaw dropping because it was so surreal in so many ways. It wasn't a high speed chase. It was a slow speed chase. We could hear parts of the conversation. We could we could we were getting play by play from people at various checkpoints, and we really wondered how was this going to end because many people thought that OJ Simpson might try to take his own life inside that car. Yeah. Jim, you had already worked in the market, you know, in LA and covered big stories for 6, 7, 8 years already, so you'd seen a lot. You'd cover serial killer killings, other scandals. Did you have any idea that day that your life was gonna change to the level that it did? Because you lost so many hours on CNN. You became a household name. Everybody knew who you were. It kinda changed the trajectory of your career. It it changed my life in many ways as that case changed many people's lives. I I anchored all of the network's coverage. I think we logged over a 1000 hours on TV, and it was every day during that trial from from, say, 9 to 4. And CNN and Court TV were the only networks going live gavel to gavel. And and it was I viewed it and still do as a tremendous responsibility. I took the job very seriously. I would never tell anyone, even my own family during that trial, how I felt, it was going as as far as OJ Simpson's guilt or innocence. Years later, obviously, all of that changes, but it it it changed my life completely. Yeah. You know, I was working in the media at the same time, and I think what people don't understand is this just took over your life, especially when you're at the epicenter like Jim was. And every single day, man, you're hearing from, you know, from the c suite down at CNN, find the next big story, find the next big lead. Hustle, hustle, hustle. Kato, you you got a new friend, Jim Morey, from that saga. I mean, that's one of the good things that came out of it. Do you remember your first interaction with Jim and then, you know, the relationship that you guys developed because you were so pivotal for for the next few years? You know, I gotta say, something about Jim. Jim is one of those people that you don't even need to see his face. You hear his voice. Jim is has the most distinctive voice, and it's it's a voice that, it's calming. No matter what what's happening, it could be tragedy, anything. But when you hear Jim's voice, I for me, you you just immediately, tune in to him. And, when I and I I knew of Jim Morey, and Jim had called when he had showbiz today, and, I'm sure Jim remembers this. They wanna do a segment called bowling. I think it was called bowling with Kato. And I said to myself, because it was such a tragic event, I was looking for anything with light in it and something that people could relate to to see a a personality, not the soap opera character, Kato, but a real person. And Jimmer's responsible, I think, for everybody tuning in. It was on CNN at that time, and I got such a positive response, and it's all because of Jim Yeah. Taking me bowling. Yeah. And and, you know, the interesting thing was that day was really two things happening. It was a huge news story because OJ was a fugitive of the law. As Kato mentioned, when David Garcon said that, we are actively looking for OJ Simpson. He is a fugitive. If you're helping him, you're a felon. We're gonna get you too. So you got the news story, but then it became just as much of an entertainment story, if not bigger. And and we're gonna get to the news part of it and the drama involve that with Tom Lang in just a second. But, Jim, one more question. Were you because CNN back then was a serious news outfit. Right? You covered the news as well. It wasn't just opinion. It wasn't just political. Were you trying to balance that too? Put on your hard news hat as well as okay. This is a showbiz story. There's never been anything like this. There's an entertainment angle to this. There was a huge debate within the network at the time whether we wanted to cover the trial live, because many people, especially those in the Washington bureau, thought it was tawdry, thought it was tabloid. And this, you have to remember, this is years before there were stains on a blue dress that almost brought down the Clinton presidency. This is before tabloidization of news. This and you you brought this up earlier. I really view this event as the beginning of reality TV. It was before The Bachelor. It was before The Apprentice. It was it was at a time when people were tuning in to the trial for the 9 months of the trial and were not watching soap operas. They were running soap operas overnight because nobody was watching soaps, and they never recovered the audience because you had a real life soap opera. And I think that it changed people's appetite for news and what news was. But at the very core, it was a very serious story. The 2 young, beautiful people were viciously slain, and someone we know was responsible. The question was it OJ Simpson. So there was this who done it element. It was like a true crime podcast years before we knew what podcasts were. I am excited to introduce the sponsors of the OJ Simpson saga that you're watching, my trusted friends at American Hartford Gold. While we like the shocking world of celebrity scandal, don't let financial scandals threaten your retirement funds. We're all feeling the bite of soaring inflation. But our financial future is endangered by a host of other problems, like failing banks, astronomical national debt, and a looming recession. It almost feels criminal, but fortunately, there is a way to protect your hard earned retirement savings, physical gold and silver. And when it comes to diversifying your savings and tangible assets, I trust American Hartford Gold, and you should too. 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So it's almost impossible to for anyone to put themselves in your shoes and figure out the emotions that you were dealing with that entire week because you had just lost your friend. She had just been buried. You had now been thrust into this this frenzy, this national media exposure that you were trying to adjust yourself to as a guy from Milwaukee, just, you know, a budding entertainment career that you were launching yourself. How was your mind processing all this? Because you knew OJ. He's running from the law. You're Well, beef before all that, nobody knew at June 17th. Well, beef before all that, nobody knew at June 17th. They didn't know Kato. But my feelings were, why is he running from the law? Why has he not turned himself in? And, his thoughts are going through my head because earlier he had said that he that a part of the trial that became in the transcripts was he said that I was with him eating in the kitchen when we, did the, McDonald's trip, which I didn't even know we're going to McDonald's. So certain things start adding up. I said, why would this gentleman, OJ Simpson, try to hide from the law? And then when they, Robert Kardashian read a suicide letter and they had the happy face on it, I mean, Tom Langle talk about that, I just said, this is seems so so sociopathic kind of personality, of of of OJ Simpson. So, you know, Jim had mentioned about this is before The Bachelor, The Apprentice and all that. When the when the Bronco chase happened, Tom, it wet the appetite that people knew immediately. Oh my god. I can't wait for the trial. If this is the appetizer, this is gonna be the the most gigantic thing ever. And I'm sure that swayed CNN's mind and, and whoever else, they knew that this was gonna be the most watched TV show in the history. Yeah. And then as we know, 30 years later, still to this day Yeah. It's the biggest trial, and it's also the template of any trial that goes on in America today. Yeah. Yeah. So if you don't wanna blame anybody, if you don't like the Kardashians show, blame Jim Morey. He was part of starting reality TV. We'll get back to that more because you know what, it did become such a a frenzy, such a it it was a release for everybody. It was like a daily soap opera. It was an entertainment show. It was a sitcom. It was everything. But let's never lose sight of the fact that this is all because 2 people were viciously murdered. And we tried to get Kim Goldman on the show, and she would've done it, but she was busy. And we were gonna have somebody with the Brown family as well, but they have a huge documentary that's out right now, and they're promoting that. So we just always wanna give our respects to them, and we know what the core situation here is, what we're dealing with. Now speaking of documentaries, you know the next gentleman I'm gonna be bringing in, Tom Lang. He is an icon. He is a legend. Marine veteran joined the LAPD, ironically, from Milwaukee just like Cato, decorated career in LA. And, Tom, great to see you again. And, Tom, this was already a long week for you because it started in the early morning hours when you got the call about the murders. We'll talk about that, you know, later. But how about that day, June 17th, 30 days ago today when we're taping this, the epicenter was Parker Center because by this point, OJ, I I would imagine in the minds of you, Philip Van Adder, everybody else covering this case, that's your guy. It's time for him to turn himself in. You're waiting for him. So tell us about your day, Tom. When it started, did you go straight to Parker Center waiting for OJ? Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tom. Before I get started, I wanna say really quickly that it, it's a genuine pleasure to sit down with someone like a Jim Morey, who is one of the most legitimate correspondents of the last 30 years. So it's a real pleasure to be here just for that alone as far as I'm concerned. Agree. Thank you. Anyway, I don't know why long this that particular morning, I had been talking to Bob Shapiro, and the plan was to have OJ turn himself in at the Parker Center jail. So we were waiting down at the jail. I figured they'd be coming in at any time. And of course they never showed, they were like, it had to be 7 or 8 helicopters circling Parker Center. People were gathering around and, San Pedro Street right outside the jail, wondering when he was gonna show up. I talked to called Shapiro again. He was at Bob Kardashian's home in Encino. And he had told me that, you know, he was here just a little bit ago. He was talking to AC, and all of a sudden, they had just gone. I said, where did he go? He says, I, you know, I have no idea. I can't I can't tell him what to do. Something like this. He was at a loss for words. So I that told me that he really didn't know that, Simpson had planned to take off. Apparently, he just did this out of his own along with AC. AC Collings. So I don't think, Shapiro really knew what was going on at that particular point in time. And I really don't believe that he did know where he was going. Regardless, I called West LA division and I had him set up a couple of black and white cars up to Kardashians home to search though, to see if they could talk to anybody, to get any information at all, where Simpson might have gone to. And, of course, that went nowhere. So I was pretty pretty much set in in in the belief that, when Simpson took off, he didn't tell anybody. He did leave a note, however, that we know. So this was kind of planned. Whether or not he was gonna commit suicide. And then you could get get an argument on that, So anybody, yes, no. Who knows what he was gonna do? I don't think he really knew what he was gonna do one way or the other at the time. Yeah. And Tom Tom was in the middle of everything. Even the Monday when OJ came back from Chicago in the backyard, it was Brentwood home on Rockingham when they put the the handcuffs on to OJ for the first time. Was there a hunch, Tom? Because you can read people, you know. Did you think there was a chance that he might not show up? Or when LAPD tells you to be and report, generally, your lawyer takes you down there and you show up. How odd was it the fact that that he wasn't showing up at 10:05, 1010:015? When did you start getting concerned? Well, I was concerned all along. To begin with, the department has its policies. They don't always align with the investigation. Phil and I, Phil Van Hatter, my old partner, had a thing. We would much rather go out and pick someone up, meet them somewhere, just arrest them, with them, knowing that we were actually looking for them. Go out in the field and arrest them and bring them in and book them ourselves. It was obvious that if you're gonna have your attorney turn in your your yourself in, then you're gonna have a big a big press circus, and that's exactly what this turned out to be. We didn't mean to do that. This was a brass's decision. It's it wasn't the best decision, obviously, at all because of what happened. So we did not wanna do this, but again, we have a boss like everybody else. We have to do as we were told. And so we were waiting, and when they when this happened, I wasn't all that surprised. Phil wasn't all that surprised. And I just, in back of my mind, I said, well, here we go again. It's imagery before reality. And so that's where we were and sooner or later, I knew something would break. What a lot of people don't know that we found out a little bit later was that someone had reserved a yacht down in the Bahamas under Simpson's name, right around this time. Now we found out later if he was taken off somewhere, it may be down in that area. It was gonna he had a yacht waiting or something to this. He may have had a yacht that we had never confirmed that. We were unable to confirm it, but we heard that from more than one source. Yeah. So there was a possibility that perhaps in the back of his mind, he was leaving the door open, so to speak. And I don't think like I said, that goes very long with my thoughts that when he took off, I don't think he he knew where he was going or what he wanted to do. Of course, they ended up down at the Nicole's grave in Orange County, and the rest is Sure. The history. Boy, the yacht the yacht theory makes total sense. Doesn't that sound like something that he'd be doing? That makes sense to me. Cato, it's interesting because on that Friday, was anybody reaching out to you saying, hey. Do you know how to get a get a hold of OJ when when he wasn't showing up? Were people calling you? Do you have his number? Do you remember anything like that? I no. But people were, the my friends that I was with are going, this this is the most amazing story. What what is going on? What I did notice though, towards the end of the chase, I knew the the players when he pulled up into the Rockingham address. I said, well, that's his son, Jason. People they they didn't know it was him at the time Yeah. With the news cameras, but I said his son's running out there, and then they then they established that it was Jason Simpson. Right. And, and and Tom Lang and Tom Zener, I don't know if you know this, but something that always bothered me, we'll go right back into it, is that Tom Lang, you on did you know that AC Cowling and OJ had the identical Broncos, everything identical, if that was ever investigated in both the Broncos, and because it's part of the chase of because they are the identical year, I'm sure they're not the VIN number, but you you were aware of that. Correct? Yeah. We were aware of that all along. She would, do everything that, OJ did. I mean, he would copycat just about everything he did. To this day, people still get those 2 white Broncos mixed up, and you have to be a little careful of that because in in the back of some people's minds, it doesn't make sense. But, yeah, that's true. The the, they're 2 entirely different vehicles. Yeah. Interesting. Can I chime in really quickly? Yeah. Yeah, Jim. For sure. I I I you you know, Tom, detective Lang is correct. That, you know, there was there was OJ's Bronco, which was believed to be the Bronco used in the actual slayings, and that was brought in for evidence, taken apart, analyzed for blood and DNA and so forth. The but the Chase car was driven by and owned by AC Cowellings. And as at Inside Edition, in 2016, we tracked down that car, and OJ's former manager bought the car, and it had only been driven about 20 miles since that long long ago chase. And I got an opportunity to sit in the car to drive in it, and I was actually in the back where OJ was was allegedly holding a gun to his head threatening to take his own life. And I have to tell you, when you talk about surreal moments, it was so unusual. This was up around the San Jose Fresno area in in California. And and to be in this vehicle that was so famous and had captured imagination of so many people, it was a surreal moment to be inside that vehicle. Oh, what what a get for you. What an what an amazing story. By the way, Hertz, you know, OJ represented Hertz. So Hertz gifted OJ that car and apparently, Al Collins as well. They had similar Broncos from Hertz. Kato? A a quest yeah, Tom. And, question for, Jim is when you were in that that, Bronco, did you get, like, driving? Did people give you that double take look like that's the Bronco? Did they recognize were you seeing in the Bronco? We were we were in a fairly small community, and it was this was this was 2016. We had a we had a drone shot because we wanted to get an aerial shot, but it was a very small community. 