Transcript
This festive season. Have you been nice or naughty? Why wouldn't they be nice? Reaches back and they're coming after us, good. He's bigger. Bader. I don't hats off. And he doesn't get soft. We're going to need more guns. Each year, the new season, get to it. Watch now only on Prime Video. And I would say goodnight to God and Jesus out loud every night. And if I felt like I didn't say it right, I would repeat it within me already was this desire to do things just right every single time. So this church just exacerbated all of those feelings and then attached religion to it, attached God to it, attached life or death. So I was almost a perfect candidate for a cult. This is was I in a cult? I'm your host, Liz. I accuse me and I'm the other one. Tyler. So now the guests on our show tell us about their cult experiences in many different ways. Sometimes are like I was in a f**king cult, guys. Other times they say, Holy s**t, I was in a cult. Sometimes it's way within a cult, and sometimes they say, I heard your show, and now I'm just realizing I was in a cult and some, well, they still don't know. I'm looking at you, Tom Cruise. I'm always looking at you. The realization process can be a gradual one. And many would rather just leave the past in the past. Understandably, although we have been told by all of our guests how healing and empowering it is to share their stories, but sometimes without knowledge of what a cult is or how coercion exactly works. Many people will leave cults or cult like environments not realizing what exactly happened, which is one of the reasons we created this show. And the incoming mail we get from people wanting to tell their story is truly humbling, including today's guests who came to us in 2021, if you can believe it. Shortly after we released our first episodes, she wrote us an email. I just came across your podcast and listened to both episodes and felt compelled to contact you about my own experience of being in a cult. And here she is talking to us today. Welcome to the show, Diane. You know what? I'm just going to let her introduce herself. She. My name is Donnelly Antigua, and I am a poet and educator. And I was in a cult at one point, the anelli wrote a beautiful book of poetry about her experience growing up in what she now describes as a cult. Do not worry, you will get to hear some of her poetry later. My first book, Ugly Music, was published in May of 2019. From Yes, Yes, books and and those pages is my story. It's a way for me to revisit that trauma. But within the safety of creating, I've created that space for myself to investigate my past, but also make something out of it. Ugly Music actually won a Whiting Award, which are given annually to 10 emerging writers and fiction, nonfiction, poetry and drama, which came with a $50000 reward. The take that you damn called. My earliest childhood memory is pretty dark, but I mean, I'll go there, I'll go there, why not? And this memory, my mother is holding me in her arms and we're running down a hallway. I'm wearing a pink lace dress and my dad is chasing us with about. Obviously, you know, you would want your first childhood memory to be something happy. And mine wasn't. Yeah. So my parents met here in the United States. They're both from the Dominican Republic. I was born in Massachusetts and I am the youngest of four. We would do a lot of crazy things and we were younger. I don't know how my mother dealt with us. I can't tell you much about what my dad was like. What I've been told is that he was an alcoholic. He gambled. He was abusive and unfaithful to my mother. Very many times. They got a divorce when I was two or three years old and a new man came into my mother's life in the apocalypse. He was a radio preacher and my mother would call in prayer requests. And although he was a man of God, he was more just a wolf in sheep's clothing. He was an abusive man. He molested me. He also was very unfaithful to my mother many times. So we moved from one traumatic event to another traumatic event. On their wedding day, he was yelling at her and I didn't want her to get married to him. I was a very intuitive child. I just sensed things. I was very emotional as well. My mother has this picture of me, and I was crying in front of the monopoly board because my brother and my sister told me that I couldn't play because the board game said ages eight and up and I was only seven. And I got very upset. Yeah, I've I've been the same ever since, you know, just always on the verge of tears. I grew up in Haverhill, Massachusetts. I'm quite partial to the state of Massachusetts, Liz. In fact, as I researched this particular section, I did so while in Massachusetts. How very matter of your time I was there visiting my in-laws and after doing my research on Havel, I regaled them with so many facts from Havel. But they did make fun of me because I referred to it as Haverhill, when it should be said as Havel, but it spelled AVR htl. All right, Tyler, the suspense is killing us. What are these amazing Haverhill facts? OK. OK. Well, for one half is the home of artist Rob Montana, who fashioned his famed