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Call costs may vary and calls from mobiles may not be free. Ulster Bank Ireland DAC is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. The prosecutors is brought to you by a progressive. Progressive helps you compare direct order rates for a variety of companies so you can find a great one, even if it's not with them. Quote today progressive.com to find a rate that works with your budget. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates comparison rates not available in all states or situations. In 1973, the New York City Police Department created a hostage negotiation team. It's not up against the gun is up against the man's mind when you're defusing a human bomb. It's the same as when you're taking upon a real bomb. If you skip a step, it's going to blow up right in your face. Talk to Me tells the high stakes true story of the world's first hostage negotiation team. It changed policing forever. Talk to me. And. And I'm Bret and I'm Alice, and we are the prosecutors. Today on the prosecutors, a young boy goes to a science fair at school, but never comes home. What happened to Kyron Horman? Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the prosecutors. I'm Bret and I'm joined, as always, by my PD co-host Alex. Hi, Bret. I have no idea what PD means, like like Pete, that you burn from Scotland. That's a good guess, actually, because it is a word from Scotland. Enga, who lives on the Orkney Islands, has to be one of our few few listeners on the Orkney Islands, and I think there's only like 10 people on the Orkney Islands. So maybe everybody on the Orkney Alan's, maybe they all. Maybe. Wouldn't that be something? Yeah, maybe that's like the highest per capita listening place in the world. But in any event, she suggested it means like petite Oh, Petey, I kind of like that. I mean, I thought you were just talking about your love of whisky or something, you know, like something. Well, that's that's a well, that's a good that's a good one, Alice. Look at me, ology every day. I like words. What can I say? You do like words? It's your thing. I don't know. It's not my thing. In fact, it's just puns that I really like. But thank you, Inga. That's an awesome, awesome word. I love it. I always love learning new words, and I always get a little nervous because people give you really good words that I've never heard of. It's true. It's true. I like the ones. I like the ones from other countries because I feel like I'm learning something. Go there you go. We're bringing the world together here on the show. I like it. So shout out to everybody on the Orkney Islands who was listening to the show. Love you guys. One day will have to come over and have some that has some scotch. I have islands. I have not been to Scotland before, so I would love that. Actually, it looks beautiful. I love Scotland. Scotland's amazing. It really is. Is incredible. All we've heard about your awesome kilt story and I want to to see you in this kilt any time. Hey Alice, I will go to Scotland with you. Any time we should do a live recording there just to go. Get you. There you go. There you go. If anyone's listening in Scotland, this should be a reason for an inspiration. Send us an invitation to CNN Burgh while we are recording this on the cusp of Thanksgiving. But when this comes out will be like in the throes of the holiday season and I'm so excited. So I I usually am not like a rush to get your Christmas decorations out after Halloween person, but it's keeping my boys like in check because if they're acting well, if they're disciplined, I'm like, we'll get to take out the train today. And so today we took out the Christmas village and they just like their minds are blown. They're like the village. It's so little, but it's not real. So it's been really fun to like, slowly bring out the holiday decorations as a tool for discipline. Well, you know, my daughter this this was the first year she really enjoyed Halloween, and I think she's obviously really going to enjoy Christmas. I'm looking forward to it. I think I'm actually going to go get my Christmas tree tomorrow. So where do you go? Is it you go to like the big box stores or do you go to a farm? So I've gone to a farm before and found that to be like far more difficult than expected to be? Yeah. So I just I just went back. It'll be, you know, Home Depot for me, you no. There is no shame in that, you know, the best place when I lived in D.C., I lived in Logan Circle, which, you know, I didn't have a car anything. And so getting a Christmas tree, you had to just carry it. But the Whole Foods right there in Logan Circle always had like a little Christmas tree farm right outside on the sidewalk, and they made a killing because no one had cars. All of us, you know, just had to carry our trees over to our apartments and up probably three flights of stairs. So I had like a Whole Foods Christmas tree for many years when I lived in D.C. They yeah, look how they both got. They got good trees looking for trees, got a Home Depot. That's yeah, we've done the farm thing before. We think we're just going to stay with we in any farm to take pictures. Exactly. Go to the farm to take pictures and drink hot chocolate and that sort of thing. And I've already watched several. Hallmark Christmas movies, if you're on the gallery, I put my bingo card up there. I like how people are trying to guess what I was like. I've already bingo to this so hard guys. I don't need to share my bingo card. I've already won this. Yeah, exactly. So join us. Join us for some holiday bingo. It's a lot of fun. It is. OK. OK, let's get to end because this is an interesting case whenever someone disappears into thin air. But I just it totally boggles my mind because it's it's really hard guys to disappear into thin air, either on purpose or by accident or to make someone else disappear. It's even though we hear about it and we talk about a lot of these cases, it is just not an easy feat. And this is one of the most into thin air disappearances I've ever seen. I mean, we're going to talk about this case for a couple, three episodes or so. I'm not sure exactly how long it will take, but there is just not a lot of evidence in this case. This is a case that comes highly recommended. Everybody wants us to do this case. We've been sort of circling around it for a while. You know, it's one that a lot of people have covered, but there's just not a ton of information out there because once again, there's just not a lot of information. But if you are interested in this case, there's a couple things you can do. You can check out Little Boy Lost, which is on Investigation Discovery. It's kind