1 or 2 cars drove by and and it because of the cameras and so forth, they were looking, but but it wasn't it was it didn't attract a lot of attention because we weren't in a high profile area. Zoey Tur wasn't above in a helicopter. Zoe Tur was not above that. Zoe Zoe and just to make make people aware, Zoe, was then Bob Tur, a tremendous, asset and helicopter pilot for local news here in Los Angeles. And and Bob, or Zoe, actually was the person who captured the images and follow followed along with that chase, an amazing bit of of of news gathering and flying at the same time. Yeah. Very well said, Jim. As a matter of fact, we've had Zoe on our show. So if you're new to our channel, go back and watch our old content. We have every angle of the OJ saga covered from front to back. Zoey Tur was on several weeks ago and she's fascinating. I'm gonna drop a couple clips from her episode a few weeks ago in so you get her perspective. But the most interesting thing about her chase was, she got a tip that OJ was going to Laguna to the gravesite of Nicole. So, she buzzed out there at the time and owned the story for 20 minutes, and was actually throwing all the other news helicopters off the scent by lying where she was. So, that just adds another whole dramatic element to it. So, we're gonna get to that. By the way, I mentioned that the timeline is gonna surprise you. The chase didn't start till 6 o'clock. The press conference at Parker Center was at 10 AM, and that's where detective Tom Lang is waiting to book him, to finish this, to get this thing done for the day he doesn't show. And and Tom, you know David Garcon and you could sense the anger in his voice in that press conference. He's a spokesperson. He's supposed to be cool and calm and collected to talk to the media. But could you feel the tension rise, Tom, in in Parker Center, like, oh my god. Now we're pissed off. He's running from us. He's supposed to be here. Now it's taken on a whole new dimension. Well, there was a lot of, attention, but what struck me more than that, once we we cleared the DA's office and I went back to my office and we're gonna sit down and and decide how are we gonna handle this, all everybody showed up all of a sudden around my desk. And the chief was there, a couple other people. No one it was like they were there to listen, not to speak. And so I'm thinking that all of this heavyweight brass, you know, maybe somebody can come up with a a decision on how we're gonna do this. Nobody knew what to do next. And all of a sudden, somebody said, we have a a small television up in the corner of this and the squad they and it was on, and all of a sudden somebody yelled, hey, it's it's OJ and he's on the TV. And so I look up, and there he is, of course, in the white Bronco. And I'm thinking to myself, s**t. Here we go. Now we're what we're really into it. And they're looking at me, I'm looking at them. Nobody knew what to do. And so we just watched for a while. And one thing, of course, led to another. And I don't know if you want to start into that now. Sure. And, you know, Tom, let me I I can lead you into that a little bit too because, you know, look, there's this is a volatile moment. Right? Because he's got a gun. He's got $9,000 in cash, and he's got a disguise. I mean, he's got I mean, think about what his intentions must have be. Kato, let me ask you this question. Did you ever know that Kato that, OJ had a gun? I mean, I'm I'm trying to figure out if this was his gun. Was well, did he ever have it out? Do you think this was his gun? Well well, I personally am a I've always hated guns. I've I've so I never asked him if he had a gun. I assumed he had a gun being a celebrity. I assumed that, knowing I, that he had, yeah, obviously, he was part of, I think, the board of Swiss Army Knife, so I I kinda knew that he probably had knives. And, but I I assume there's a gun, but, no, I had no no knowledge of him having a a gun. Yeah. Sure. And, Jim, let me ask you this. Just for perspective from your, you know, expert angle. You know, everybody knows there's nobody on the planet that doesn't know who the Kardashians are now. And then when you think about it that's why this story is fascinating to younger people if they dig in and find out about it. Because OJ, when he fled, was at Robert Kardashian's house. That's his attorney. Chris was best friends with Nicole. How how much in the public consciousness were the Kardashians slash Jenners at that point in 1994? Did you have to be in the inner circle to know who they were? You knew Bruce Jenner because Bruce Jenner was an Olympian and Bruce Jenner was a broadcaster, but nobody knew the Kardashians. This is before, Paris Hilton, before Kim Kardashian, before the TV show, the Kardashian. I'm telling you, without OJ Simpson, there would be no Kardashians, really, and as we know it today. It's it's I I do wanna say something also because you've got 2 guests on that I think deserve some credit. Kato and and detective Lang were both much maligned during the trial and I think unfairly. I think Cato had a great deal of pressure on him. He lived, you know, he was a house guest. He was known as America's house guest. Right? He had a lot of pressure. He was afraid. He was he he was very maligned as was detective Van Adder. I think that I I I and and and, detective Lang. I think the LAPD did an excellent job in in investigating this case. I I think that, there were rightfully, that, you know, when you're a defendant, you wanna attack everything you can. I don't take that away from the defense at all, but I think a lot of mistakes were made on the prosecution side on who to put on as witnesses. But I I I have to say I respect both of your guests tremendously. And and through the years, they've only shown themselves to be of the highest quality and character. So I I wanna just say that and put that on the record. Yeah. No. Thanks, Jim. That's very well said. I appreciate it. Thank you. Yep. And and and, yeah, everybody knows and loves Kato. With our podcast now, everybody gets to gets to see the real Kato. And and and when we Oh, yeah. Keep watching our podcast because there's so many big things happening in Kato Kaelin's world that's just unbelievable. And and detective Tom Lang is a legend. He is an icon. He everybody knows that it has half a brain. And Tom, we just, you know, really respect the fact and appreciate the fact you're on the show. Tom, let me ask you this question. OJ had a gun in the white Bronco during the chase. We all know that. He had the cash. He had the disguise. It's not like he had access back to his house in in on Rockingham. Right? Could he have gone back there and gotten a gun, or did somebody have to supply him the gun? The gun? The gun is another story entirely. I I don't know if you how much you wanna get into this, but it's it's an interesting fact as to how he just it got the gun to begin with. The gun was actually purchased along with 5 other weapons from the LA Police Police Academy, equipment store located at the academy time prior, by an LA police officer who is now deceased. He was a, a commander at the time, and this was given to Simpson by someone else who he gave one of these guns to. But it was purchased by an LA cop. In fact, there was a an internal investigation regarding the gun as well as several other things. There were were, like, 9 internal investigations that came out of this criminal investigation by the LAPD, and this was one of them. At the time, it was legal. It's not legal today to buy it, to purchase a weapon the way it was purchased and pass it on to someone else without registering it. But that's how Simpson ended up with this gun. It was actually purchased by an LA cop. Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Having been said, we didn't know initially that he had the gun. The gun was spotted by one of these sheriffs in pursuit of the Bronco, waving around inside the car. And, of course, AC, followed up with that. I don't even know that AC might have known that he had the gun. He had a an overnight bag that all had all of this material into all of these things you've mentioned, including a passport, a lot of cash. We didn't know that at the time. The only thing we knew that he had in that in that, Bronco at the time eventually was the gun. If we'd have known that he had this overnight bag with also a couple of pairs of underwear and the his hall of fame ring and $88 in cash, All of these other disguise kit might have been handled a little differently as far as my conversation with him went. But my conversation strictly had nothing to do with anything except the fact that he had a gun. And if he has a gun, we verified it. You have to assume it's real. You have to assume it's loaded. But beyond everything else, you have to assume he can use it. Yep. Okay. So and where's what? They sent him back. We sent SWAT to Rockingham to set up. Once we realized that he had turned around, he was heading back, towards LA. So we had to be prepared for all that. But this had nothing to do with with what some people think. They should have tried to elicit some type of, of an some kind of an admission or a confession, from Simpson. That was the last thing on my mind. You've got someone in his condition, and he sounded like he was under the influence to me, sounded very tired. Who