Archie comics on his time spent in Half World High School. I'm sure that's too nerdy for you, Liz. But wait, what? That's actually really cool. Did you know that I was obsessed with those comics growing up? I love me some Betty and Veronica, even though they're very sexist. The Riverdale is really Haverhill, Havel, Haverhill. It is less. Apparently it is. It is also the home to the Museum of Printing No. Latino, which contains hundreds of antique printing, typesetting and finding machine binding machines. Tyler. Liz. They have a wall of typewriters, white wall of typewriters. There's an entire wall. How about we get back to Dan Ali, Dan Ali? Tell us about your family. My family was always religious, so we were always visiting different churches. There was this one day that my stepfather found a business card at a local community college and it was for the church at Haverhill, and that was the beginning of of everything. The church called themselves the body of Christ. The first time we went, it was on a Sunday. I remember that everyone was so welcoming and wanting to, you know, say hi to us. The church service was extremely long. It was like two and a half hours. But after the service, there was a dinner. I mean, there was chicken pot pie, chicken wings or like a meatloaf with lots of veggies and sides. And there was dessert. There was endless soda there, welcoming spirit, the food, what felt like stability, but felt like safety. What felt like family. All of those things that's seemed foreign to me or had seemed unattainable considering how I grew up. And it was right there just waiting for me to grab it. So we had church three times a week, Wednesday nights, Friday nights and Sunday mornings with a Sunday dinner afterward. And then sometimes Sunday nights, we would have either a fellowship or a Bible study at someone's house. The body of Christ was founded by a man called brother William Sorters in 1914. I believe, I think I wrote of them somewhere. Don't worry, Diane Alley. We gotcha. Yep. William Sanders, who was acknowledged as the founder of the Gospel Assembly Church's movement, was born in 1879 in Lewisville, Kentucky. Lovell, Tyler, you just have a solid a three Long Island and be like, I'm from a little country. All I know less. Louisville, the lovely town Souder led a relatively obscure life until one day in 1911 while toiling as a fisherman on his boat in Illinois. Illinois' he heard a voice repeatedly saying, I want you to do something. Finally, he screamed up to the heavens and said, Lord, what is it you want me to do? Then a voice like a clap of thunder, said Song, I want you to preach my gospel. Those supporters took this as an omen, and the young man began studying his Bible night and day, to which God kept giving him revelation after revelation. Sort of like a spam caller. Hi, ma'am, I thought I'd try again in case the first 72 times you heard about me was an accident. Oh, by the way, ma'am, I'm from Louisville. I don't know why we're picking on Louisville. It's a great city. We love you, Kentucky. You got the derby. You know, they got the derby. So William Sanders, let's call him Bill, shall we? Bill kept receiving revelations and decided to start his own church in Anna, Illinois, in 1916, shortly after he set up a larger church in his hometown of where Tyler Louisville and that church continued to grow. Soon, pastors from all over the country are coming to learn his beliefs, studying his preaching style, and they take what they learned back to their community f**kers setting up franchises. Pastor Bill would spew forth thousands of wild prophecies. A few were correct, but most of them were way off. Kind of like the jokes on this show. Bill from Louisville died on November 20th, 1952, at the age of 73, and at the time of his death, it is estimated that the membership of his religion was as high as 75000 believers in 300 churches, with various names such as the School of Prophets, the latter rain movement and the body of Christ, which is what dan-ali was part of. So the main thing that they taught was a message of perfection. The idea was that we could be without sin. We were encouraged to live a life that was exemplary. Back then, I didn't realize how it affected me or to the extent that it affected me. But seeing it now, I I can tell how obsessive I got about being perfect and about trying to live a life without sin. Someone like me, I couldn't just be any regular member of the church within me already was this desire to do things just right every single time. I remember going to bed most nights while listening to a tape of church music. And the idea was that I didn't want to have an impure thought while I slept. He listened to church music because they weren't allowed to listen to secular music. I remember the last CD that I ever bought was the Millennium CD Backstreet Boys. I was completely obsessed with, especially A.J., because he was a bad boy. You know, in and out of rehab. Yes, a music reference. But for me, this time now, you know, if you listen to this podcast, do you know that I have an affinity for music? But I do have to say this whole era