of a nice primer for it. Oregon Love, which is a website that covers Oregon, has a lot of articles on this case. Good place to start if you want to read a book on this. There's a book called Boy Missing the search for Kyron Horman, which is good. I recommend that as well, but we're to do our best and we're going to try and tease out some things that happened in this case. But this is this one's a mystery. This is a tough one. This is one where there's a reason it fascinates people and true crime. And you're going to see that if you're not familiar with this story, this is a story that's that's going to send you down some rabbit holes. But unfortunately, there's just not that many holes to go down because this has said we have sort of a focus in this case that we're going to talk about can become pretty obvious, pretty quickly who people think is involved in this. But a lot of it is speculative because there's just not a lot of hard evidence. But for those of you who don't know this story? Let me give you the background. So Kyron Horman was a normal seven year old little boy. He loved tree frogs and spending time with his mom, Desiree. He was scared of storms and the dark. Now he lived with his dad, Kaine, and his stepmother, Terri Moulton. And there was no reason to think that anything bad could happen in his life. But soon Cameron would become the center of a tremendous mystery. One of the most confounding and intractable of the 21st century, when he seemingly vanished into thin air from his own school. Where did Kyron go? Did someone take him? And was that someone a person he should have been able to trust above all others? So with that, let's dive into the timeline. On September 9th, 2002, Kyron Horman is born in Portland, Oregon. By the time of his birth, his parents, Kaine Horman and Desiree Young, are in the process of getting a divorce. Kaine had cheated on Desiree while she was pregnant with a woman named Terri Moulton. Kaine stayed with Terri, the girlfriend, and would eventually marry her in 2007. But by the time Kyron was around, his parents were no longer together. And this is this is a really important thing that happened. You know, it's hard for something like that not to cast a very long shadow over the rest of your life, and it certainly did. And it's sort of going to dominate this entire story. It's an interesting group of people. Kaine and Terri are really into working out. They're really into the gym. They met at the gym. Terri was actually a bodybuilder. So, you know, one of those people who they take the pictures with all the muscles and everything she was, she was a bodybuilder. And so that was something they had in common. She was absolutely committed to the gym. And apparently, you know, Desiree is pregnant and I guess maybe she can go to the gym as much. And it didn't take long for Kane to find the next person. So not an auspicious way to begin the story, but it is something that we're going to come back to again and again. Definitely. And also that Terry's been around basically, or at least has been in the picture since Kyron was born. Now 2004, Desiree is diagnosed with kidney failure and has to travel to Canada for treatment, and Kyron is just really a toddler at this point. Now, up to this point, she did have primary custody of Kyron, but because of the kidney failure, she could no longer care for him while her treatment was ongoing. And so Kaine and Terri became Kyron's chief caregivers. They refused to return him to Desiree's custody, though, when she returns from Canada now because Desiree had surrendered custody to the couple when she left Oregon law allows them to take this action. So basically, Desiree had no choice but to to give up custody when she went to go get treatment. But I think she expected to get Kyron back when he when she came back from getting her treatment. But that wasn't the case, and the law in the state allowed allowed Kaine and Terri to do that. Now, in the years that follow, Kaine and Terri will have a daughter of their own. So Kyron's half sister? Now we're going to jump ahead a little bit. So this is all you know. This is again talking about the the auspicious and auspicious start to his life. This is a lot going on when he's just about one and a half years old. He probably doesn't remember much of this, but this explains why he doesn't live with his mom. You know, every state laws are different, but for the most part, child custody laws will favor custody with the mother. For rightly or wrongly, that's what you will see in a lot of states. And so this this begins to paint a picture of what's going on. And obviously, there's a lot of distrust is building up in this family. You can imagine, I mean, this is a mess. This is a mess. If you read boy missing, you really get an insight into how much dysfunction is going on with these adults and how much their children pay because of it. And it's not unusual. It's a story as old as time, it's one you'll hear a thousand times. But you know, it's hard to get into this story and really dig into it and not feel like, man, I wish people had just I wish they just put the kids first a little bit more because there's so much game playing going on. And this is sort of the start of it where, yeah, you know, Desiree, she she needed critical medical care. And I think her thought in her understanding when she went off to Canada to get this care was when she came back. She'd get her child back, but she didn't. You know, she shows back up and they're like, no, and so she tries to him to court and the court says sorry. And it makes sense. I mean, it makes sense in the abstract to have a law like this. Basically, if you abandon your child to the custody of somebody else, don't come complaining to us and wanting him back. So you made your bed, now you get a lie on it. But this is a very unusual circumstance, and it kind of feels like that Desiree really, really got, you know, screwed over in this, frankly. And it sets once again. Everything is happening in this distant past is setting the stage for what's going to come and for a lot of sort of the distrust that continues to this day. And I can't even imagine, by the way, to be facing kidney failure. Not want to leave your child who you clearly care very much about? This was not a situation where she actually abandoned him. She just could not take him to go get treatment in Canada. And I think she fully, fully expected that she'd get him back. I can't. How do you even like have that conversation? Like, you know, someone comes to ring your doorbell and say, I'm here to pick up my child and you're like, Nope, not really. That's not going to happen. You know, we're we're going through this