knows what someone's gonna do when they're in the next condition. Yep. So I had to play it really close to the vest. Yep. Okay. So we're gonna come back to it because that's probably the most dramatic moment or one of them of that day. 30 years ago today, June 17, 1994, when Tom Lang talked to OJ Simpson in the car. But, Kato, let me get back to you for a second. Do were you thinking at the time that maybe he turns himself in, I can kind of get on with my life here until the trial or whatever. But because because everything changed, you know, when he when he did the Bronco chase, but where where were you know, I know, you know, you you end up watching the NBA game that night. But in the back of your mind, were you kinda hoping that maybe something could kinda turn back to normal for a little while? Well, I I I think I knew immediately when I saw people lined up on the streets on the 4 or 5. I knew when they had signs the juice is loose. I knew when when the people were rooting for OJ, life was not gonna be the same because I saw how people responded to him because no one knew anything because the trial hadn't started yet. Everybody was that was an OJ fan became and those that weren't became OJ fans because he's running from the police, and they're rooting on the criminal. And I had said earlier in the in the podcast, gentlemen, I didn't mean that, but, being OJ. But I I realized that nothing was gonna be the same, Tom, because you saw, like I said, from the media with the game going to the small screen and then not even on TV anymore, to the people cheering cheering on a a fugitive of the law. Nothing was gonna be the same because there was nothing ever like it. And it became if it was scripted, people would say, no. It's not it's too unbelievable. Well, it's believable, and it did happen. It did happen. You know, that's kinda where the racial lines were drawn, you know, early on that we saw all the way through the through the trial. Hey, Jim. Your day, when did it start? Were you were you on the air during the Parker Center press conference? And then you saw everything. So it's almost like you're a sports announcer, isn't it? You're getting fed information. OJ's here. This is happening. Is that how you had it? Were you on the air throughout the Bronco chase? No. That well, Larry King was actually on the air for CNN at the time. This was a prelude. It was just a preview of what was to come for my life that I didn't realize at the time because I really took over. I I had covered the investigation from from the murder standpoint, the day of the crime, and and, obviously, it was a horrific scene, and local and national media were there. But it was really beginning with the preliminary hearing, 9 day preliminary hearing, 6 day preliminary, something like that, and then a 9 month trial. And and there was a, you know, there was questions. Bernard Shaw was the lead anchor for CNN at the time. There were questions about him taking over the coverage. He didn't wanna do it. He thought it was beneath the network, I believe. And and since I was the only LA anchor, the only lawyer on staff at the time, they gave it to me because initially people are going, why is the entertainment guy anchoring this very serious trial? And it's because I'm a lawyer. So, you know, and and, you know, did detective Lang brings up a really interesting point about the gun because a lot of people were saying that the LAPD wanted to frame OJ Simpson and that it's so patently ridiculous because OJ Simpson was beloved by so many people, including cops. He had police at his house all the time. He had people revered him. So the idea that there was this master plan to somehow take him down and single him out amongst all the people in LA is you're the person who killed your your ex wife and and Ron Goldman was ridiculous. So, yeah, we have to remember that. There were so many I think it was the beginning of the conspiracy theory as well, this trial Mhmm. With with with the Colombian mobs being involved and and and Faye Resnick and all these different characters that were coming out of the woodwork. And and, you know, the defense did a great job of sowing doubt, but it it's so frustrating when you really sit back and analyze the facts and see what happened. And I'm sure this happened. Mhmm. Yeah. And and and, Tom, you know, it just speaks to your career. I mean, you were in the middle of everything. That's because you were the best. Right? You were there investigating the murder scene right away, and then you're at Parker Center with a phone in your hand and having to call OJ Simpson. And that just takes us to that next just like you can't make this up. If you were to, pitch this story to Hollywood executives, they'd laugh your a*s right out of the conference room. They wouldn't believe it. They wouldn't buy it. So, Tom, just walk everybody through where you were in Parker Center, where the phone was. Did you call AC's number? Is that who you called? And just how the phone call went down. Okay. Well, I was sitting there, and, again, everybody was just mumbling and looking at the the so called pursuit. Hopefully, trying to think of a way out of this or what are we gonna do next type of thing because we're not looking really, really good here. So I was taught many years ago someplace where, there was a very bad situation going on. And I learned very young that you sometimes you have to make a decision, period. Right? Wrong? Do not be indifferent. You have to make a decision under some circumstances. Results be damned. So I made a decision that I'm gonna try to phone him because I knew that he had a mobile phone. I got a hold of Patty Jew Fairbanks at the DA's office, and we were talking and she said she had just happens to have this phone number. And I said, well, it probably means not that he's not gonna pick up. Just give it to me. We'll try something. We've got to do something. So as he gave me the number and I dialed the phone, and there's no way it dialed by the way. We used to dial and, there's no way he's gonna pick up. Well, it rang twice and he picked up. It kinda caught me off guard. And I said, you know, initially, OJ, this is this is Tom Lane. We need to talk to you, and we started to talk. And he was obviously under the influence or something or very tired or probably both. And at that moment, when I first talked to him, I didn't realize he had a gun. So I'm just trying to talk to him because in the back of my mind, I thought that, well, what is he gonna do? It could be anything. Maybe he doesn't know what he's gonna do. So I just started to talk to a lot of his kids about this will all be over soon. No worry about it. Things have a tendency to work themselves out. Right now you need to turn yourself in, all this type of stuff. And then all of a sudden somebody kind of just whispered at me. He said, he's got a gun. 1 of the sheriffs saw a gun. So I'm thinking, well, now it's getting a little a little more complicated. And then they said, oh, by the way, he's waving it around. So now I'm thinking, well, is he gonna shoot himself, shoot AC, shoot back at the cops, chasing them? I didn't know. Again, if you don't have an answer to something, try to engage him. You don't wanna give this guy time to think. Yeah. So I wanted to engage him to think about anything except the gun. Yeah. It's in other than that, that was just getting rid of it and throwing it out. So now I was able to concentrate on the gun again, knowing it was probably real loaded and they might use it. So that was my only thought here. Yep. So it with the gun in mind, I should argue again a lot of kids and everything else. Well, at this point, somebody ran in with a recorder and hooked up my phone because the first conversation was recorded. So they got it hooked up and then we continued to talk and then I would lose him from time to time. I think I called him back 3 or 4 times. And each time he picked up, which in my mind was good. This means he wants to talk. Maybe we can get his mind off of the gun. Maybe he can get rid of the gun because now everybody knows there's a gun, swats en route to his home. We don't want this to get any any more complicated than it is. So just concentrate on talking to him, get his mind off of anything else you may have, and then try to concentrate on that gun and get rid of the gun. That was the only thing we talked about all the way back because if he gets all the way back to Rockingham and it was gonna be dark probably at that time. And he steps out of that Bronco with a gun in hand, SWAT has snipers and they would down him now. That would not be good at all. No kidding. Tell him what You know, and Tom you know? You know? Okay. I'm gonna get you one second, you know, because I want you and Jim to follow-up with this too. But let me just say this. Yeah. Put yourself in Tom Lang's shoes. Alright? He's not a hostage negotiator. He