of boy bands pretty much passed me by. Bye bye bye. Bye bye. I saw Backstreet Boys Tyler at the Beach 96 Pepsi Summer Bash Concerts. You know what that means? No, no. Well, my Chicago listeners know exactly what I'm talking about, though they all five of them come out black tank tops. They're coming out to genuine my pony. You know, that song is like riding a pony, and they're slow motion, like riding these invisible horses with lassos above their head. Like gyrating to the song, everybody was screaming. It's pretty epic. Yeah, that would actually send me straight into a cult. But music wasn't the only thing that wasn't allowed for Ali at the body of Christ. There were a lot of living standards clothing standards. The women could wear skirts only, and the skirts had to be to the shinbone, and the shirts had to be past the elbow and no makeup, no piercings. The women were not allowed to cut their hair at all like it had to be kept very long. Mary didn't celebrate Christmas because we were taught that Christmas wasn't really Jesus's birthday. We were told that the holiday itself was built around pagan holidays. There is actually some truth to this. Allow me to regale you or you with the tale of Saturnalia. Let's go back to the time of ancient Rome each December, the Romans wishing to honor their agricultural gods Saturn all hell, Saturn would have a debaucherous, chaos filled festival. The holiday began near the winter solstice of December 17th and would last a week. But on the first day of Saturnalia, oh oh boy, they would throw a massive feast in the middle of the town square. Public drunkenness, gambling, brightly colored togas and open sex were not just allowed but encouraged. Frat boys across the country are taking notes. The rest of the week was a time of overeating and overindulgence. Businesses and schools were closed and you were meant to spend time with your families where you would light candles and decorate your home with greenery. Hmm. And sounds familiar. And on the final day, which was typically on or near December 25th. Gifts were exchanged, in particular wax figurines or combs or writing tablets or socks. I'm sure somebody was getting socks eventually in the third century. Christmas was formally decided by the Catholic Church to occur on one day the 25th of December, and instead of honoring the gods Saturn, we now give praise to Baby Jesus and encouraged drunkenness downgraded from the town square to strictly the dinner table. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp, you know, on this podcast, we've been known to make a few jokes here and there, here and there. Humor can be healing. It's how we and our guests deal with trauma. But an even healthier way to deal with trauma is with an actual licensed therapist. Therapy has helped many of our guests to take back their power, recognize the patterns they continue to repeat in their lives and find their voice again. But therapy isn't just for those who are in a cult. If you need help learning good coping skills or figuring out how to deal with difficult co-workers or podcast hosts, what? Oh, not you? Another podcast host. So if you, dear listener are thinking of starting therapy, it's never been easier than with better help. You simply fill out a brief questionnaire and get matched to a licensed therapist, and it's entirely online, convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Look, if it wasn't for therapy, I never would have learned the term mommy issues. She's not listening. Tyler, Tyler and I have both benefited from seeing therapists, and we encourage you guys to try to with better help discover your potential with better help. Visit better rt.com slash anti-cult today to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better. Help HDL com slash in a cult. So Dion Ali couldn't listen to music, couldn't celebrate Christmas or Saturnalia, but there were other odd rules that were presented. There was an emphasis on everyone being family, so we called each other brother and sister. I was sister Nelly for 10 years of my life. Men and women were not allowed to hug each other unless they were family. However, the pastor of the church would still hug us young girls. It was as if the rules didn't apply to him. He was above everyone else. He acted that way. He had that leather chair on the platform for himself. If we had spaghetti for Sunday dinner, I remember him eating lobster while all of us made spaghetti. We all drank out of red solo cups and he drank out of a glass cup. So church wasn't about God at all. It just became about this man. It felt like an order to get through to God. You had to go through the pastor. I was his favorite and a lot of ways. I was the leader of the girl singing group and I was a straight-A student at school. I was respectful. I was devout. I would read my Bible every day. I was put up on a pedestal as this example of, you know what our young people should be like. The pastor had a daughter himself, and she left the church, but I fulfilled a pseudo daughter role for him and a lot of ways. He often introduced me to people as his daughter. Thinking about it