quickly because we're trying to get to the the tragedy here really in a few years. But this is huge and cannot be overstated. Now let's fast forward to June 3rd, 2010. Terri brings Kyron's Science Fair exhibit to Skyline Elementary, where he attends school. The science fair is the next day and the science fair is going to play a huge role in this story. And it's also interesting to Terri does bring this the day before this a little fact that people kind of mix up. Sometimes people will sometimes say that that she brought the exhibit the next day, and the reason that's important. There's going to be a lot of focus on Terri here as we go forward. Spoiler alert going to be a lot of focus on her and what she did and when she did it. And there are people who say that Terri was this dedicated mother who was absolutely committed to Kyron and she might have been a stepmother, but he was a son to her. And then there's other people who say she was completely aloof, didn't care about him at all and didn't have anything to do with him. So there are some little facts about things she did the next day. And it's important just to know if you care to know that she took the exhibit the day before. We'll talk about in a second why that may be important, but nevertheless, June 3rd, 2010 she takes the exhibit next day, June 4th Main Day. We're going to talk about 8:00 a.m. Skyline Elementary opens, allowing parents and students to tour the science fair. So basically any of you who've had kids or have been kids, I remember the science fair. And you know, you set up everything in the gym and everybody walks around acts like what you did was brilliant instead of probably not that brilliant at all. And somebody gets a blue ribbon and it's all gray and the parents look around and it's wonderful. Right? Well, that's essentially what this is. So they take the stuff on June 3rd. I think they got graded on it on June 3rd and then June 4th is the day when all the parents get to come and see it. So being the loving stepmother that she is, Terri is going to go and see this whole setup. There's also supposed to be a talent show that will be held later that day at one o'clock. So at 8:15, PTA President Gina Zimmerman sees Cameron with his step mom Terri, in front of his exhibit, which is a poster on Red Bud Tree Frogs. Terry takes a picture and it is the last one ever taken of car, and if you're watching this on YouTube, you're seeing it right now. If you visit the website, you'll see it as well. If you know anything about this case, you have seen this picture a thousand times. So it's not just PTA President Zimmerman who's going to see Carr and his friends Carson, Tanner, Curtis and Lee also see him. And in fact, Terry takes a picture of Ellie. She has a project on Turtles. Now around 8:30 that morning, Kyron and Terri visit Scott Macbeth's classroom. That's Kyron's teacher in kindergarten and in first grade. Afterwards, Kyron goes up the stairwell nearest his classroom, while Terri goes up the stairs at the other end of the hallway near to the gym. She will later say that the last thing she saw was Kyron walking to class, and that class was math cla*s. She says that she waved at him as he entered his classroom at 8:45. Terri leaves the school, so no, here the story here is that they're not walking together, so she sees him go to the classroom, but they're actually using two different staircases and you can kind of imagine this. And it's important to imagine this is, of course, important. So basically, the school has these to sort of it's divided in half. He's got this teacher that he had for a couple of years. They go by to visit him before school starts to say hello. And then essentially he's going to go to cla*s. She's going to leave and there's these two stairways and they sort of both. They go up the stairways at the same time. She turns around, she sees him, she waves, he waves and she watches him walk into his classroom. And the expectation is, you know, she's delivered him now and everybody who has kids, if you ever dropped him off at daycare or school or whatever. A lot of times you'll watch him until they get it. You know, they get on the bus or they get into school or they walk into their classroom. And then your thought is they are now safe. They are with another group of adults are going to take care of them and I can go. And that's the story that Terri presents, that she did the thing that a good mother should do. She made sure that her child made it to class before she left right. And soon after that, 8:45 Terri leaves the school and another student does, reporting Kyron about 15 minutes after Terri leaves the school at 9:00. A. M. And the importance of that, as you can probably tell, is that if Terri left the school. And the idea is that Kyron went with her, then someone couldn't have seen Kyron at the school. But that's not the case. Terri, left in Kyron, is reported as being seen in the school by somebody else. Now, obviously, that's a very controversial sighting. It's a student. It's a young student. After Kyron disappears, the police will interview every single student at Skyline Elementary, trying to establish a timeline for what happened to Kyron. And they have this one student. We don't know who it is. And you know, this is another thing. We're going to talk about a lot of things as if it's rock solid absolutely happened. There's a lot of stuff that we believe we know based on things the police have told the family. Not a lot of public information on this case. The police have kept a lot of things close to the vest, as they often do. And this is another case, so people criticize the police for that, including Desiree. But it seems like there was a student who says they thought they saw a car. Now here's the thing they say they saw him at nine o'clock. How much do you trust that a child in elementary school? No one is going to know for sure they saw him. Number two is going to be accurate about the day they saw him, and number three is going to be accurate about the time they saw him. So this is a controversial sighting. Obviously, if it's accurate, it's very significant. But it is impossible to know whether it's accurate or not. So we're up to nine o'clock, so 9:00 Terry goes to a Fred Meyer store to pick up some children's Motrin for her daughter. Her daughter is with her, she wrote. They took the truck. Talk more about that in a minute, but they took the drug to drop Kyron off and do all this other stuff. The daughter is with her. She has an ear infection and obviously it's bothering her. So Terri is looking for some Children's Motrin to treat this ear infection, so her daughter will have a little bit of relief now. The first