Transcript
Thank you for listening to this podcast , one production now available on Apple podcast , podcast , one Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts . This week's Off the Vine is sponsored by Crock's for that year round summary vibe that stylish , easy to wear and comes in five different colors . Head to Cockscomb to buy yours . Starbucks . What gives you energy ? Find your Starbucks triple shot energy online or at your local store European Wax Center . Visit WACs Entercom to book your reservation today and check out the new line of products . Remember your first Wax's Free Geico . Go to Geico Dotcom , get a quote and see how much you could save its Geico easy visit Geico Dotcom today that's Geico Dotcom Rent the runway exclusive offer for my listeners . Use promo code vyn for 30 percent off valid for a limited time . So visit rent the runway dotcom . Today terms and conditions apply and Occy clean visit Occy clean coupons dot com . Right now we're a coupon is waiting for you . Today's episode is brought to you by Crock's for that year round some revive you have to check out the Talum sandal by Crocs Head to Crocs dot com to get your pair today . Today's episode is brought to you by Starbuck's triple shot energy the extra strength coffee beverage in a can . What gives you energy . Find your Starbucks triple shot energy online or at your local store . Hey everybody , you're listening to Kaitlyn Bristow's podcast Off the Vine . Take it away . Free wine , lots of wine being on the tonight . Let's go . Hey , Ronnie . Pino ready for the show ? Everyone's welcome . So come on in . Because of the the better begin a . Welcome to Off the Vine , I'm your host , Caitlin Brastow . First of all , Vinos , I need to tell you that I I've realized I'm getting old . I had to ask my team to ensure any document they sent to me , which I'm not able to edit , or size 16 so I can read them . My gosh , maybe I just need to eat more carrots or get glasses . One of the two . OK , but what makes me feel good about getting older is that I'm getting wiser , especially when I have an extremely smart guess , like today's guest on the pot to keep my brain from going to mush . And I don't know about you , but I just always feel more accomplished in a day when I'm learning something new . So today I have a very intelligent , yet funny and relatable conversation with Dr. Maya Shankar about how you can change people , how you can change their minds . She served in the White House for four years under President Obama . And during that time , she founded and was the chair of the White House's first behavioral scientist team , which I found so fascinating because that job did not exist before . And she called , emailed somebody and created that job for herself , for Obama and got it . It's amazing . She is a graduate of Juilliard , a premiere concert violinist for over 15 years . She got her BA from Yale in cognitive science . And if that wasn't enough , she got her Ph.D. at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar then because you obviously just wasn't smart enough with all of those credentials . She got her postdoc in cognitive neuroscience at Stanford . I mean , I'm just exhausted by saying those titles out loud , let alone everything she's done . But she's just fascinating . She's been featured in New York Times , Forbes , and has a very own podcast , a slight change of plans . She interviewed Hillary Clinton . I was just of truth , kind of intimidated to talk with her , but she really is the sweetest , most humble down to earth , crazy , smart , human . So put on your glasses , tighten your deal , because we're about to learn some new things . Hi , how are you ? I'm good . It's so nice to meet you . I'm a longtime fan . Oh , my gosh . So nice to meet you . Are you are forever the best bachelorette . Oh , my gosh . And thank you for saying that . That's so nice . Both my husband and I are on the same page about this one . So you've got two votes from the Shackley family . Wow , that is amazing . So I got the warm fuzzy . I'm all about the warm fuzzy . Yeah , they're in quarantine . And I like you . I watched your whole season and I was like , yes , dogs won . So do you know what ? I actually have never really watched it . And when I came here , I'm filming for Michelle Season right now and I had to quarantine for a few days and I watched my season and I've never done that before . And it was so strange because I , I thought I mean , obviously I watch back and cringed a few times , but I was actually proud of myself in certain situations . I was like , wow , like those six years ago . And I kind of knew what I was doing . That's awesome . You were very composed . I forget what that jerk's name was . Eric , the Princeton guy . Ian , Ian , the words such a jerk . And you were extremely mature in your response , so . Well , then I was biting my tongue extremely hard there . I remember just being like so many things going through my head . But anyways , thank you for saying that I am . So I usually I'll record my intros like all about you after the podcast so you won't hear the introduction . But holy crap , I mean , it's a long list of extremely impressive education and credentials . And the publications that you've been featured in is absolutely incredible . And something I heard you say in one of your interviews that I really kind of clung to was that all the information in someone's bio is just a highlight reel and that it wasn't all just seamless for you . And I mean , I know you had a significant change in your career path , and we'll get into that in a bit . But in a general sense of that quote and the fact that you were a doctor . Now in behavioral science , how does a bio change someone's perception of somebody else ? Yeah , I mean , I've always felt like in the same way Instagram is just the highlights of your life . I think with a bio , you only see the success stories from a person's life . You don't see the failures . But I think even more importantly , you don't see all the anxiety in those inflection points that that person had when they didn't have the clarity of what the future would hold . You know , it's so easy to look back and think , oh , yeah , of course I was going to figure out my way . But at so many points along the way , if I did my journey and as you know , I've been through many different phases of life . I was a concert violinist and then I was an academic cognitive scientist for a while . And then I was a public policy person in the Obama White House . And I work in tech and I have a podcast . I think at every point I definitely struggle to figure out what would come next . And I just I always want people to appreciate that that's the case because otherwise I feel like life could just be really intimidating if you don't feel that that's a normal part of the process . It's true that your bio is kind of your chance to pump your own tires and be like this is all , but it's not like but I also had anxiety in there and I also struggled to get this . And it was really hard and I almost didn't get this chance . And that's I mean , that's kind of what the bio is for , is to obviously impress people . But that's a good point . And I like that you make that and compare it to Instagram the same way . You know , that's obviously highlight reels . I wanted to talk about kind of a major turning point in your life . And a huge part of your story is that you were a very serious concert violinist and that came to a halt when you had a hand injury . Tell me what happened . Yeah , I know they don't really think of playing the violin as an extreme sport , but I managed to seriously injure myself . Oh , no . So when I was six years old , my mom went up to her attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had