now, like how could a child who had experienced trauma with two former father figures in her life not be drawn in by that? So it was the perfect way to to keep me close. And as you can imagine, this pastor was a real peach. I was able to find some things from church like I could. I don't know if you can hear this, but we need God in our lives. This world is. And it's getting more. I mean, we've heard about that all these other of the objective to this book that they're teaching a kindergarten, basically that we can't beat that a man and a man and that house together and the man got arrested and he objected to them finishing missile that a man and a man, he said, I'm happy. And they arrested him. But we we want a lesson to you yet to this book that promotes homosexuality. And, you know, the Bible said that the Lincoln Tunnel returned to hell and all nations and present. We're so thankful we have a school here aren't too concerned to. The right thing, not exposing them, one thing now is easier. So the church had a school for the kids. It took place mainly in one room. The teachers and the school weren't paid. They were volunteers from the church who may have in the past had some experience with whatever subject they were teaching, or maybe they didn't know anything in regards to that subject. The curriculum we used was a back up book, and it was from Pensacola, Florida. They have a Christian school down there. A Baca is a combination of Arlen and Becca Horton, two Christian teachers who created their own curriculum in 1972 because of a quote idea that came from God seems to be a recurring theme, doesn't it? And what are all these ideas that come from God? Oh, God told me that I can be an a*****e. Like, what the f**k? I started a backup books today. It's a multi-million dollar company that generates more than a thousand educational resources quote from a Christian perspective that these books are still used today. Absolutely, they are. In fact, the state of Florida and you can look this up is trying to make them more common. They're trying to put them into more schools. But of course, these books are often very thin on the scholarly side, meaning they just flat out get it wrong or at least skewed toward their American exceptionalism. Christian favor. For example, in many of the children's textbooks, there are illustrations of men and dinosaurs together, despite there being a 65 million year gap between them. Correct. And the texts tend to focus on white men, ignore women and sometimes insult people from Africa, Asia and Latin America. You don't say, yeah, the social studies books downplay the horrors of slavery, and it says quote to help them endure the difficulties of slavery, God gave Christian slaves the ability to combine the African heritage of song with the dignity of Christian praise. Well, isn't that nice of God and get a lot of this comedy, and it's quite pathetic section on the civil rights movement. The book claims that quote most black and white southerners have long live together in harmony. Mm hmm. Yep. Nothing like rewriting America's darkest historical moments. And this is just the tip of the iceberg on these books and their skewed, thinly veiled racist teachings. I'm not really seeing a veil here at all, Tyler. And you guys reminder the anelli is Dominican, but nonetheless she would pore through these books at her small basement school. And when I was ready to take my test or quiz, I would just let one of the teachers know, and they would make a copy for me or when I got older, I would make the copy myself. I would take the test. I would grade the test. I would then put the grade and the grade book and then move on to the next unit. And there were a lot of young people who started right in kindergarten and went all the way through. I started in sixth grade. The most students that they had in the school K through 12 was 15 students. That was just the year that I entered the school. And you know, every year after that, someone may have graduated or their family left the church, or so it just dwindled down. But the best part about high school is the friends you make, right? I mean, you all journey together through those four formidable years and you get to walk across the stage and say, We did it. I was the only one in my graduating class, so weird and so f**ked. At school, we would pledge allegiance to the Bible first. We would have to hold it in our in our palms and our hands, and it would go already being used. Speculation leads you to the Bible and the truth for which it stands. I will make it a lamp onto my feet, not into my palm heights. When it's in my heart that I might not say that, I get scoffed and then we would have my. So the church believed and encouraged the speaking of other tongues. The Bible is full of scriptures that reference speaking in tongues. One of the more cited is Acts two four, which says Quote and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance. Essentially, the Holy Ghost enters your body and takes over your tongue, giving you the miraculous ability to speak in a human language that no one has ever learned. Or if you are