daughter doesn't have it in stock, so she has to drive to another store. Another Fred Meyer to pick up the medicine. She arrives at the first store at around nine 12 a.m., the second at 9:40 a.m. She then stops at the dry cleaner and a craft store, Michaels leaving there around 10 10. Terry does buy the medicine. She also buy some groceries now, strangely, when police asked to see these items later on. No one's able to find them. The items are never really produced. And you know, this is one of those things where you feel like the police should be able to figure out whether she bought this stuff or not. Feels like she probably did. Not sure why she can't produce them. I don't know. It's something people point to. Maybe significant. Maybe it's not now. At this point, Terry does something that seems like it might be a little unusual. She says that she drives around for about 90 minutes an hour and a half, hoping that the motion will help her daughter sleep. So she's got her daughter in the back seat. She's having an era. She's obviously upset. Probably Terri's finally got some medicine. I assume she gives it to her, and now she's driving around for an hour and a half, and this is something some people do. You know, my kids always fall asleep in the back of the car. We don't really drive them around for any purpose because the last thing I want to do is get in a habit of having to drive my kids around any time that they don't feel well. But this is something people do. Some people act like. It's strange that she's driving her around for the earache. The point is to put the child to sleep. It's not going to cure the earache. But if you put the child to sleep, then they're going. There obviously won't be crying, they won't be in pain, and then you can do whatever going to do. Having said that, an hour and a half is a long time. 90 minutes is a long time to drive the streets of Oregon trying to to sort of rock your child to sleep. How old is her daughter at this point? Do we know? I'm just curious like someone who can speak or not. OK, so she can't. She is old enough to speak because that actually becomes like a thing later on, I think. But I think she's really young. I think she's like two, maybe three or so, OK? And you know, that's a good point, because I will say the driving around to get your child to sleep honestly, is more of a baby thing because babies can be able to sleep more easily than a toddler. My kids, I love them to sleep in the car when they were still like in an infant carrier, so like a year or younger. But I can no longer really lull my children to sleep at age three at two, almost three and five. So that is a really long time, especially if she's already been driving at this point for about 70 minutes. And if those 70 minutes her daughter has been really upset with an ear infection, I'm not sure I would have it in me to drive for a total of two and a half hours because I'd be like, I need to get out of this car, like, let her play somewhere, go outside, go walk around or something. So you know it is. It is an interesting fact. It's not totally out there. Every parent's done this before, but now the placement of it is an interesting fact, and it's going to get a little weirder even as we go on. And I believe her daughter was two and a half three at the time. Someone wants to correct me on that. They can, but not a baby, but not, you know, not old enough to be going to school. For instance, she's still with her mother. So at 10 o'clock, classes begin at Skyline Elementary. So they've been having this, this whole fair thing all morning. So classes don't even start till 10:00. When they do, the teacher takes role in the math class, the one that Kyron was supposedly going to. And he is marked as absent. And in fact, he is not seen at the school that day. Now what I find interesting about this. What we're told by Terry is that at around. 8:45, she walks up the stairway. Karen's walking up the stairway. She was it, Karen. He goes to his math cla*s. Why would he go to his math class at that point? The math class doesn't start until 10:00, so that's an hour and 15 minutes before the math class is going to start. I mean, I guess maybe he went to pick something up or drop something off and then went back to the gym. But it's certainly not the case that he's going to class and he's now going to be in class and you have to worry about him anymore. It's just it's something that doesn't quite fit with the unusual schedule. That day would make more sense, frankly, if she just said, I left him at the fair. He was at the fair. He was with the teachers. He was with the other students and I left him. But this sort of notion that he would have gone to class that early doesn't really fit. So then a very strange thing happened. So remember? This it's around 10, 10, 10 o'clock, 10, 10. When Terry is is driving around supposedly with her daughter, well, at 10:30, someone will see Terry's truck parked on the side of Newbury Road, which is not far from Skyline Elementary. At some point in our coverage of this case, we're going to go through these locations where they are and how far everything is away from each other. But just know that where Terri was when she was at the Fred Meyer, when she was at the the dry cleaner. All that stuff is not close to Newbury Road. Skyline Elementary is close to Newbury Road. But those things aren't in Newbury Road, in fact, is kind of out in the middle of nowhere. And so she is seen parked on the side of the road. She will be confronted about this later, and we'll have a story to tell which we'll talk about. But this is when she's supposedly driving around trying to lull her daughter to sleep. An hour later, at 11:30, Didi Spicer will leave her job. Her coworkers will say that she leaves her job. Now she is a friend of Terry's and the way this will be described as she abruptly leaves her job at a lavender farm. Around 11:30 and is going for about 90 minutes, and she will reappear 90 minutes later, and this was an unusual thing, and so it was something that stuck out in the minds of people who could not find her. And obviously, if we're going to talk more about her later on. The prosecutors is sponsored by BetterHelp guys, it's the holiday season and you know how it can be. It's a time that should be joyous, but it's also a time that's stressful and it's a time when depression and the problems in your life can really seem like they are on top of you. And that's why this is a good time to give yourself a gift to raise your spirits and not just for one day. 