just happens to be one of the greatest detectives to ever wear a badge. His job was to keep OJ talking so they end up where they're going, and he doesn't kill himself. Imagine the spectacle if he did. And with him, you never know. He probably was too much of a narcissist or a sociopath to actually do it, but he's he had a gun. It could happen. So, Tom, I think what you did was so amazing. I'm gonna ask Tom one quick follow-up, guys, and then I want you to take it for the next, couple minutes. But, Tom, did you know you were live on TV when you were talking to him? Well, no. It was being tape recorded. We were tape recording it, but I wasn't did did he was live on TV? Well, because it did eventually get played everywhere. So the what what the network's got was a recording? Okay. Got you. Yeah. No. I I was we were recording, obviously, for evidential reasons, that, you know, who knows what what's gonna happen. So someone had the foresight to grab a tape recorder and hook it up. But, you know, that wasn't really concerned about that. I was just concerned about what was going out in front of me. Yep. Cato, what did you have? Well, I I a few things real quick. I think, Tom's, one of the live calls, was I think it was Vince Evans that was live, a quarterback. I think I I got that name right. It was Vince Evans. And, can you I was just gonna say, can you guys imagine? Can you imagine if this trial happened this year in 2024? Because first of all, Tom Lang's call, first of all, no one picks up a phone call anymore. There's gotta be a text or it's a spam or something, but think about that. No one picks up the talks anymore. So Tom Lane got very, very lucky. And the other point I wanna make is, Jim Moran mentioned earlier that he was the only lawyer on staff at CNN, so they thought they'd have a lawyer because he was the entertainment reporter. I think it's both, Jim, because this was entertainment. So you were the perfect person being a lawyer, and it was an entertainment show because people saw this as a TV or a movie immediately. I am excited to introduce the sponsors of the OJ Simpson saga that you're watching, my trusted friends at American Hartford Gold. While we like the shocking world of celebrity scandal, don't let financial scandals threaten your retirement funds. We're all feeling the bite of soaring inflation. 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Again, that's 866-718-8939, or simply text Tom to 9 98899. You know, I can't emphasize it enough. Make sure you protect your savings with American Hartford Gold, our sponsors who made this saga all come together. How did the day start for you, Zoe? June 17th. Well, it started with us learning that OJ Simpson was gonna give himself up, that there was an arrest warrant, and that homicide detectives had made arrangements with his lawyers that, for OJ's surrender at Parker Center. So, like, you know, every other member of the media that didn't have something going on, I went down there or was assigned to the story. So I flew down there with my crew, landed at a parking lot just, 2 blocks from LAPD, you know, LAPD headquarters. And then, you know, closed the helicopter doors, locked them, walked across the street, down the street to Parker Center, and there was, oh, easily about a 100 100 reporters, camera operators, radio reporters, photographers standing by waiting for the surrender, and more reporters were coming. So, I took the camera. I put the camera on my shoulder, and I was trying to get in tight, you know, and get into a good position. And then after a while, we you know you know, OJ wasn't, there. He was supposed to show up. He was now late. And finally, lieutenant Gascon from the LAPD showed up to talk to members of the press. He was with, press relations, and he said that OJ Simpson was in the wind. And I I mean, I, like, what does that even mean? And I said, what do you mean OJ Simpson's in the wind? And the lieutenant looks at me and says, OJ Simpson's a fugitive from justice, you know, and we're, you know, we're searching for him. You know? There's an all points bulletin, blah blah blah. And I was shocked. OJ Simpson, a man that golfed with the president, a celebrity, a superstar, a movie star, a football star, Heisman trophy winner, was now a murder spot suspect, but not not just that. He's now a fugitive, and that made him look very, very guilty. So, I mean, the people were shocked. The reporters were shocked. And I looked at my crew, and I said, we gotta go find this guy. Let's go back to the copter. We're gonna find this guy. You know, I didn't know how, but I just kind of, like, said that. And we went back to, the helicopter. We went back, you know, open the doors, climbed in. I I started the helicopter and within a couple of minutes, we were airborne. And then I said, you know, who's got ideas? Where do you think he is? And one person thought he might be over a ridgeline and he was gonna commit suicide, you know, at sunset, blah blah blah, which sounded very romantic. You know, the other guy, the other person on board was Larry Welk the third, the bandleader's, grandson who worked for me as a, as a pilot. And, Larry was, you know you know, he didn't know. He, you know, he he he didn't really have an idea. And I thought maybe he'd go down to the gravesite of Nicole Simpson Brown, and it and maybe he'd, either commit suicide or he'd do some sort of passion play down there because I always thought OJ was kind of a bit of a narcissist. Anyway, so I flew down there, and, and I got down to the gravesite down in Orange County, not too far from where the El Toro y is. And if you're from Southern California, you know it's like where the 5 freeway and the 405 meet down in Southern Orange County. So, I went down there, went to the gravesite, and there was an undercover car parked outside this the cemetery. So clearly, they had the place staked out, but there was no OJ. And around this time, we're learning that OJ Simpson has been spotted, and he's believed to be in a white Bronco. So now we're we're looking for a white Bronco. We have more information. And I'm also listening to FBI frequencies and our assignment desk, And I get a radio call on our encrypted radio between the newsroom and the helicopter from Mary Helen Campos, who's our assignment editor. And she said, you know, somebody says they see OJ Simpson, you know, in the area near where you you are. And I'm also hearing stuff on the FBI radio, and Mary Helen's listening to the same frequencies, And she's saying, it's the El Toro y. And I and I looked down, and I'm over the El Toro y. You know? And I'm looking and I'm moving now. I'm deciding to go north on the on the freeway. Right. You know, and there is a white bronco. And I don't know if it's OJ yet. And then a sheriff's unit shows up and another one and a CHP unit and cop after cop, but the driver does not pull over. So that's a pretty good indication we've got OJ. I think the what I said was, you know, we got him. We got him. Put get us on the air. Get us on the air. And I can only imagine the s**t show at KCBS when that happened. You know, everyone's screaming, rushing, putting talent on, you know, the set, you know, everything getting everything together, getting ground crews to intercept, trying to figure out where he's, you know, kind of like a news, trigonometry, trying to find out where he's going, when he's gonna get there. You know? So we're relaying all this information in real time. But once we went on the air live, you got to imagine what happened at, you know, 6 other TV stations and 3 network bureaus and radio stations, you know, in, you know, in Los Angeles at that time. And and so they go on their, you know, the news directors, the editors, the assignment editors start getting on their two way radios, and they're screaming, find that motherf**ker. Can you find that f**ker? And I mean, they're literally cussing on the radio, you know? So, they're they're angry. You know? They're angry that their cameras aren't there, that their crews aren't there. It's literally the biggest story maybe of of the decade. Oh, come on. It's not ever. Yeah. Ever. And and so they were desperately trying to find us. And, you know, so we were giving out radio location reports, having us, like, 20 miles somewhere else in Newport Beach. Tom, so how long you know, the the chase was 2 hours, basically. Right? Did you know or did you guys have any idea? Were you making guesses where he was going? I mean, he came up from Orange County. He was on the 5. He gets on the 405. He lives off the 405 basically in Sunset in Brentwood. So that's the trajectory he was going. But then you keep going north. You could be going back to the Kardashians house. Right? So did you have any idea? Could you anticipate where he was headed? No. Initially, we thought perhaps the border. And later on, we're thinking, well, with all the stuff that he