possessed by a demon who causes you to speak in the language of the demon or that, of course. I mean, to me, Liz, it just sounds a lot like gibberish. Here is an example of someone praising Jesus via the gift of the tongue. Leg of arrows goes against the medical Kavos tradition. Credit logo is the Taliban gave us. So does cut by zip code shutout. Recap on the radio are by Rochelle Rudiger. Bahash does her leg us to cut the ashes. It is also known as Los Olalia and according to expert Paul de Lacey, linguist at Rutgers University, Los Olalia is quote spontaneous, sustained human speech that has no complex meaning the he finds that gloss olalia is spoken in many countries by people from many different religions. In fact, some atheists speak it for relaxation, and it is used by some actors in theatrical preparation exercises. It is also spoken by Liz after she's had a bottle of wine. I ain't letting my brother in. No, by all real plays like a little room all over linguine. Nerdy English quite enough. Thank you. Praise Cabernet and mean we wouldn't know when you would get the gift of the Holy Ghost. I would just come to you. But back then. Speaking in tongues was like I could, slipping in and out of speaking in tongues and English as if I was weaving in and out of English and Spanish. It was a language between me and God, and I often felt comforted by that. And this makes sense because apparently Glass Olalia can put the speaker in a trance like state. Much like meditation, in fact, a 1979 American Psychological Association study found that those who perform glass olalia put themselves in a quote hyper aroused trance and found those who practiced it had lower rates of depression. And now yoga teachers across the country are taking notes. Yeah, the worshipping would get very intense. People would fall out and the spirit onto the floor. And if you were a woman and you fell out and the spirit one of the sisters in the church would come with what we called a lampkin kind of sounds like napkin, but for your lap? And it was this honestly like a scraggly piece of cloth, it was burgundy, and it was just enough fabric to cover your legs so that she would still stay modest. Was I gonna call it Lipkins coming soon? We also used napkins in church while we were sitting so that if our skirt was writing up and you could see our knees, you would put the Lampkin over that again to maintain that modesty. The idea was that remaining covered was also keeping her brothers in mind as to not tempt them. So if you if you loved your brother, if you wanted to protect him, you would cover your legs. And it's when I think about it, it was like, I don't what is what is so sexy about a knee and kneecap? And they're not pretty Lipkins fighting knee objectification, one scraggly cloth at a time. Remember when we told you that dan-ali was a poet? I feel like poetry has really helped me work through what happened to me, work through the traumas of my early life with my father, then with my stepfather, and then with the church. It's been like a trinity of daddy issues that I've had to deal with. And poetry was the way for me to investigate and tell my story. I started writing in journals when I was nine years old, and I continued writing well into being a teenager and now and adulthood since I was nine. I have filled over 36 diaries and I now use them to write poems. All right. Ode to a Lampkin. Modesty and fabric form covering my knees when I sat down covering the knobs of my openness. The accidental flesh during the sermon about the Proverbs woman, her price are above rubies, covering my spirit when I fell from my trembling. The sisters of the church rushing to place the cotton square on my legs in case I quivered and prayers in case a man of God gaze upon my shins and imagine the rest. Covering me from the AC, those August, Sunday's barely enough warmth to call blanket too rough to call comfort, but I wrapped the faded burgundy around my shoulders and felt blessed. Twelve years later, I sit in Washington Square Park, pull my dress to mid-thigh, let the Sun touch where Lipkins used to. I watched the men pass, hoping they look at my bare skin like miracle. There are so many legs to choose from. I stare at their legs to the women. I imagine, Lipkins, over their naked bodies, not enough cloth to leave them unknown. And I peel the coroner's lampkin after Larkin. And dear God, it's the holiest thought I've had today. I have a few more that I thought would be good to read and we will get there. But first, let's talk about the hierarchy in her church. There was the pastor and then there were several other ministers and that could range from maybe like three or four at times. My stepdad was a minister there. Women were not allowed to be ministers, but women could have other roles in the church that were of importance, like being a singer or maybe being a bandleader. Something along those lines. On Thursdays at school, the girls would have sewing cla*s. And during this time, the boys in the school would go outside and play basketball. I was never into sports, but I definitely was not into sewing. It gave me a lot of anxiety