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No, that's a Samsung Galaxy Z Flip four ways it was so tiny, but it just unfolded into a full size phone. Wow. Sony got upset on the side and took a selfie. Totally hands free. Nice. Would you look at her now she's watching a movie about getting her hair done? I'm well, jav flexible design for any situation with the Galaxy Z Flip for a serious flex. Now at 11:39 a.m., Terry, where he talked about how she was a former bodybuilder, swings by the gym where she leaves her daughter at the onsite daycare. And although Terry will say she arrived at 11:39, the gym will actually clock her in at 12 20. So 40 minutes later than she says, she arrives like, Click on this. This is interesting if in fact, her daughter is suffering from an earache to be dropped off at a daycare. If she's not contagious, you can certainly take him to a daycare. But just usually I mean, we both have had kids who have had a lot of ear infections. They're usually very clingy. They want to be by you all the time, and I usually don't take them to, you know, extracurricular activities or daycares because they're usually just a little sad and whiny. So I'll put that out there if this is part of the whole ear infection thing. Yeah. And I want to talk about this too, because and I'm sure just to save your emails sending is about how you're an amazing parent and you do this all the time. But I'll just go ahead and tell you when you have a toddler, a three year old, a four year old, if you're going to take him somewhere. Your best bet is to pick one thing to do and do that when you start making multiple stops, the toddler, you're asking for trouble and she is just all over the place with this, this girl. And she's not just a toddler, as Alice said, she's a toddler with an earache. And here's the question I have. I am not as good a parent as Alice is. Alice is very thoughtful and considerate. If it had been me, I would have gone straight to the gym to give her to the onsite daycare so that I didn't have to deal with it anymore. Right? Like, you give it to the onsite daycare and you're like, You guys take care of her. I'm going to go to the gym. I gave her some Motrin like, stop and get the Motrin. Give it to her, then go to the gym. Onsite daycare is better than driving around for 90 minutes. Right? They can maybe, you know, put her in a crib, get her to sleep, put her in a rocker or any number of things, and you can go spend 90 minutes at the gym, which you love to do. You know, if you're her, why are you driving around all this time when your plan has always been to go to the gym with the onsite daycare? Why do you do that? It really doesn't make any sense. And another thing on that I know she wasn't able to produce any of the groceries she bought that morning, but the thing that is most confusing to me is not being able to find the Motrin because any of you who've gotten Children's Motrin, it's usually liquid rather than pills. Because kids have difficulty swallowing pills, they choke. So it's usually a liquid bottle and there's usually like a syringe like looking thing or a cup to drink from. But either way, it's usually two parts for kids, and it's more than one dose. I don't even think you can buy Liquid Motrin for children, that is one dose, so you wouldn't just get one dose in throw throwaway the packaging, rather even the smallest bottle has multiple multiple doses in it. And the thing is Motrin, you take every six hours again, but you and I have a lot of experience with this. We go through a lot of Motrin and a lot of Tylenol with ear infections. And it's like clockwork at five and a half hours. Basically, I'm getting the Motrin out prepared to give him his next dose so that the motor doesn't wear off. He gets very whiny. And then I have to wait another 30 minutes for the motor to kick in. And I'm like standing right there waiting for the next dose so he can have some relief. That's continued, which means I keep the Motrin actually out next to me at all times when we're in the midst of Motrin Tylenol regimen in an ear infection spout now. OK, so the gym says she comes at 12:20, and here's the thing she doesn't actually even workout. She leaves at 12 42. Now, it might not seem as strange if she did show up at eleven thirty nine because then she would have been at the gym for an entire hour. But that's not what the gym has her clocking in at. And not only does she not work out there, she actually just spends time talking to people at the gym and showing pictures of Kyron with his science project from that morning. So I don't know what the purpose of going to the gym was. Or maybe she had run out of time because she'd driven around for an hour and a half, but she drops off her daughter in order to be able to talk about Kyron to other people at the gym, but only for about 20 minutes. And there are several things about this that are unusual. Number one, she says she got there at eleven thirty nine, but the gym has her clocking in 40 minutes later. What is the cause of that discrepancy? Why does that discrepancy exist? Why would she be saying that she got there earlier than she did if she spent 40 minutes talking to people? That's also unusual. But remember, and Allison, I love talking about people going to the gym. This lady is not like us. This is what she does. And the more we talk about her, there will be more anecdotes about how much she goes to the gym. This is not the kind of person who goes to a gym for 20 minutes. This is the kind of person who goes to the gym and it's business and they get down to business. And for her once again to take her daughter, who doesn't feel very well. On this additional stop, not even really go to the gym, but just spend time talking to people showing pictures of Kyron, which was a red flag for disarray because, according to her, at least Terri wasn't the kind of person to do that, but she's doing it that day. So on this day, you might say she's establishing an alibi. If one were a cynic might say that it's just so happens. This is the day where everybody sees her at the gym and they know she's there because she's she's not at the machine working out or, you know, bench pressing. She's talking to people. She's being the social butterfly. And not only is she being a social butterfly, but she's showing how much she cares about her stepson. Oh, look at it, look at him. Well, this tree frog poster or whatever, I mean, that's what she's doing. And here's an interesting thing it's not enough to just be seen in public to have an alibi. You need people to remember that you were there. And if you go somewhere where people know you like your gym that you typically frequent, then we talked about this with emerging cancer, how he went to his dojo, he went to his dojo studio, he went to work out and that was part of his like