brought with her all the way from India when she immigrated to this country in the 70s . And she just expected to show it to me . But Kaitlin , when I opened up that instrument , maybe you had a similar experience at the dance . I don't know . But open up the instrument for the first time in the case . And I looked at it and I touched it and I played it . I just completely fell in love . And my mom says she never had to tell me to practice . She knew that this was genuine passion . And so when I was nine , my parents had no connections in the Western classical music world . Right . My dad's a physics professor . My mom helps immigrants get green cards to study in this country . And so they knew that I had this really big ambition when it came to being a violinist , but they didn't know how to help realize that . And so one of my big goals was to study at Juilliard . That had been something that I'd been eyeing from the time I was a little kid . And so one day when I was in New York with my mom , we were just walking by the Juilliard School of Music . And my mom goes , why don't we just go in ? And I'm like , you . Why don't we just go in and save ? Like , I we don't have an invitation . I don't know anyone . There she goes . Look , we've got your violin with you . Let's just go in and see what happens , see if we can make some connections . So we walk into the building unannounced , uninvited . And she strikes up a conversation with a fellow violin student in the elevator and her mom and simply says , my daughter is an aspiring violinist . Would you mind if you just introduced her to your teacher after your lesson is over ? And they were so generous and kind and agreed to make the introduction and I ended up auditioning for him on the spot and expected me to a summer camp . And I prep that whole summers of boot camp for my audition . And then I ended up getting accepted . And so it was really like my mom's fearlessness that unlocked the whole opportunity for me . But that really put me on the speed train when it came to the violin was like every Saturday I was getting up at four thirty in the morning . My mom and I would drive from Connecticut all the way to New York . I was in ten hours of classes and when I was a teenager , my violin role model and idol Itzhak Perlman asked me to be his private violin student . And for those listeners of yours who are not in the classical music world , you know , he's considered the best violinist of our time . And so he really gave me that vote of confidence that I had what it took to become a pro . And then , as you mentioned , when I was 15 on a single note , I overstretched my finger and I ended up tearing tendons in my hand . That just overnight ended my career as a concert violinist . And that's heartbreaking . Yeah , it was it was so challenging . And you're so frustrated by it . Like you're I mean , as you can tell , I know so much about you because I'm obsessed with you . But anyway , your Dancing with the Stars , you had your own injury with your foot . And you know how incredibly heartbreaking and maddening it is to go through an injury . And I think the reason for that is when you're a go getter type who's always willing to work as hard as you possibly can when suddenly you're confronted with an experience where hard work's not going to be the solution , it can be maddening . And I remember I resisted the doctors diagnoses for weeks and months and I kept continuing to play through the pain and I kept committing myself to these performances that I wanted to do . And finally , reality caught up with me and I knew I could just never play again . And and I had to pivot . But it was it was absolutely heartbreaking . Vinals interrupting this episode to talk about something very near and dear to my heart . And I'm talking about rocks , shoes I'm absolutely obsessed with and know so many of you are , too . But specifically , I got to tell you about the Talum sandals by Crocs . I cannot get over how comfortable . I guess I can . It's crocs , but they're also cute . Plus , like I said before , pretty sure they're named after a Bachelor in Paradise location , which is pretty great if you ask me to go there . But the name isn't the only thing I love . No , no , no . I love how frickin comfortable they are so that I can wear them all day , all night , no matter what I have going on . I love that I can dress them up , dress them down so they pretty much work with every occasion . And I love their asymmetrical . 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Find your Starbucks triple shot energy online or at your local store . But that injury that I had , you know , I wouldn't have been able to do it if it was longer than the time that I had , because I also injured my ribs . And like a lot of the doctors were like , look , you probably shouldn't , but obviously you're going to . And if I had to quit in that moment , I that would take me like I would have to grieve that I would have to be like a long process for me to get over because especially because my childhood dream was to be a dancer and all this stuff . So what helped you grieve the loss of your dream as a violinist and what were like some turning points to pursue a different career ? Yeah , it's a great question . I mean , in psychology , there's a concept called identity foreclosure that I think really helps me to understand that experience better in this stage of my life . And it refers to the idea that we can get really fixed in a certain identity in adolescence and continue through adulthood , but especially in adolescence . We tie ourselves to a very specific thing and we latch our identities to that being in a way that when we lose it , it can shatter your own sense of identity . And I think with that experience at 15 taught me is to see my identity forced me to see my identity as more valuable than I had beforehand , because before I was thinking I am first and foremost a violinist . Before I even Maya , I'm a violinist . That is my sole identity to this day . Like my right shoulder is a little higher than my left . And my spine grew into the ergonomics of the violin just from spending three hours practicing every single day . And so it really was such a formative part of my childhood . And then when I lost it , like I said , I was forced to see my identity as as more malleable . And I think that served me really well as I've gone through the twists and turns that my life has taken ever since because . One insight that I had , and I wonder if this can be helpful to your listeners who are going through a big change , especially an unwanted change , and are trying to figure out how to navigate it , is that if you had asked me as a kid , what is it that you love about the violin , I would have said , oh , I love the way that it feels . I love the sounds that it produced . I love just perfecting a phrase and have it play out exactly in this particular way . But what I realized is that actually the thing that really made me fall in love with the violin is that it allowed me to forge a deep emotional connection with people I had never met before . So as a little kid , right . I'm going on stage . There's thousands of people in the audience were complete strangers to one another . And yet within moments , I can make them feel something they've never felt before . And that is intoxicating to feel like you can connect and bond with people that you've never met in this really beautiful way . And I think what that helped me appreciate is that it's actually humans that I'm obsessed with . Like it's actually that emotional connection drives me . The violin was an instrument to forge a connection , but it actually was that . And I think what that helped me do is , is to find the features