because again, here was another moment that I had to be perfect and I felt, Well, I got to get this right. If I'm going to be a good preacher's wife, I better know how to sew. I was going to be a preacher's wife because I was so devout. Preparation for marriage is a common theme amongst certain cults. Oh boy. So there was a dating order. At 16, you are allowed to date. However, there were some roles. The pastor had to approve of the person you were dating and you had to continue counsel with him throughout your relationship. There was chaperone dating and you weren't allowed to touch each other other than a handshake. You had to keep six inches between you at all times. So no holding hands or hugging or kissing. I thought my first kiss was going to be on my wedding day, and I was holding on to that and saving it. And we didn't have a lot of eligible young men in our church. There were maybe two or three other boys to choose from. And at 15, I ended up liking one of those boys. He wasn't on the same spiritual level as I was. So when I asked the pastor if we could date, he said no, because this young man was not preacher material. And I was going to be a preacher's wife. And if you tell, you know, a teenage girl that she can't date a boy, like, what is she going to do? She's going to date the boy anyway. So. So we snuck around a lot. I got kissed even though I thought I was going to be saving my first kiss for my wedding day. It happened it was raining outside and the boy was leaning up against a red pickup truck, kind of like a Taylor Swift song, and it was like raining and there were like raindrops all over his face and he leaned in and he kissed me. And I remember being kind of angry at him and I told him, you know, you know, I was saving that for my wedding day, like, why did you kiss me? And he told me, Because I'm going to marry you. I was like, OK, all right. It's the fall of 2017 and Rancho Tehama, California, a man and his wife are driving to a doctor's appointment when another car crashes into them, sending them flying off the road. Disoriented, they stumble out of the car, only to hear dozens of gunshots whizzing past them. This is just a chapter of a much larger nightmare unraveling in their small town. The podcast This Is Actually Happening presents a special limited series called Point Blank, shedding light on the Forgotten Spree killings of Rancho Tehama, where a lone gunman devastated a small town attacking eight different locations in the span of only 25 minutes. Overshadowed by the Las Vegas shooting that dominated the headlines just weeks earlier, this small community quickly faded from view and was left alone to pick up the pieces. The series follows five stories of people connected to the incident from a father that drew the gunman away from the local school to the sister of the shooter. These are riveting stories that will stick with you long after you listen. I don't know if you guys have listened to this podcast ever, but the show is so well done. The stories are always engaging and unusual and eerie in a way that I just love, and I love the format. You know, some podcasts simply have the host regaling the audience with a written story, but this is actually happening is a true documentary style show with first-person accounts of people that were actually there. This is actually happening. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can listen. Add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So Dan Ali had been kissed by a boy who also told her he was going to marry her. It's kind of like your first kiss, right, Liz? I continued to sneak around with this boy and we were making out in his car. Yeah, my brother must have followed me and found me. Then my brother told the pastor. And that was it. Everything that I had worked for over the past few years in the church. It was as if that didn't matter anymore. And unsurprisingly, there were repercussions. I wasn't allowed to sing in church anymore. I wasn't allowed to play my flute. It was as if I was being shunned. I felt like my entire world was crumbling. I would spend days crying. I was just so depressed and anxious, and getting help for mental illness wasn't something that people talked about. The idea of seeing a therapist or taking medication was stigmatized. Numerous studies have shown that perfectionism is a major risk factor for anxiety and depression. But Denali was in a controlled environment, of course, where the leader acted as the authority on all things. And according to him, one should pray and read their Bible and counsel with the pastor. Those things would be what you needed to help with your mental illness. And my journals were the only place where I could talk about the things that were bothering me, the things that I wasn't allowed to say out loud. But still, as helpful as the journals could be, that wasn't enough. So my body, my body, started to deteriorate in a way. I woke up one morning with pain in my neck and shoulders and just a headache that wouldn't go away. I went to countless doctors, they did MRI's X-rays, and everything was inconclusive. Now I know that