that. You know, people saw him and knew him there. Same here with this gym she didn't just go to because she's been in the public. Remember, she's been at the Fred Meyer store at two of them, so you could pull up security footage and find her there. But here she is, talking to people who know her, who know her name and will remember speaking with her. And we'll remember seeing pictures of Kyron and also know something about Kyron that they could talk about him if asked by, say, the police later on. So it's a it's a good alibi to have to be talking to people, you know? One other thing I want to know about young children who are sick. My kids eat like clockwork. If noone comes around and lunch is not being served, they lose their minds. Now, maybe her daughter is sick and she does want to eat. But this is right around the lunch hour, which most parents are on like a one, you know, beeline mission to get some type of food into their kids before they get hangry and meltdown. Because kids are smaller, their metabolisms work differently than adults. You and I can skip a meal and we won't just fall into a puddle, but kids, their glucose levels, you know, can't regulate themselves like adults can. And so not only is it lunchtime hour, but she's actually they're not at a restaurant. They're not eating. She's on. She's at the daycare, which is just another interesting thing. As a pair, I wouldn't have thought of this before I was a parent, but now I'm like 12, 20 tall, 42 and that is like peak getting ready for nap, making sure everyone's fed so that we can have a good rest of the day if especially if you're sick. Whatever else I've seen you when you miss a meal, oh, it's terrible. I'm like a child. Let's be honest, that's why I feel this so deeply OK. So she leaves at 12 42 and at one o'clock, Terri arrives home. Now, remember, one o'clock was also the time of the talent show at the school. So this is the same time that the talent show begins, and it's sometimes stated that Kyron was supposed to be a part of the show, but we don't think that's actually true. And that would explain why his parents are at the talent show, either. And why no one noticed his absence. Because if he was just supposed to be sitting in the audience, talent shows any show. Usually the attention is all on who's on the stage, and the rest of the auditorium typically is darkened. And so you may not miss someone who is or is not in the audience there. And this would make sense, too, because Terri, you know, clearly was at the science fair that morning, and she had the availability to be at the school at one o'clock if Kyron was in fact in the talent show. So I think it probably is true that he was not part of the talent show. Now at 1:21 p.m., Terri's back home, remember, she actually posted the picture of Kyron at the school fair to Facebook, the one that you guys have all see now. She then emails Kyron's teacher to confirm when she can pick up his science project. Terri then emailed Desiree to let her know that she had posted the photo, as well as to ask her about some summer plans. Now, this was unusual. Terri didn't usually email Desiree as she had photos for her. She would put them in a flash drive that she sent with Kyron. Desiree was the one who was scheduled to pick up Kyron that evening for her weekend visit with him. And I think this is interesting too, because the thing about this, there's there's a couple of things interesting that obviously is something people pick up on. Desiree is supposed to pick up Kyron that evening. There was no rush to do this. She could have given her the photos literally that day, but she's not doing that. She's emailing her and there's something else I think's interesting about this, which just goes to something we just have to talk about our kids all the time. We're going to keep doing that because one one she got home around one, she is Johnny on the spot doing this stuff because think about what's happened this day. She's been driving around with a sick kid for a couple of hours. She, as Alice, said, kids probably had been fed. It's going to be about naptime. And yeah, in 20 minutes, she's already taken care of all the things she needed to take care of with her daughter and gotten on the computer and fired up Facebook and made sure she posted that picture, and she's emailing people and emailing the picture. This is remarkable efficiency to me. When Alison are going to record, sometimes, you know, I'll say, Well, let me, let me put the kids down, and 30 minutes later, maybe I'm ready, right? And like, it's just the fact that she was able to get home at 1:00. Take care of everything with her daughter and do. This tells me this was really important to her that she get this done. And it's interesting because the things she gets done are, you know, like proof of Kyron. And also two of her emails are talking about the future, the future of picking up a science project. Like, just really the last thing I want in my house is like yet another big poster board that my child has done. I love my child, but like, I'm not like rearing to have every single picture he draws at school. Come home with me because there's so many of them. And second, asking about something so far out as summer plans, you know, like, is this the time to do it? I mean, one o'clock when you have a sick child, maybe no one's eaten, including yourself. You're going to worry about that. Maybe. But like you said, it's they're very if you're trying to set up an alibi, this is this is what you would do. You know, it reminds me of it reminds me of the voicemail message that Scott Peterson left on Lacey's phone when he was driving back from dumping her body. That's what it reminds me of. It really does where it's like, Oh, you know, I couldn't get around to pick up the gift. I'll see you soon. Levy, like all the things that you would expect, one day someone's going to listen to it and be like, Well, clearly he didn't kill her because he left this voicemail. And sure enough, there are people who do that, and it's just a smart thing to do, right? When you're setting up your allies. Both Desiree and the teacher are like, Well, at this point in time. At 1:21, Terry clearly doesn't suspect anything wrong because she's talking about him in the future tense. You know what's going to happen this summer? What am I going to pick up your science project? That sort of thing. And also, it's interesting to be talking to Desiree because Desiree is going to figure it out very soon, and there's almost like a marker in the sand. Well, it couldn't be Terri. She was just talking to me about him. When Desiree figures out that Kyron is not at school and you see this so often in these