had in that overnight bag, it it may have been the board. Again, I don't think he knew what he wanted to do. We find out later at the cemetery, he see failure is gonna kill himself. All of a sudden, then he kept going back northbound, but again, going very slow. AC had to know they're not going anywhere. Since he has a gun, you don't wanna force a stop. You don't wanna do a pit maneuver. You don't wanna try to run them off their load because you have someone who is probably having little little problem mentally at this particular time. I mean, you know, he's a murder suspect. He knows that. He's got a gun. You got people now. He's he's approaching, northbound in the West LA area that are actually running out of the freeway. People soon if you start shooting, there's gonna be a big problem. Keep him engaged, assuming that he's gonna go back to the house, and then he alluded to that. So we started about going talking back to the house. We already knew that that was gonna be covered. So it was pretty much understood that he was gonna return to Rockingham. So all I had to do is keep his mind on our conversations and the gun, please don't get out of the car with the gun in your hand type of thing and throw it out the window if you can, this type of thing. That was the only consideration at the time. There was pretty obvious he was going back Yep. To Rockingham. Yep. And we're gonna get to the point where he ends up at Rockingham. And, Tom, he probably saved his life by just talking to him because if he had held that gun walking out of the car, it's over for OJ. Show canceled at that moment. So, Tom, we're gonna come back to when he ends up at at Rockingham. But, Jim, when you're watching this too, it's it's just the surreal factor of it. Right? And then, like, Jim, you're a trained newsman. You've been in TV forever. I've been in TV for a very long time. We're trained to think ahead of what we're gonna say. Right? We're always thinking 2 or 3 questions ahead in a follow-up. But with Tom Lange talking to OJ, a life and death situation with the whole world watching. And he's not used to that. He's not a broadcaster. He's not a hostage negotiator. Don't you just marvel at the job he did? He had to keep him calm. He had to keep him talking. He had to keep him alive. Those are that's his job right there, and he did a great job of it. Again, I was thinking it it was so strange because we were all observers at this point. We didn't know what was to come. We didn't know about the trial. We didn't know about the spectacle, about the stories, and so forth. But I I had thought back. The last time that I'd seen OJ in person was 5 days earlier, the day prior, just prior to the murders because our daughters were in the same dance school. So I saw OJ Simpson. I saw Nicole at the recital where our daughters were performing that day. And and and I remember, you OJ was always so he people couldn't help but come up to him. Hey, Juice. How are you doing? OJ, how are you doing? He'd often be giving out tickets, trying to sell more tickets to the recital. They sat separately that day. I didn't really think anything of it, but we know now that there there was some friction about whether he was gonna go out to dinner with them that night, whether he was gonna be with them. Did she she was bugged with him about something. And and, you know, to think back on that and having witnessed it in person, it was and then to see it play out and then to watch all of this unfold with this chase and then to see him finally get out of the car and surrender himself, it was the strangest 5 days, really, and it was just still the beginning of the most bizarre trip we were all about to take. Cato, I don't know about you, Cato. Okay. I don't know about you, but I I need a minute to process that. I had no I I I told Larry King this story once, and I said to him off handedly, I said, you know, I have size 12 Bruno Marley shoes because I loved those shoes at that time. And and I was a guest on the show, and he said, Marsha Clark, we have another suspect. And I said, Larry, why did you say that? I I I'm anchoring the coverage. He says, great show. That is, that is the gem boy. These are great these are amazing stories. Yeah. You know, I I Tom, I I I wanted to go back for a second, to Tom Lange, and and actually to everybody to ask a question here. I think when the Bronco Chase started, I think OJ was was, depressed because I think he had to admit guilt. That's what my feeling was. Now, Tom Lange, do you think when he saw fans shouting and going, he saw this response, Do you think his mind changed and he said, I'm gonna get out of this thing. People love me. Do you think there's a chance it happened, or do you think it was that he always always knew he's gonna get out of this trial? Or do you think that swayed him a little bit knowing people love me? I'm gonna win this thing. I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, certainly, but I've dealt with a lot of sociopaths. I think I know what a sociopath is, and I believe Simpson was beyond a narcissist. I believe he was a sociopath. I think because of that, he probably felt exactly what you said. Yep. It was probably a boost to him to think that, hey, We're gonna get through this perhaps. It's a sociopath the greatest minds in medicine can't explain exactly what a sociopath is. Over the years, I believe that there are levels of sociopaths. He was a a very high level one because I believe he was a psychopath, which means he could kill again type of thing. Yeah. So when you see something like that, it might have worked exactly the way you said, Kato. I think it's pretty possible that, he did think, hey. There's there's a chance I'm gonna get through this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good point, Kato. And and look, Kato lived on the same property as OJ, knew him. Tom Lang got to know him very, very well. I knew OJ for 30 years. I've been around him working with NBC and our paths crossed many, many times. And, Jim, you lived in LA. Just run into celebrities. You know them, especially when you live in West LA and Brentwood and whatnot. But, Jim, I just have to ask you one more follow-up question. Did you have any did you see anything that night at the recital? Was there tension with him and Nicole? Any arguments? Did you did he look like a guy on the verge of snapping? No. He didn't. I mean, I I did notice they I I I I seem to recall they sat in separate rows, which I thought was strange because you you you know, I'd seen them the year before, and and I I I I thought they sat together, but I didn't think anything of it at the time. You know? It's it just seemed like, you know, your divorce, you may sit in separate rows. It's not a big deal. There are a lot of people in Brentwood who are divorced, and they get along just fine. I didn't think anything was going to happen. I had no premonition. I had no sense or inkling that he was bugged or angry. Whatever happened, I think happened later after the recital, but I think the seeds were planted at the recital. Yeah. Yeah. And, Jim, did you did you actually say hi to him that night or I did. I didn't know Nicole, but I saw OJ and and everybody said hi to OJ. He was very, very friendly guy. People loved him. He loved adulation. He loved to say hi. He loved to pose with fans. He people say, hey, Juice. How you doing? You shake your hand. He he was he was very gracious. Gosh. You know, and just to think about that, man. I get chills just thinking about it that Jim Marais saw her in the final hours of her life. It's just absolutely unbelievable. Everything about this story is just so hard to fathom. By the way, make sure you subscribe to our channel because we have this type of content. You get the full k train out of every one of these episodes. It's 2 years old. We're over 60 episodes. So make sure you subscribe to this channel. Go check out all our old content. And hit us with some comments. I know we're getting thousands and thousands of comments on this episode. This is epic. Putting these 2, these 3 legends together at the same time is such a treat. On June 17th. We're doing this literally right now as I look at my watch, it's 10 o'clock. This is when David Garcon is saying at Parker Center, OJ Simpson is a fugitive of the law. Happened 30 years ago. Right now, as we're taping this, it's unbelievable. So again, the timeline, press conference 10 o'clock. OJ came from Robert Kardashian's house. Just happened to have a gun, $9,000 cash into disguise. Yeah. That's a guy that's gonna turn himself in, isn't it? So they'd know whereabouts for the next few hours, and then 6 o'clock, Zoey Tur finds him in in the helicopter, follows for 20 minutes, and then another great show to go check out is the one we did with Conan Nolan of NBC. His news vehicle, Kato, was in front of OJ's Bronco leading the chase. I mean, another surreal