of the pursuit that made you love the violin so much in other activities that allowed me to to move forward . So , for example , I ended ended up studying the human mind dog because I'm obsessed with humans and work . And so understanding what makes us feel things and how we make decisions and how we develop our attitudes and beliefs is an expression of that passion . And then in creating my podcast , a slight change of plans , I have the ability to go really deep with people . You can cut through all the pleasantries and you're talking before I can just add a room and say hi , Hillary Clinton . So apropos of nothing . What was the hardest moment of your life ? What was your biggest insecurity ? And you got right to the cat . Yeah , exactly . Exactly . And so I feel like that's in the through line through all these twists and turns , which is , you know , when you lose something , you learn , OK , I should never have attached myself to that physical thing , to that actual hobby or pursuit . I should figure out what it was about , that thing that really made me light up and then try to figure out if there are other things in life that I can tap into that same passion and love . That's very helpful , actually . I think a lot of people will take something from what you just said . I did . I feel like that's I'm kind of similar to you . I always thought dancing , which again , it did like moving my body in a certain way to music , of course , but it was the performance for me . I loved performing for people and I love making people smile . And I loved , like even goofy dances of making people laugh . Like , I I just loved the performance aspect of it because I liked that connection . And that made a lot of sense to me when you said that . It's so interesting and such a great point for people who are lost in change right now . You know , the lucky among us get to go through life just exclusively following their passion . Right . Like Taylor Swift will probably always write amazing songs and sing them . So he gets that from the rest of us . We'll be forced to pivot and turn . And , you know , you'd asked me earlier about were there any specific turning points ? And the most important thing that I did for myself during that period was to keep as open a mind as possible about what was out there in the world , because , again , up until this point , it was almost as though I had blinders on , like the music blinders . That was all that exists in the world . That was the only path I could see for myself in the future . And so I started reading a ton of books about that were not required in school , just like random stuff I saw talking to lots of people about what jobs they had and then I just got lucky . So the summer before my freshman year of college , I was helping my parents clean out their basement as a dutiful daughter does . I was supposed to be in China touring with my classmates , playing the violin , equally cool summer situation . And I stumbled upon a book on how the mind works . And I was just enraptured . Like I open this book and I'm reading about our ability to comprehend and speak language and how that's the result of this incredibly complex cognitive machinery . And at once I just felt completely and all of the human mind and all that it's capable of , you know , it's like , well , this is what's behind language , what's behind our ability to make really complex decisions , love like what's behind all of it . And I just , again , remember feeling that all and also thinking , you know , as humans , we're also hard on ourselves all the time . We're always self critiquing . If we only knew what our brains are doing every day , we would feel like we're crushing it every single day . We would feel amazing to understand the full depths of the range of our cognition and every in every moment all the stuff that's going on . And so that was such an inspiring moment for me . And that's when I realized , OK , I want to study this incredible organ that we have in . All it's capable of . I mean , you're like the definition of pivoting , and I want to get more into what you were just talking about . How did you get the opportunity to work at the White House ? How did that come about ? I used to use my mom's Juilliard cold walking method many times since that happened , but I love that method . The fearless just making connections . Yeah , it's what you're going to do . You never get you're not always going to have the silver platter put in front of you , so you just have to create it . So basically what is happening is at this point in my journey , I had studied cognitive science to study the mind for years . I did my PhD in this . I did my postdoc in there . So at this point , I spent almost 10 years prepping to become a professor , prepping to become an academic . And I remember there was this moment , Caitlin , where shit hit the fan . So I like sitting in the basement of an fMRI laboratory . So basically you put people into these brain scanners and you look at images of the brain and you try to examine their decision making and how that maps on to brain activity . It's all very complicated and it was very hard work . And I remember I was in about the windowless room because , of course , in the basement and this guy comes in and I was probably my fifth hour of scanning people's brains . It goes into the scanner and then moments I'm peering into this dude's brain and I'm thinking to myself , you know , given my personality , think the order of operations is a little bit off here . Like , I don't know if this guy has kids . I don't know what his favorite ice cream flavor is . I feel like I'm social for this . I just I want to be having conversations with human beings as the primary part of my job rather than doing this , like , very technical work . And so but at that point , I thought to our earlier conversation about these pivots and how they can create anxiety . I was thinking I just spent ten years of my life prepping to be an academic and now I'm going to jump ship like what what what possibly comes next . So I was looking into general management consultant positions , just completely leaving the field . And then fortunately for me , I had kept in touch with my undergrad advisor and she told me , Maya , I heard about this incredible work that's happening in the Obama White House right now where they're using insights from human behavior . So insights from our field to literally change people's lives . And this particular story involves what's called the national school lunch program . So basically , the government offers free or reduced price lunches to kids who can't afford lunch so that they can thrive at school every day . And what was tragic about this program is that despite the fact the government was offering this program to millions of kids , millions of kids were going hungry every day at school because they hadn't been signed up . And so they did a behavioral audit , let's call it , of the program to figure out what's underlying . So it's low participation rates . And they found it was two factors . One is that the form is extremely burdensome . So we are asking parents who are already strapped for time and resources to fill out a document that requires multiple referencing multiple tax documents that have to be mailed in exactly by the state . And if you enter in any information incorrectly , there could be a penalty associated with it . Right . Like we weren't creating the right environment for this form to be filled out . And too , there was a stigma associated with signing up kids for a benefits program . So I remember when I eventually did get to the White House , I talked to principals who said , you know , these parents in my community , they work really hard for a living and they