cases, this is being overly normal. It's being normal in a way that emphasizes just how normal you were being is what is what happens. And you see this in a lot of cases where people who are guilty will do things like this. A lot of times if somebody hires a hit man, they're going to do this. Not saying there was a hit man in this case, but that's what people do. They're going to do things to just, you know, to make it seem like, man, what a normal day I was having everybody saw just how normal my day was and there were people everywhere I went who will remember just how normal everything was. I mean, that's what they do because they're trying to set up this alibi and they want to make sure nobody misses it. You know, like Alice said, it's important that they remember and I feel like this is just maybe it's innocent, but it feels so much like laying down a marker for the future of, well, obviously I didn't have anything to do with it because I just I was planning for the future. Like Alice said, I was sending off photos I was posting on Facebook. I couldn't have anything to do with this is what it feels like. It just has that feeling. So two hours later, at 3:30, Terry and Cain remember Cain is Kyron's dad. They go to meet the bus at the bus stop, which is something they often do. But bus stop happens. Kids get off. Car is not one of them. He is not on the bus. They ask the bus driver what's going on? The bus driver says never got on the bus. This point, they call the school, and that's when they realize the car and has been absent from school all day. Weird thing happens here. I think it's weird. Some people think it's weird. Maybe it's not. Terri asks the school to call 9-1-1, so they find out that the child's missing. She asked the school to call 9-1-1. She doesn't call 9-1-1 when the the mother and father don't call 9-1-1. They have the school. Do it. Maybe that was just convenient. I don't know. It's something that's always kind of struck me as a strange thing. But whatever the case, that 346 the school calls them. One and report Karen missing, and this is one of those cases where the police bathe themselves in glory, it's kind of crazy how much effort the police put into this, given how little evidence is actually found, the police immediately respond. They're heading to Skyline Infowars and Terry in Cain are going to Skyline as well by seven o'clock. You have a formal missing person search. The locals are calling in the FBI. They're not hesitating. They're not waiting to get as many people involved in this as they can, and they are going to search all night with a lot of people. By 11 p.m., they have searched the school. They have searched all the sort of outhouses around the school. They have searched surrounding buildings that aren't even connected to the school. They have searched a train tunnel that's near the school and they've searched Kyron's home because that's always a place you go because you never know what kids they might have gone home. They might be hiding. You just don't know. So they have searched a lot of stuff already on this first day when Kyron's gone missing. But despite this, just remember there, Johnny on the spot. But by this point, it's been 15 hours since the last time anyone saw Kyron. A lot of time has passed. And part of the reason a lot of time has passed is because everyone thought everything was fine, in part because of what Terri was doing. Right now, we go through the night. The next morning, June 5th at five a.m., hundreds of locals and professional searchers are looking for Kyron. This is really a community that's come together. It captures everyone's attention this young seven year old boy missing out of thin air. Now the search continues throughout the day. The police use scent dogs, though Desiree would later state that the police had trouble finding anything with Kyron's scent on it because Terri went on a laundry spree the night before washing all of his clothes. Also kind of convenient. Now the FBI and the National Guard are both involved. We've talked about this before where smaller jurisdictions or really any state and local law enforcement can call on the FBI or National Guard to help. If it's just something that requires a lot of effort and they want to, you know, double, double or triple their their manpower to search because time is of the essence. We've talked about this every hour that passes with a missing person, especially a missing child. The risks heighten and the probability of finding them alive diminishes quickly. I just find this really interesting that the clothing, the scent thing, even if I did a lot of laundry, which I don't do, even if I did a lot of laundry, there's still be a lot of things in my house with my kids scent on it, their bedsheets, their blankets, their favorite stuff is there. You know, there's they're all over my house all the time, and my laundry machines are not big enough for me to wash everything that has their scent on it in one night. And let me just say this Desiree does not like Terry, and she's got lots of reasons not to like her. I mean, given the fact that her husband was having an affair with her while she was pregnant and in fact invited her to the hospital when the baby was born so that she could meet, you know what was going to be her stepson? Just not cool, right? This doesn't like her and is pretty convinced that she had something to do with Kyron's disappearance. So most of the things you will read and see are very much from Desiree's perspective. Desiree owns the narrative on this case. There's not a lot of information out there, not a lot of information coming from the police. And as we've said before, when you have an information vacuum, something will fill that up. And in this case, it's been Desiree and her statements and her recollection of everything that happened. Having said that, I think you have to take it with a grain of salt, given her perspective. She says that this is what Terri was doing. I'm sure Terri would probably tell you this is how I deal with stress and not even think about it. And so I was just cleaning and I was washing, and I was hoping we'd hear something. Whatever the case is, according to Desiree, this is what happened. I don't know. It's a weird thing. It is a little bit weird. And remember, you're right, you have to take things with a grain of salt. Coming from Desiree, but like Desiree, also has a reason to suspect Terry. This is a woman who, like, hoodwinked her when she was in kidney failure and kept her child for the next six years. You know, so there's a lot of history there to keep in mind as we go through this now. On June 6th, the FBI create a profile of Kyron and along with 