situation. Well, also, Tom, it's just been the shows. And, honestly, I've said this before. I go back in time, I'm sure, for Tom Lang and Jim Morey, when you talk about it like we are now, it's like it's that day. It's just you I just got these feelings of, man, it's been 30 years. It just blows my mind, and yet I talked to you guys and I'm like, it it feels like yesterday. Yeah. And and I'm just telling you, you guys being on the show, Tom Zener, we're blessed to have the incredible show because of, Tom Lange and Jim Moran. I really mean that from my heart. Yeah. And sidebar, Jim Morey is dressed up because he's heading to the Emmys today. The daytime Emmys, another nomination for the great Jim Morey at Inside Edition. Are you gonna are you gonna take one home? Win, Jim. Are you gonna win one today, Jim? Come on, man. 8th nomination, 0 wins. Okay. Let me ask you Here's the the good news though, Tom, that you can actually buy an Emmy on on on eBay. Hey, Jim. Do would you do you wanna win or is it a better story being like the Susan Lucci and just you something funny to talk about? You might as well get the trophy. Right? I would like to get a trophy, but we get participation points, I guess. I don't know. Hey, man. You get a good meal out of the deal. Right? We do. You get a good meal, a free meal. Okay. That's great. Alright. Well, let let let's take let's take it now to later in the evening. Chase is 6 o'clock until 8 o'clock. And and and that's why a lot of people get confused because it's bright out. It's summertime in LA. Right? So it's sunny. This time, Tom, you know, you'd seen it all. You've you've already talked to OJ, kept him alive with your conversation. You've seen the spectacle, you see the people. I don't know how they had time to make signs, but they were making signs on the freeway overpasses on the 405. You knew the circus was just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, And then, okay, now like a great movie, how is this thing gonna end? Is there gonna is he gonna kill himself? How does it end? You figure it out, he's going to his house on Rockingham. Talk to us about the snipers that were there and the police presence, and and and and what the snipers are trained to do because those guys are ready for action. What would it have taken for them to do something? Okay. All of a sudden, it's dark, and we see the, parade coming up, Rockingham. And I'm thinking to myself, it's showtime. And we're gonna know in about 2 minutes what's gonna happen. So I continued. In fact, I pressed it about the gun. Do not get out of the car with the gun. Leave the gun. Don't do anything. Just step out, leave the gun in the car, don't do this type of thing. So they pull in the driveway and of course we knew that SWAT was there. SWAT, they train as much as anybody and they know exactly after about 2 minutes of looking at the the layout at Rockingham, where they would set a sniper. Obviously, the driveway was covered and they were, they were concealed. No one could actually see them. I guess, if you're looking at the house of the, from the outside, from Rocky Mount, but they were set up around the driveway because that was assumed at the time that that's where he would pull in. The gate was open because normally it's closed, but they had the gate open. We knew there were people there waiting for him, so they assumed it would be the Rockingham entrance. They also had the street covered. So the only thing now we have, like I said, it's showtime. Please do not get out of the car with a gun in your hand. They would have no other choice. So he pulls in and I'm talking to him. He's obviously at this point, he didn't hang up, but the phone is on on the on the floorboard and I'm still talking, but he is not talking to me now. He's being yelled at by from by Jason, his son. And so they start going back and forth, and then somebody goes out and grabs Jason, and they're yelling back and forth. He's not getting out of the out of the car, and so this exacerbates everything in my mind. What is he gonna do? Maybe he didn't know again what he was gonna do. This goes on for several minutes until finally he's he gets out of the car and, you know, thank God he leaves the gun behind. And then we saw what happened after that. There are a couple of officers and SWAT grabbed him as he came out. But for that few minutes, nobody knew what was gonna happen. And, to this day, I obviously don't know what was going through his mind. I don't think he knew what to do at that point because if you're home after this long, the drive down south, Atlanta just get out of your car, tune yourself in. And for some reason, he wasn't getting out right away. That caused a lot of problems in my mind. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Kato. What do you think OJ was thinking when he was in that car? Because that's another 2 hours or or so. Do you think, how do I make this the most dramatic I can? How do I become a hero? How do I make myself sympathetic? What do you think he was thinking? You know, I honestly, what I had said before, I think that he was in a total depression until he saw the fans on the 405. And I thought even at that moment, I think he tried tried to play it out a little bit longer. He knew there were cameras around, and, I I think that was his change of heart seeing his ego being stroked, and he knew it was gonna be okay. And that was that's what my opinion was of how he's gonna go out there. Never he was gonna shoot himself. He loved himself way too much, and he knew somehow with his, dream team that he was eventually get, he was gonna he was gonna pull through. Jim, you can look at this from so many angles as a newsman, entertainment reporter, attorney. You knew cops. You know, there's a thing called death by suicide. Right? Or a cop suicide. He could've walked out and boom, it's over. Those snipers would've taken him out. What do you think he was thinking? Do you think all that stuff was going through his mind? Or do you think he was under the influence? Or have you have you formed an opinion on that? I think he was depressed. I think Katie was right. I think he had gone down to the gravesite, and I think that, I don't know that he knew what he was going to do. I don't think it was a great plan to to make himself sympathetic for a potential jury. I don't think he was thinking that far ahead. I think that, I I think he was really mired in depression at that point, and I think that detective Lang's call may have kept him alive, to be honest with you, because he was a calming influence. And and the goal is really to get him talking and and stay on on that line and and not and not do anything crazy. Yeah. I think that's a really good point because, I don't think as much of a sociopath as OJ Simpson is that he would have actually killed himself. But if he was under the influence, he could have done something like that. I could have seen it potentially ending up. My quick theory is, I don't know if it was depression. I think he was sitting in that car for 2 hours in the driveway in Rockingham thinking, holy s**t. It's over. I can't get out of this one. He just went to the gravesite. You know, he could lie to everybody else. He could probably lie to himself, but deep down he knew he did this, He was responsible for it and a s**t storm was coming. You know, and I think he thought it was the end. And then Tom, maybe take us now, You know, they get him inside. He has a glass of milk or a glass of OJ with his mom. Then they take the police take him down. They escort him down to Parker Center, and then you and Philip Anadar are waiting. Right? Do you take it from there? Yeah. The, the, detectives just brought him into Parker Center where we were waiting. He was thrashed. Of course, we were kind of thrashed emotionally also after going through all this all day long. He didn't have much to say. My partner, Phil Banner, looked at him and said, OJ, I guess you you you must have missed you. He said you missed your appointment this morning. Simpson didn't say anything. We knew he wasn't going to. So we booked him in, and, that was that. And, of course, we we had a lot in front of us to sit down and discuss this whole thing and how we're gonna handle this with the DA. Yep. Cato, you know, there's been movies, there's been documentaries, the you know, everybody knows about this story. You know, American Crime Story that you were such a big part of that big epic thing in 20 16 on Faa or FX. Great. I thought it was a pretty entertaining show, not very factual. How did they handle the ending? Because I remember vaguely that weren't you involved in there somehow? Yeah. Well, actually actually, I don't wanna make Jim feel bad, but that show won 8 Emmys. So, but, but but having said that, they showed they actually showed me, in the house when the SWAT teams are are, you know, in in the house when OJ is coming into