don't like the idea of depending on the government to feed their kids . So what the government did is it leverage an insight from behavioral science around the power of defaults ? And basically what that says is if you change a program from an opt in program to an opt out program , it can dramatically increase participation rates . So they change the program . They tweak the policy so that now , just as the defaults , all eligible kids were enrolled in the school lunch program . And now parents only had to take a proactive step if they wanted to enroll their kids for the program . And as a result of that small tweak in the way the program was designed , 12 and a half million kids were now eating lunch at school every day . And , you know , it seems like such a small change , like , oh , it's just it's opt out versus opt in . But that's make or break for many kids . And so I was so emotionally moved by the story , I was like , that's what I want to be doing . I want to be taking insights about behavior and and the small tweaks that we know can have a profound impact on behavior and the way that people engage with our government and to apply them to help improve people's lives . That said , there was no job for behavioral scientist , so this is why I use my mom's method , I send a cold email to a former White House official basically saying like , hi , I'm Maya . I have no public policy experience . I publish nothing of significance . Please give you this job opportunity . And I even remember saying an email , good for you . I'm not cool enough to work with the likes of Obama , but if there's a state or local government opportunity , that'll be great . And thankfully for me , he ignored all the insecurities that were seeping out of this email and just wrote back and was like , thanks so much for your note , Maya . Here's the president's science advisors email . Go for it . I'll let him know that . I let him know that I sent you along . And so within three days , I was interviewing for a position that I was that didn't even exist . I was just trying to convince them to make it . And within a few months , I packed my bags in California and I moved to D.C. and I was working for the Obama White House . It was an extraordinary experience with a lot of good luck and chance involved . So . Well , I mean , yes , good luck and chance , but also fearlessness and you being you and everything that's happened in your life and who you are as a person to to get you to be able to do that , like you created your own role for yourself in the White House , because that's who you are . And you you're a passionate person . It's not OK . I'll give myself the stars had to have a life in some way in the sense , you know , Obama had to get re-elected for a second term . So all those things rolling into place . And I was very lucky to join an administration that was so focused on science and evidence then and saw a role for behavioral sciences to play . Yeah , I mean , I would take that role in my life . I could have you in my back pocket at all times . That would be great . I feel like I just there's so many I mean , all my listeners have some questions for you that I'm like , yeah , how do I change my fiance's mind on this ? Did you get to meet Milbon ? Oh , yes . Oh , my gosh . My husband gets annoyed because what I was breaking him into the Oval Office . I came out and I was like , oh , my God , Jimmy , that was the best day of my entire life . And he's like , you know , we got married this year , right ? And I was like , oh , right . Yes , of course . That was the best day . I was never to say he's an incredibly magnetic presence . And one thing that's so extraordinary about him is that . Despite having had so many I mean , it's unimaginable the level of stress , a president . Oh , my gosh . And yet he is so present with you . You are in the office with him . It's it's an extraordinary ability to compartmentalize , which I don't have , for example . So just a quick anecdote about Obama . So the night before , I was drafting his briefing document for the meeting . So I had this interesting vantage point of both leading the meeting because I was leading the team . So prepping the president for the meeting and then also being an attendee of the meeting , getting to see how it actually unfolded . And so I was pulling together all the bios of all of my teammates . And I got to my bio and I remember reading the last line and being like , oh , yeah , there's this part about me having been a violinist , like playing even include that . That's so weird because it's not even relevant to this public policy stuff . And then I was thinking , you the president's not even have time to read this anyway . So , like , who cares ? I'll just keep it in the door of the Oval Office opens and the first line out of the president's mouth is , I can't believe you studied the violin with my buddy Itzhak Perlman . He played at my inauguration with Yo-Yo Ma . And I was so touched in that moment . I like not only did he take the time to learn about me and all the other people in the room , but he made it a point to just make me feel so special and and that my past mattered as well as my present administration . So it was moments like that that just felt incredibly special . That's lot also like validates you as a violinist , too , that you probably . Right ? Yes , I was indeed . Exactly . Wow . That is actually incredible . You have some pretty great stories . OK , we're going to take a quick break . Two words to describe me this summer . Glad you asked . I would say waxed and relaxed and vexed , to be honest with you . 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I'm really hoping you can give me my listeners some solid little nuggets of thought provoking and thought changing information from your little smart brain that we can begin to chew on . So let's dive into what I've been waiting for and what you've touched on . But behavioral science and the idea kind of behind how you can change people or change someone's mind because who doesn't want to change somebody's mind on certain things , like I won't get into my list , but I'm sure Jason wants to change things , too . But let's just start with what exactly behavioral science is like . If you can explain to my listeners almost how we can use it to make better decisions . Yeah , definitely . Yeah . So behavioral science is the study of how our minds , what and how we make decisions , how we develop our attitudes and beliefs about the world , how we build motivation , like you said , how we can change other people's minds , how we can change our own minds . It's really this umbrella category that captures so many parts of the human experience . And the reason why I'm particularly fascinated by behavioral science is because it teaches us that some really surprising factors can influence our decisions . That really ought not to . So a really good example of this is we like to believe that when we go into a voting booth , we're going to vote for the person we'd most like to see elected into office . Right . That's just common sense . Of course , that would be the case . But research shows that the order in which the candidates names appear on the ballot has an outsized impact on voter behavior . In fact , in Texas , they found that when a candidate's name appeared first on the ballot , that candidate got a 10 percentage point boost in vote share relative to the candidate that was listed last year . And so when you understand these kinds of biases that exist , this is true . By the way , if you go to a restaurant , people are more likely to order the first item on the menu . Then we can design public programs or policies in ways that account for it . So in the case of the voting booth example , a