50 detectives. That's a lot of detectives, y'all. That's like everyone on the force begins interviewing 300 students and their parents. Kyron's relatives are distributing flyers. And the Flyers read three feet, eight inches tall, 50 pounds blue eyes, brown hair, last seen wearing black cargo pants, white socks and worn black sketchier tennis shoes with orange trim the same description that you see in the picture from the science fair. The last morning he was seen and you could see his just a little kid. I mean, it's like three and a half feet tall, 50 pounds. And by the way, it's just kind of terrifying. That's how big my two year old is. I have a monster of a child. He was. He was a little kid. I was a kid. Yeah, and generally describes, you know, super sweet. I just, I mean, he's a kid, right? And the thing about this is we've reached the end of our timeline because literally nothing happens after this crazy, by the way, that nothing happens because they jumped on it so quickly. There's no there's nothing else. Yeah, I mean, we can't we can't, you know, a lot of times we'll skip ahead six months when they found something, they didn't find anything ever. They didn't find anything. And they worked this case to death to the point that at Multnomah County. Board meetings. The cost of this became an issue because the county was spending so much money every month on the search for months on in trying to find something, I mean, they were absolutely committed to this. You could not have had a more committed group of people trying to find this child. And they just found nothing. I mean, nothing. Not a scrap of clothing. Not a footprint. Not a confirmed sighting. I mean, people, of course, would call in and say, I saw a kid down at the corner kind of look like him. But those aren't real sightings. Not a single thing. Ever came out of this search that we know of? Now, once again, maybe they have some information they've never released. But as far as anybody knows, this was a complete dead end and it just didn't matter how many days and how many weeks and how many months they put into this became a huge story in Portland. This was not a story that was underreported. Everybody in Oregon knew about. This was a big story. It was a pretty big story nationally, but it was a really big story in Oregon. So people were looking, they were looking for him and there was just nothing. And it just feels like. He just literally vanished into thin air with no trace to the point that it's just it's it's really hard to believe it's even possible. It's really hard to believe because remember, it's not that they were out camping in the middle of nowhere and they woke up and he was gone and he wandered off and they never found a trace of him. He's in the middle of a school and there are tons of people at school, more people than normal, which on the one hand, both makes it potentially more dangerous, but also means there should have been a lot more witnesses who saw something. And yet you don't see that. We're going to talk about this case a lot more, we got a lot more to talk about. This is just like, Oh, my brain is like hurting because I'm trying to make sense of all of it, and I cannot believe there's not more information. There's not a whole lot more information out there. Other things are going to talk about which are interesting. And there's a lot about Terri. I will say this if Terri is a red herring, if she had nothing to do with this, then we literally have nothing. We have no data. Most of what we're going to talk about are things that lead people to think that Terri may have been involved in this. And you can judge for yourself whether or not this is real or not. Big Divine, the true crime community. There's a lot of people who really feel like this is become a witch hunt, that Terri is an innocent person who who because there's no information. People just latched on to and really made her life a living hell to the point that at one point she tried to change your name. But the people who who really don't like her showed up to the court hearing and protested it and the judgment let her change your name. So it's just her life has been ruined by this, whether she did this or not. She is. She has continued to live under this really dark cloud. We're going to talk about the facts. We're going to talk about some of the things that lead you both ways. And maybe hopefully there's somebody out there who does know something. It would be nice to provide some sort of closure to this family. Like I said, we got a lot more to talk about on this. I got several more episodes we're going to do on this. If you have thoughts, she just an email prosecutors pod at gmail.com. Check us out on Twitter and our prosecutors pod and our social media. A lot of those of you on YouTube. I hope those of you on Patron are enjoying this episode early and ad free. You guys are the best and we love you. Let us know what you think. Live Review Tell a Friend Gives five Stars Whatever You Wanna Do to Help. I prefer telling a friend, telling friends, Always the best thing you can do. But you guys, you guys do you. Why else is there anything else you want to say before we sign off? I'm so excited to really dive into this. You know, we spent a lot of time on the timeline because we wanted to make sure you guys knew where everything was, especially because there's so little information in this case, but you just wait. It gets weirder when we really dive into all the different factors within this case, so we look forward to doing that next time. Yes, we do. But until next time, Bret and I'm Alice in, we are the prosecutors. And let's get to it anyway. Think probably. Yeah. OK. And melanoma. Melanoma. OK, dogs barking downstairs. So can he just wants to be part of the podcast? There you go. Here we go. Mm hmm. Oh, I'm going to get to work. I know it's a lot, man. I can't just wipe them out like you do, I had to get them out, get get them a list. OK, now that's a no. You may not be able to file extensions like you want. Exactly, and I can't even call extensions for myself to whatever. Oh no. That's kind of I'm just as greatness all around me. You know, it's just if I have seen this because I stood on the shoulders of giants, that's know that. Michael Barraba Motors Airside Motor Park, the home of premium used cars in Dublin, over 100 used cars in stock and ready to drive away hybrids, diesel, petrol and automatic. They're all here with very competitive finance options. All trade ins welcome. We're sure to have a car to suit both your needs and your budget, and every car leaves here fully serviced with a one year warranty to view. 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