what was happening to me was I was just harboring all of that trauma in my body. And the only way that I could express it was through the pain, the actual physical pain that my that those receptors sent. That was my cry for help. It hasn't gone away so far. Half of my life, I have experienced body pain. But at the same time, it's not that unique like women who have experienced, let's say, sexual abuse in their past. A lot of them end up complaining of chronic body pain later on in their lives. And that's me. Yeah. And here is a poem Donnelly wrote about this experience chronically. It started when I was 16. After instead of falling in love with Jesus, I fell in love with the boy a little bit of God's wrath. Now living in my right shoulder, right hip, right side of my newly kissed neck. I knew he was jealous. God, not the boy. Maybe because instead of reading a chapter in Proverbs Before Bed, I spoke to the boy on the phone, whispering my body cramped in the dark corner of the living room. My family are already asleep. I told the boy I loved him, like a breathy hallelujah, like the hush of the MRI machine taking me into its mouth or the x rays or my silent bending over and the blue paper gown little a*s out in front of the doctor as he checked my spine. And the boy touched my spine, too, as he reached under my shirt, unhooked my padded bra. This was before the diagnosis. The word itself sounding like a disease diagnosis, how it shares the first three letters of my name. Diagnosis. If I could take my tiny shovel hand, carve out the synopsis from my head, shoulders, knees and toes. Oh bless. Less less. It is meaningless how invisible the body and pain when God is a house, I can't leave, when God is a house, I can't leave. What a great line. The only state of the church and school and graduated a year early. Body of Christ Haverhill, class of one. And because our school wasn't accredited, I didn't really have many options for myself, so I just went to a community college. And that's when I started to learn things that I had never been exposed to before I learned about feminism, I learned about evolution. I was given the key finally to unlock like the possibilities in my life that had been taken away from me. They were right there and they were in those books. Different books, of course, than the ones normalising the KKK. And while at this college, she discovered that actually it was the same community college that my stepfather found the business card in full circle. And I slowly started to try new things. I remember when I put on my first pair of jeans after a decade of never wearing them. I did it because of a job and I couldn't wear a skirt, so I had to wear pants and it was kind of amazing. I felt like The Little Mermaid did, when you know, she sees her two legs for the first time. It was so strange for me to see my figure like that. I was still learning everything. I took my time experimenting with things. I did it slowly. You guys have to remember Denali was shunned from the little things in life that many of us take for granted makeup. Oh yeah, makeup. Yeah. So I experimented with makeup and it was the early 2000s, so I would match whatever I was wearing with my eyeshadow. And I felt like, Oh, I can finally express myself this way, and it just fed my creative soul. Just seeing the colors on my face and wearing all of the different types of jewelry and painting my nails, I was having a hard time talking about things like popular culture that I didn't know anything about, or if they mentioned a song and you know, Oh, have you heard that song? That's a no, and they would be so surprised. I remember when I found out that Justin Timberlake had gone solo, I was like, What the f**k happened? Like while I was in this cult like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a minute. I started to listen to different types of music, a lot of it was just punk stuff like The all-American Rejects You, My Dirty Little Secret and boys like girls. It is like to get out of here. I was just beating that like rebellious ness that I had never gotten to revel in. When I was a senior in college, it was the first time I had ever danced in a club with a boy, and I asked my friend at the time, You know, am I a slut? Because I danced with this boy? And he said, no, everybody else was dancing just like you or you're fine. And they were such small rebellions, they were so tame. But to me, they felt like they felt so wild. It felt like a wild child all of a sudden. And wow, that felt amazing. But just because she went off to college doesn't mean her past is quite behind her. So there was some tension between me and my family. Our relationship? For a while, they were trying to get me to come back to church, and I would go sometimes, but it wasn't for me anymore. I was changing a little bit more and more every day. Who I was was becoming to look very different from who I had been. And that was hard for my family. So it was a slow fade with Jesus. It didn't happen overnight, Dean Ali graduated from the community college, and this time there was at least one other person who joined her. She continued