lot of states will now randomize the order in which the candidates names in here across ballot so that there's true fairness across that system . And then there's other examples of other factors that can , again , have a huge impact on our behavior . So one that I really love has to do with social norms . There's there's research that was trying to get people to save more energy . Right . That's such an important thing right now , climate change , et cetera . And they tried all sorts of tactics to try to get people to use less energy . So it's like knocking on door is financial incentive canvassing , you name it . The only thing that worked was telling people when they were using more energy than their neighbors . So basically , like , you're shaving like a bog down the roads down the road's been using a lot less than you . I guess he's a little more environmentally friendly than you are . Seem like a little neighborhood rivalry . Exactly like everyone's comparing their lawn if you compare their energy usage . So that's another example of an insight that can have a profound impact on our behavior . And a final one that I love to talk , but there's so many sprinkle them in throughout the course of the conversation has to do with what's called identity priming . And identity priming refers to the fact that when we attach ourselves to a specific social identity or aspire to have a certain social identity , we will act in ways that align with that identity . So , for example , they find that if you were a voter at some point reminding you of your voter status , Caitlin , your voter can lead you to be more likely to vote in upcoming elections . Or the Red Cross ran a study where they reminded people of their status as previous donors to the charity and found that not only did they become repeat donors , but they increased the magnitude of their contributions because they're thinking to themselves like , oh , I'm a really charitable person . I have this really robust identity that's important . And it can definitely motivate prosocial behaviors like I just described , like donating to charity . But it's also something we have to be really careful not to use when it's not appropriate . So one project I worked on when I was in the Obama White House had to do with supporting formerly incarcerated individuals . So they were leaving prison . And we're acclimating back into civilian life , trying to get work , trying to reintegrate into their communities . And we were creating these re-entry guides to help them with every step along the way , like getting your driver's license and figuring out what higher education might look like , et cetera . And we scrubbed that booklet and realized that harmful identity labels are being used like former convicts , ex prisoners . And so instead , what we did is we use forward looking identities like community members and job seekers . And so you want to use these identity primes that align with people's aspirational status when they are , in fact , wanting to depart from their past . I'm so fascinated , but I like my brain is just processing , really , I'm like , wow , it's just so fascinating , like just simple little things that you have said throughout this whole podcast . I can ship something in such a big way . Absolutely , and I think when it comes to changing people's minds , this is one of the most elusive , coveted types of change . It's incredibly hard to get people to change their minds . One story that really inspired me was on my podcast called A Slight Change of Plans . And it's about this black jazz musician named Daryl Davis , who ended up convincing hundreds of people to leave white supremacy groups and indirectly led dozens of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan . And to me , that was an example of the fact that if you can get someone with the most vile , reprehensible views to change their mind , there's potentially a lot more hope when it comes to changing people's minds than we think . And what I learned from Darryl's story is that a lot of the techniques used were , in fact , corroborated by the science of actually effective tactics for changing people's minds . So there's this research in motivational interviewing which talks about the importance of increasing your question to statement ratio in a conversation . So rather than just continue to talk at the person and being like , this is what's right , this is how you should think , you ask them questions about how it is that they arrived at the news that they have evidence might change their mind . And I love that question because it presupposes that they ought to change their mind in the face of new evidence or other tactics that are really effective when it comes to changing people's minds is recruiting their own sense of agency in that conversation . So one thing I love that Darryl said is I don't think I change these Klan members minds . They change their minds . I just inspire them to do that . So you want to make sure that that change is coming from within and that you're arming them with the right way of thinking about things such that they arrive at this new conclusion ? Because we know from research that that's a much more durable way of engaging in change to arrive at that conclusion yourself . Wow , I , I know cognitive science has a lot to do with our habits and also our anxieties and obviously our opinion on things which can be ingrained by our parents , traditions , communities . So I had a lot of my listeners submit some situations that they're in with their partner , best friend or whoever , where they disagree on something or have anxiety tendencies over something or cannot change their minds . So we're hoping you can provide a little insight or a place for them to start , at least with how to begin to see eye to eye or make some changes . So one that I want to actually start with , just because it was such a main one that a lot of people actually said it was the vaccine , like there's a lot of couples out there that like are really split on , like , absolutely hell of getting it . No , I'm not touching that . That one before ? Absolutely . I'm so glad that your listeners are asking about this because , I mean , it's a life or death question , right ? I think the most important research coming out of my field in this space is called cultural cognition . And it refers to the fact that people don't decide what they believe in based purely on facts . Right . We like to believe , oh , the reason they haven't seen the light yet is because there's an information gap . Right . I just help them understand what the science says . If I just beat them over the head with all the data , that's going to move the needle . But we all know from our own experiences dealing with people , we disagree with that that's clearly an incomplete picture of what's going on . And that's because people arrive at their attitudes and beliefs , in large part based on their tribal identities , their group membership , their community membership and what values that community has . And so something like wearing a mask in my mind , I'm thinking it's just a damn piece of cloth . Wear a mask , it'll keep you safe . Why is this such a big deal ? But it's a great empathy builder . When you realize to someone who belongs to a community that doesn't believe in mass , that like wearing a mask can threaten their membership to a group that they feel is a sacred relationship in their lives . Right . Because if that group is on the road saying , like , we're anti mask and then they wear a mask , it's a public affront . And so when I learned more about the fact that we don't actually develop our attitudes , the beliefs just based on facts that are really influenced by these other social factors , it can help generate