the Bronco. That was all totally made up. I think they just added me in that in that scene, which is funny, Tom, because, when that show came out, it was a blockbuster, won all the ratings on FX, American Crime Story. The New York Daily News asked me to write a story on the first episode. Well, I wrote something that made the New York Daily News and liked it so much they gave me all 10 screeners, and I wrote an article on every one of the shows. And it sort of changed my life because it it was, it it kinda showed people that maybe Cato is kinda smart there, but I I wrote these and it was it really changed my life that I had, you know, sort of a cervix of what I I wrote about this. I said, by episode 3, I said there's too much Cato even for Cato. Okay. That's a that's a tipping point that we haven't really seen. But, Cato, whatever they paid you, they didn't pay you enough. And that was probably therapeutic for you to be able to write it out and not have to be answering interviewing questions. And everybody that knows Kato loves it's impossible not to love Kato. I don't have to say that, but go back and watch all our episodes and you'll see that. Jim, one more side note. Don't watch last week's episode with Ashley Banfield. She had an Emmy in the background. So don't watch that if I'm just joking. Hey, Jim, you know you know that that Fox show though that that Ryan Murphy did, you know, big budget. But isn't it ironic that they couldn't afford enough money for shirts for Kato's actor? It always seemed like he was shirtless running. Kato, what was up with that? You know, the actor Billy Magnusson that played that, great choice and all that. You know? It's it's pretty good that his career is gigantic. He's actually, the one of the leads in the last Bond film, No Time to Die. I said, wait a minute. I saw that movie. I go, he played Kato. So, but no. Like I said, they go for ratings. I did have my own shorts, shirts and shorts as Tom Lane can testify because he came knocking at my door at, 5 AM. Oh, that's a great tease, Kato. Shirt on. That's a great tease. Go back and watch our episode on June 12th where we covered everything. That is just an unbelievably dramatic, episode. So go back and watch that, and you'll see more of Tom Lange. But, Tom, I wanna I wanna turn to you at the end here too. You know, and again, there's just not enough words to, you know, express our gratitude to you for your service to this country, you know, in the marines, and then all the years, you know, solving homicides, a very hard job, and you did it better than anybody. And, Tom, I want you to plug the book that you're writing because, it's about it's about serial killings in LA, and it's, know, everybody knows there's a bunch of them. You know, the Hillside Strangler, which you were involved in. Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker, which you were involved in. And Jim covered that story. But, Tom, if you could just take us through a little bit about and just in a few seconds because we're gonna do a whole episode on this later, but the serial killer book that you're working on is fascinating because it's more than we know. Right? Well, there are serial killing cases, we have in the book. It's called the dirty business of murder. We finished the book. We're wrapping it up, and hopefully we're gonna go see in the near future. It alludes to a number of cases that I was involved in over a period of, about 22 years when I was at robbery homicide division. And during that time, we were involved in something like the unit was involved in something like 20, 21 serial killing cases with about 30 something suspects and 100 of victims. This is over, like, a 20 year period, going back. LA was known as the serial killer capital of the world at the time. This is before DNA. Most of it was back in the late seventies and into the eighties. And so we bring up 4 or 5 serial killing cases that I was involved in, back then and a number of other, other murders that are not just historical, but it shows you how these things were handled pre DNA. Yeah. We had a cold case unit that they came, came together sometime after that was at robbery homicide. But before a cold case unit, before DNA, we did all the stuff on our own. We would pick up cases that were unsolved and and and work them. DNA changed everything. And today, the cold case unit might just as easily be known as a DNA unit because DNA has sold so many cases since its inception. Right? Since it's inception, you know, in the early nineties, it would DNA is nothing new. It's been around a while, but it wasn't used by law enforcement until the early nineties. Sure. So that changed everything. But these cases that I would bring up were there was a lot of shoe leather involved. A lot of police work, you will get your hands a little more dirtier than they do today. Yep. And that's worthy of several episodes that we're gonna do. Yeah. And, Tom, back in 94, DNA to OJ actually met dude needs alibi. Okay. Yes. It did. Yeah. That was for you, Tom Lang. Hey. Hey, Jim. As we close things up here, you know, how do you how do you look at all this from your perspective? Because you were you were you were already successful, but this elevated you and it and it created a genre that you've thrived in for so many years. Hence all these great Emmy nominations. Are there weird mixed feelings about it because of how it happened? Or, you know, just just tell us, you know, because it did elevate you to a whole new space. You became world famous. Not that you wouldn't have because of that, but it but it took it to a whole new level. It it was really it was a wild ride. It was a it was a huge responsibility. I took it as such, but it it really changed the landscape of TV news. It changed the landscape of the country, really. It it I look at I look at reality television as being spawned by this case. We talked about that earlier. And and there was the time before OJ and the time after OJ. OJ Simpson's murder case changed everything. And I think that we look at everything today through the lens, of that case because we cover cases differently because of it and and the lead up and what's considered news, what's considered tabloid. Much of what was tabloid is now mainstream because of that case, and I and I think it's changed everything for good or bad forever. I am excited to introduce the sponsors of the OJ Simpson saga that you're watching, my trusted friends at American Hartford Gold. While we like the shocking world of celebrity scandal, don't let financial scandals threaten your retirement funds. We're all feeling the bite of soaring inflation. But our financial future is endangered by a host of other problems, like failing banks, astronomical national debt, and a looming recession. It almost feels criminal, but fortunately, there is a way to protect your hard earned retirement savings, physical gold and silver. 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By the way, Kato, people gotta go back and watch the episode we did with Jim Murray maybe a year and a half or 2 years ago because you can hear the explanation about the guitar over his head because it's a great story. Yeah. The guitar, Jim, over your head. We don't have time for that now, but go back and watch that episode in our archives. Kato, I'm gonna leave the last words for you here. Wrap it up. Well, like I said, Tom Zener, our shows are are because of guests like this, the the show has just become incredible, and I can only just say thank you again, to Jim Morey, detective Tom Lange for making this show, I I think, incredible. Yep. Well said. And, guys, I can't thank you enough as well to think that we did this today on the 30 year anniversary of the Bronco chase and everything that went along with that, and then after that, the trial. So so much more ground to cover. We'll do it right here on 1 degree of scandalous. Wow. That was an epic episode. I can't thank Jim Morey and Tom Lang enough. And, of course, the k train, Kato Kaelin, like he always does, bringing the personality as my cohost. What a great part of this 3 part saga. I wanna thank our sponsors, American Hartford Gold, for helping us put this together. Make sure you go into our community page on Tom Zener scandal. I update you on a daily basis of what's coming up, some behind the scenes photos, videos. It's a fun page to engage in, and I'm on that every single day. So make sure you reach out to me there. Listen to this as well. Wherever you get your audio podcast, sometimes you miss things when you watch the YouTube version. So go back when you're in your car and listen to all this. This. Well, thank you for watching the OJ Simpson saga on the Bronco chase. Make sure you click right here for what happened on June 12th with Tom Lang, Allen Park, and Kato, and click here for our special interview with Nicole Brown Simpson's ex boyfriend, Keith Zlomsoich.