on to get her bachelor's degree from UMass Lowell, which incidentally, Liz has a pretty incredible quilt museum, an entire wall of quilts, an entire wall. I'm sure that it made it very difficult for her to leave law, Tyler. But she does, you guys. And after her B.A. Denali moves to the Big Apple to think that I, a little kid from Haverhill, was now in New York City, where she enrolled in NYU and got a master's of fine art in poetry. Not only was I able to get a degree, but a book was born out of that. That book again, ugly music. All right. This is the last one I've got for you. Praise to the boys. On Thursdays, the boys played basketball and the church parking lot, while sister Priscilla taught the girls to sew on buttons, stitch hems, iron collars. She leaned her rigid body to guide my hands at the machine. Her cabbage breath lingering as she walked to the next girl, God lingered, too. God watched my hands feed the needle. Blue cloth bits at a time. He watched my mouth knew where I'd put it next on the end of a thread before pulling it through the eye. Sometimes I'd imagine having my uniform above my knee. Sometimes I'd fake a migraine so I could watch from the attic. The boys with sleeves to their elbows, maybe just down to a T-shirt. I'd watch their bodies sweat and ways I'd only seen at the altar to a song. I was singing my voice inducing a twitch of limbs, a wag of tongue and something we weren't meant to understand. A God. Understood. He watched one of those boys sell drugs at gunpoint. Watched one marry my sister. Then another kiss a baby's toes. Three years later, I touch the sweat of one in the back seat of a Dodge RAM van windows tinted skirt pulled up to my waist. God saw the boy like a silent prayer, saw my back curves and exalt. All right. That's all I got. Thank you, Diane Lee, for your beautiful words and speaking them in a language that we can understand. It's been over a decade since I left that church and to think of who I am now. It's like it's completely unrecognizable. I don't really know what I believe in now. I don't know if I believe in God. I believe in the power of language. That, to me is is my new religion of sorts. Right now, I'm just trying to live and, yeah, I'm just trying to cultivate some joy in my life. Finally. Thank you, Ali, for your wonderful story. Be sure to check out our book Guys Ugly Music and as a fun bonus, we will send an autographed copy of this book to random members of our Patreon who sign up in the next two weeks. In L.A. now lives in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Portsmouth, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Here you go, where she is the town's official poet laureate, Portsmouth, home of rock star Ronnie James Dio and the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. And I've been there lives. Do they have a wall of ships, Tyler? I know what you're doing, Liz, you're mocking me. I would love to see what a wall of ships like. You're I'm being mocked. It's fine. I understand. Is it cool? How many? How many ships not going to indulge? You don't. You're not worthy. The anelli is also the host of the podcast Bread and Poetry. Oh, and some more good news. Donnelly's family is out of the church as well. Thankfully, we all wear pants down. We all listen to secular music. We drink beer. We dance for ourselves. Not just for Jesus. We live our life. Diane Alley has completed a second poetry book entitled Good Monster, which will be coming out in 2024 by Copper Canyon Press and for anyone having sleep issues. Sign up for our patriarch where Tyler is going to tell you some more fun facts about Saturnalia. That's not true. Special thanks to our abseil for conducting the interview with the anelli. We'll be back next week with the very unique story of a Harvard graduate whose visit to a farm in North Carolina takes a very interesting turn. Let's just say wheat isn't the only thing that they are sowing. I remember him having dates with other women. That was very hard for me, but I was like, Well, I'm not supposed to be jealous. Being jealous is not enlightened. I better get over this, Liz. Well, now read the credits in Gloucester. Lala and I shall translate was anecdotal, but lingering belly like llablllty. Hall was an a cult is written, produced and hosted by Tyler, Me, Sam and Liz. I accusing. Produced and edited by Kristen Vermillion. Scoring and mixing by Rob Parar with additional editing support by Emily Carr and a special thanks to our very first Patreon member. Way back in February. Laura Wrangel. Don't forget to check out our Patreon and Instagram. And please be clever of you and tell your friends along the way. It really does help. Know what kind of underwear Tyler wears stick but stupid or grown adults. La la la la la land girly hardy. Nine. This festive season. Have you been nice or naughty? Why wouldn't I be nice? Reaches back and they're coming after us? Good. He's bigger, badder. I don't hats off. And he doesn't get soft. We're going to need more guns each year, the new season. Get to it. Watch now only on Prime Video.
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