some solutions . Right . And let me just give for the listener who asks , I just want to give one small anecdote , a research study , actually , because I think it's a really poignant illustration of this point . And it actually has to do with watching football matches . So , yes , so there was this is research from the nineteen fifties , but basically there was video footage of controversial referee calls from a football match and they had people from opposing teams watch this footage , watch these controversial referee calls and judge those calls . And what they found is that people who are on opposing teams keep to very different conclusions about those calls . Right . They tended to think that the referee calls were unfair when they were against their own team and vice versa . And the reason why this is so compelling to me is it's not like these folks are watching , thinking , yeah , I'm biased . I can't see reality with any objectivity . Of course , that's not what's happening . They absolutely believe their visual systems are not betraying them . Right . And that what they're seeing is true . But it shows that when you feel this loyalty , when you feel this kind of group allegiance , it can absolutely cloud and color your objective assessments of situation . You can literally transform what you see . Right , like your perception of reality . And so that can be the case . Then , of course , people will have views about the vaccine that are not evidence based . They'll have views about mask wearing , that are not evidence based , et cetera . So there is some hope on how it is that we can change people's minds . One of my favorite bodies of work is called comes from this area of research called moral reframing . And it basically says whole people's values is fixed , don't threaten their entire worldview , their entire ideology . And instead of just reframe the message in ways that actually affirm their values rather than threaten them . So let's take the environment , for example , with liberals . You might focus on the fact that investing in climate change can help unlock opportunities for low income people , it can help bridge socioeconomic divides , et cetera . For conservatives , you might talk about the fact that investing in environmental reform and preservation is a way of displaying patriotism , that it is patriotic to preserve our natural resources and are in our nation's beauty and our history . And so in both cases , when the end goal is getting people to give a crap about climate change , but you are changing their values and their underlying principles and you're holding those as constant . And you're framing the message in a way that can align and actually help elevate their commitment to those values , speaking their language . That's that's good to know . I mean , with everything that could be even in an argument , in a relationship or a conversation with you , you have to kind of read your audience and know who you're talking to , really . I mean , when it comes to like , you know , a disagreement with a partner , you might in that moment say , look , I know we might disagree on this particular topic right now , but I do want to remind you , you do pride yourself on being willing to admit when you're wrong . So just a reminder , that is one of your values . Right . And I feel like that can help create a safe space for that person to say , OK , maybe I should have a slightly more open mind because you need a partner who actually does value that . You can't make it up . But in fact , if Jason Bird is willing to give . Is wrong , just reminding them that that's the value they hold near and dear to their hearts can be really assisted in those tense moments . That's such that I think you might have just changed my life and my relationship there , like you got , might be something like because that was a perfect example for Jason specifically . He is so good at admitting he's wrong in certain situations . And there are times where I'm like , how can you not admit he's wrong ? Like he knows he is ? Why is he being so defensive ? I mean , given that little friendly reminder and see where that goes , that's actually really smart . I've told you this before , and I'm going to tell you again , I did throw away that white shirt a couple of months ago because I got food all over it . I was eating dinner , scroll an Instagram boom . I was a mess . So is my white shirt . And I just threw it away . I just threw it out because I really didn't think it could be saved . And then months ago , I discovered toxically might revive and I was like , OK , really could have saved that poor shirt . Wished I had known about this sooner . But you know what ? At least I know now . Now I'm telling you , Occy , clean white revive laundry whitener and stain remover has 40 percent more whitening power than chlorine bleach preload without all the negatives of chlorine bleach . Pretty cool . 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Geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowners or renter's insurance along with your auto policy , which is a good thing too , because you have so much to do around your home . Go to Geico Dotcom , get a quote and see how much you could save . It's Geico easy . Visit Geico Dotcom today . That's Geico Dotcom . OK , and then Olivia Ray Wilson and a few others actually commented the same , I feel like a common question between couples is buying a house together first versus getting engaged first . So many of my friends have been annoyed at the male partner because they think the house comes first and the woman thinks , why would I get a house with someone who hasn't given me a ring yet ? I've seen this happen in so many relationships and things , but it happened with this listeners before they were married , too . And curious of your thoughts . Yeah , I mean , there's so many idiosyncrasies in relationships and the kind of sequence that makes sense . But I actually think the . The most helpful way to think about it is not that there's a right answer , but that there's a right answer for any given couple . For some people , they need they need to make that big investment in the house and test out how they navigate such a big life moment . It's such a big life experience and how they feel on the other side of making such a large emotional and financial commitment to one another to know if they have what it takes to to get that engagement . And then for other people , they see it as the reverse . Right . It's like I'm only willing to buy the house if I feel that we already have this deep , firm , long term commitment to one another in the form of an engagement . And so I think rather than searching for , quote , the objective right answer , it'd be great for this person to have a frank conversation with with her partner about . Given where they're both at emotionally when it comes to thinking about the relationship in the future , what are the things that matter most to them ? What are the kinds of signals that they need in order to launch forward along any of these paths and then see if they can find someone to be their . OK , that's good advice . Same person also says also if she can help me change my husband's mind on the fact that toilet paper belongs on the toilet paper holder and not the floor , that would be great . She's laughing , but she said but basically any advice on how to get them to actually understand where she's coming from and how these little things impact her without her seeming like she's just nagging all the time , which I feel the same way , like I'm particular about certain things . And oftentimes I feel like I come across as being first of all , the toilet paper does not belong on the floor . So she is actually absolutely right in this case and her partner gets it wrong . So there is the case . We want to look for the objective answer . The one thing that I the types of conversations I had with my husband is that even though we feel very similar , we are particular about different types of things . And actually , I think we just had this conversation recently where we were talking about a trip and what we wanted to do . It got cancelled because of the Delta variant . But whatever it's relevant , Bill , we were talking about ways that we wanted to prioritize on this trip . And I wanted to prioritize food because obviously Thai food and traveling and and my husband just didn't quite relate to this . And , you know , it's kind of like a light example , but it was one of those cases where I did feel like you need to understand , like in my mind , when we signed our marriage contract , like food was still no one . Like you were always in second place , like New York City . Deals are sacred in my mind , is actually really important for me to to draw parallels . It was like in the same way that you asked me to play squash when we go on this trip , because , like I said , we're we're getting those meals whenever possible . And again , it's a lighter example , but I think if she can find that parallel , that where he demands something of her that she might see as kind of trivial or small , that can be a nice antidote . Right ? It's like , OK , I do ask you to not have toilet paper on the floor and put on the holder . But don't forget , like , you really care about the bed being made or maybe he's not clean it . All right . I mean , this guy's putting toilet paper on the floor . I don't know if the bed's getting made like you really care about . I don't know , the fridge being full or some random thing that he carries something that means something to him , because I think sometimes we can judge one another for their preferences , like their specific preferences , when actually all they're expressing to you in that moment is that they care about something . And I feel like it's better for us to be when when the thing is not harmful , to be rather neutral about what the substance of that thing is and just know that it matters to them and then want to act on it . That's I've been having this conversation with my girlfriend because she needs sleep to function , she's a better mother . If she shows up as a better partner , she's just feels better overall . If she gets like a couple extra hours of sleep and her husband is an early riser . So he's up anyways and he's , you know , that's just him . And he makes her feel guilty for those extra hours that she's sleeping . And she's like , I don't think she understands my level of passion for those extra two hours . Like , it makes me a better person . It makes me a better wife . It makes me a better mom . And it's something that I need to like , like , you know , go through the day . And I said , ask him what's something that so small and simple in his life that he just like , you know , even if it's that forty five minutes where he gets to play a video game before , like he goes like something that's just so simple to him that's like mindless and that really makes him feel better and and ask if you'd ever make him feel bad about that . As you said , he is a complaisance . That's wonderful . That's exactly the expression of what I just described . And I think I think Caitlyn , like when you study behavioral science to it , is the greatest empathy builder because you start seeing mental states as just being universal mental state . So in many ways , my husband anxious , even if that thing doesn't make me anxious , I know what anxiety feels like . I know how threatening anxiety can feel . I have my own things that make me anxious . And it is so helpful , I think , to think through that lens rather than focusing on the nitty gritty or the specifics of that thing . Yeah , yeah , so true , so true , OK , this one was actually a very popular topic as well . People just want parenting advice . Gosh , I don't have kids yet , but even . Yeah , even just like like a few pieces of cognitive behavioral advice that you would give to parents in how to raise or teach them something like I'll like tell all the parents , you know , to raise the best kids to listen to clean up for themselves without them having to yell something the science back to that might help them . I don't know . So my favorite recent idea that I that I've been reading about when it comes to the science of child development and parenting has to do with helping kids keep open minds about things from the time that they're little and valuing having an open mind . And so one of the ideas that emerges from this is asking kids to do multiple drafts of things . And Adam Grant talks about this in his book , Think Again , that basically he's talking about the fact that when you have kids do one draft , the impulse is to be like , oh , my God , that's so amazing . Great job , well done . And the kids do that as the final state . They don't see that . There could have been many versions of this thing that were better or worse or different dimensions . And I love that because it shows kids that one isn't a perfect state for kids of any perfection , that it helps them rid themselves of that notion . But then , too , it allows them to see that there's many working models of the world . There's many versions of the world that can exist in the form of this painting or this letter that they're writing or the story that they're writing . And I think that can really breed a healthy mindset around future examples of willingness to change one's mind . I don't have kids yet , but when we do have them , one thing that we talked about wanting to do , and I think this is going to be the moment where my kid is like , oh , my God , my mom's a cognitive scientist . She's like , why do I have you decide to form ? But I would love to have a dinner tradition where we compel our child to say one thing that they did , one thing they didn't do well that day . Right . And create that space for them to admit that they're wrong about something . It can be something like I felt like I was a little bit mean to the kid that was sitting next to me in class , or it could be a misunderstanding , something or laboring under a false belief about something . It could be I , I don't think I tried my best . Like , I pretended I tried my best and it could be something like , yeah , I lied to my teacher . Like , whatever it is , I do believe that so much of the divisiveness that we see today stems from the fact that it's so tempting as humans just double down on our beliefs and ourselves . And in many ways it's because we tie our beliefs to our identities . Right . And so when we when we threaten what we believe in , it can be a global threat to our sense of self and our identity . And the more that we can kind of disentangle ourselves from any individual action or behavior , I think the more sturdy we can be in the face of change , in the face of new information that ought to lead us to update , et cetera . I don't know if that resonates with you , but I kind of wish as a kid , I had developed more pride being wrong about Odali . I well , you're saying that I was just not in my head . Being like that is such a good point . It creates a safe place to talk about it that you can make mistakes and how you're going to change them instead of kids . And I did this as a kid . You want to hide that and not let anyone know because you've disappointed ? Yeah , absolutely . And I think certainly in my marriage , like one thing that is so interesting , it's like , well , I'm a behavioral scientist , my husband's a software engineer , but I feel like he's a pseudo behavioral scientist because he lives with me . So he hears about all the research . But one thing we really pride ourselves on in our marriage is admitting that we're wrong and is a willingness to say , oh , my gosh , you're right , I'm really sorry about X or Y , and we naturally did this . It wasn't even intentional , but we really complement the other person when they admit that they're wrong . It's like we give them a huge pat on the back . And I think that that is that that that is an incentive . But it does create a safe space to know that either I'm right , which is great , or what I did . I'm wrong . I get this huge like that I weigh because it's like I'm so proud that you're willing to admit you're wrong . And so I think incentivizing that kind of behavior in a relationship can be really helpful . So true . Well , I feel like I just learned so much just in this moment . You should add life coach to the resume like you is you tell me about your podcast and where people can find that and listen to it , because I feel like I'm going to add that into the mix for myself . Oh , I'm so touched by that . So , yeah , this podcast has been just like Labor of Love situation . So in twenty twenty I was feeling really overwhelmed by the rapid pace of change that was happening around me . Oh , and by the way , I wanted you to know it was around that time that you went public about having had . A history of anxiety , and we're really forthcoming about that struggle , and I think there were so many of us in twenty twenty who were caught off guard with just how vulnerable we felt . And I hope you know how how reassuring it was to hear your story and your being so vulnerable and still open because that can have a really positive impact . Like I remember sharing that article with so many of my friends who were having insomnia or anxiety attacks or what have you . And you made a huge positive difference in the world . So I just want to separately to say thank you , Caitlin , for telling me that I think society relies on people with platforms like yours to really get these positive messages out there and these vulnerable messages out there . That's that's another thing that I like part of the performance thing . It's not always necessarily like song and dance performing . I like the platform aspect of it to relate to other human beings and create that connection of like we're all going through something or have our struggles . No matter if you see the highlight reel , like , it's always important for me to be extremely transparent and authentic and sometimes shared too much . But that's OK . But that's just who I am . And that it brings me comfort sometimes . Even if I'm crying on Instagram , people like , well , are you just looking for attention ? And I'm like , no , I'm looking for connection . Like , that's it's really different . Yeah . And I think it can reassure people when you're that candid about a mental health struggle that is so stigmatized . Yeah . So anyway , yeah , in twenty I was feeling really overwhelmed that I was noticing , of course , how worldwide people were feeling overwhelmed by the pace of change and the fact that it was such a salient moment of . A realization that we are really not in control , we have we carry around this illusion that we're in control , but man , 20 , 20 was a reminder that we are not . Yes . And then I put on my cognitive scientists behavioral science hat and I realized , you know , all the specifics of what 20 , 20 threw away may have been unprecedented . In many ways , our minds are built for change and so . Our ability to navigate change is not unprecedented , like we've done this rodeo so many times . And so , yes , there were novel challenges that we face globally , nationally on a personal level at last year . But this is not the first time that we as humans have had to deal with large change moments . And so , you know , when you look to the science , there's no textbook that says , OK , you're the middle of a horrible change . Go to page ninety two there . There's your answer . And so I realized that it was so important for me to marry storytelling , insights from people's real lives with the science around what we know about change and that when in marrying those two worlds . That's what I ended up building this idea for my podcast . A slight change of plans . It's an interview show where I interview people like Hillary Clinton and Tiffany Haddish and Kacey Musgraves and what I love Kacey Musgraves dreams , too . So you should start with that episode because reviews new music from her album on the other side . But I am completely obsessed with her . And she was incredibly warm and generous and shared so many amazing insights about her psychedelic trips and the creative process anyway . This is total joy . But anyway , so I have these interviews of folks and I'm basically mining their stories for insights that can help us as listeners think differently about change in our lives . And I've learned it's been such a humbling process , Caitlin , because as someone who studies change for a living , I have learned so much from my guess about change that I never would have thought about otherwise . And it's changing the way that I live now . And I feel like that's such an empowering process to to learn so much from people through this experience . So I love the show . I'm kind of obsessed with it . That is I mean , yeah , I feel like everything you do , you put your heart and soul into . And I'm sure you do that with the podcast , too , especially if you love people and you are obsessed with connections with people . A podcast is definitely the right place for you to be having these conversations . So I can't wait . Is it on like basically anywhere you find podcasts ? Yes . So Apple , Spotify , I heart radio where I'm amazing . I'm definitely I'm actually going to put that on right now because I have the rest of the day off , which is very weird in this world . I'm like , don't know what to do with myself . So now I'm going to I'm literally just going to do that . And I have a peloton bike and I love to hear . And I had to I'm going to like , what is your social media also ? Oh , yes . So it's the show name . So it's our Instagram is a slight change and Twitter is slight change . OK , I'm resisting the personal resisting because I just don't know if I , if I if I have if you can use it strictly for your work and for the podcast , that's enough . Like , it's it's a lot . It's a lot . Think it's a healthy choice . OK , well I'm going to go follow that and listen to the podcast . And I'm just it was such a pleasure talking to you and I could have talked to you for hours and hours more because you were the most fascinating . And , you know , you are you're fascinating . Yet you're just so easy to talk to . You're just a very down to earth humble person and who is just like also a genius . That's so nice of you to say , Caitlyn . And I would absolutely love to keep in touch . So , yes , we will make sure of it . I will make sure of it . Good luck with this season . I'm Kate Lumbroso , I'll see you next Tuesday . Thanks for listening to Off the Line with Caitlin Bristo . Get new episodes every Tuesday exclusively on podcast One Dotcom , the podcast , one app and subscribe on Apple podcast . Hey , do you own or rent your own home ? I know you do , and I bet it can be hard work . And I'm here to tell you what's easy bundling policies with Geico . Geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowners or renter's insurance along with your auto policy , which is a good thing , too , because you have so much to do around your home . Go to Geico Dotcom , get a quote and see how much you could save its Geico easy . Is it Geico Dotcom today ? That's Geico Dotcom .
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