Leslie Liao | Finding Humor in the Truth!

Transcript

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show on the Choose Yourself Network. Today on the James Altucher Show. Has there ever been anything in life you've really wanted? I'm sure there is. Yes. And when you found out you couldn't get it, did you want it just a little bit more? Yeah, of course. So that's what we're selling. I really think the bottom line with your rules is is self respect, take time for yourself, build yourself up. I'm gonna quote Warren Buffett here. He once said, the best way to be loved is to be lovable. I think the real secret to what you 2 have done with the rules and with all the follow-up books is to really say don't outsource your self esteem, and here are some guidelines. Yes. So I'm sitting here with 2 lovely women who have I can't decide, ladies, whether you've completely ruined my life or helped me, so you're gonna help me decide this before the end. But, anyway, Ellen Fine and Sherry Schneider, authors of the classic book, The Rules. You know, it's funny. Some people don't I I know this book inside and out because every woman I ever dated, back in the nineties and early o o's had read the rules and were following the rules, the rules that you too had developed. I can't believe I'm talking to you on behalf of every single person I've ever dated and every man who's ever been frustrated by every woman who they ever dated. But, the rules are, a set of rules for women to follow, in dating. It's almost like, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm gonna I'm gonna broaden it, but we'll deepen into each one. It's almost like a, have self respect for yourself, play a little hard to get, and the guys will be more attracted. So so you're nodding ahead, but welcome, Ellen Fine, Sherry Schneider. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for having us. And I just wanna mention you wrote the rules. You wrote the rules for marriage. You wrote the, expanded rules, which is now called the All The Rules. You wrote the rules for, online dating, rules your mother didn't tell you. So I have an 18 year old and 15 year old daughter. Maybe they will listen to this. I don't know if they've ever listened to any of my podcasts, but maybe they'll listen to this. And they will know for them to listen to. They they will know their their dating life. Now I wanna just, read out loud some of the rules, and then maybe we can talk about them. And then I wanna also figure out you you mentioned in the book and the book was written and first published in 1995, and I know you've expanded it and and rewritten some stuff. But, obviously, the world's changed. But when you wrote it, you said the book that these rules are are everlasting. They're they're they're they're gonna withstand the test of time. And a lot of things have changed in the dating world, and I'm curious how the rules have changed. And you've addressed this in future books, but we could talk about it on this podcast. But I think some of these rules obviously still apply. So for instance, don't talk to a man first. That's one rule. That's rule number 2. Don't accept a Saturday night date after Wednesday. Don't. So ends to to this day. Yes. Goodness. Yes. What's today? Tuesday? Yeah. Today till Wednesday, girls, and then it's like you're busy. You made other plans. He needs to get on it. It's everlasting because 20 years ago is don't call men first or don't speak to them first. Now it's don't text them first. Don't Facebook message them first. You know, don't friend them first. Don't follow them on Instagram first. Whatever technology or medium you're in, don't initiate. Well okay. So this is a good story. Right? There's there's 35 rules, but, obviously, we've we've kicked off some discussion with just 2 of them. So let's talk about that. Don't initiate, first. There's also rules relating to how much time should pass after they text you, so you don't seem too eager. But I feel like in today's world, if I text somebody and they don't text right back, I kinda just think they're not interested in me. And so and and and now oh, here's the question I have. Like, don't you think that in today's online world and I don't use online dating at all. Like, 0. I think that's for younger people than me, but, like, I have college age kids. So, don't you think that online dating creates this myth of infinite supply of Yeah. Of men or women? And so that reduces the value of a relationship, but also reduces the value of that romantic tension that builds up when you don't reply. Because if someone doesn't reply, okay. I'm just gonna go over to the next one. No. Because if a guy really likes you, he likes you. I understood if a guy really likes you. Yes. So we're only looking for guys that really like us. If we're just trying to fill up our week because we're 20, that's fine. But if you really want someone who really likes you, that won't in any way affect it. So we we do consultations. After we wrote the book, women inundated us with questions. That's why we wrote a second book. And then private consultations because women wanted specific answers to their situation. So we have clients. They go on a trip. They forget to check their match.com account, and they literally don't reply. And the guy says, are you there? Can I see you? Like, rather than go on to the next girl, like you said, they're hung up on the girl that didn't answer. So so if that's if the guy really likes you. Correct. We only want people who really like us. And and we haven't gone into I mean, you have other rules here. No more than casual kissing on the first date. Don't rush into sex and other rules for intimacy. Don't tell him what to do. I I wanna hold on to that one because that's a little different category. Always end the date first or always end the phone calls first. Here's the question. Let's take that always end the phone calls first. What do you simply wanna what if the guy likes you and you wanna keep talking? You'll talk on the date. We're afraid that you'll talk out. And that the guy will stop liking you? No. That he'll get has there ever been anything in life you've really wanted? I'm sure there is. Yes. And when you found out you couldn't get it maybe a little bit, did you want it just a little bit more? Yeah. Of course. But that's what we're trying to that's what we're selling. Because I'm I'm an unconfident and insecure person. No. No. Everybody's like that. So, basically everybody's like that? You think a confident person would say would would would be drawn in by this? You are so confident. You called us in here. You're leading a podcast. You're charming. You're lovely. What is not you're like everybody. You're better than everybody. No. I I feel unconfident with with women. You're not unconfident at all. I can tell in 2 seconds. You're so not you're like that guy that tries to maybe act like he's maybe not confident, but you're confident. Are you accusing me of being manipulative? The longer you can draw out a courtship and get a guy to pay attention to you without sleeping with you and all that, the or knowing everything about you, the more he will be able to have real feelings for you. So these books are doing you a service. They're getting you to fall in love. Because too much too soon is never good. That's what this society has. Everything is excess and guys get bored and they move on to the other girl. Like, Amal Clooney said no the first time George Clooney asked her well, he asked her up to his room for dinner supposedly. So she said no. Suddenly, there was a woman in the world that said no to George Clooney. We always said he said, I'll never get married again. And he married the one girl that did the rules. That's really interesting. So if I let's say I really like somebody. Okay? I'm single. Let's say I really like somebody, and I text them or I call them. I want them to pick up and talk to me. We will. Just not that second. I mean, you have the gym because you have work, and then you have the gym, and then you see your friends. So it might be 5 hours. Probably your your values have changed a little bit. You said you have a daughter 18 and 15. 15. Yeah. Okay. So now that you have that, think about it in your daughter's view. Do you feel about the rule? How do you feel about a guy texting your daughter? I don't do do you not wanna continue on this? Is this No. No. No. Okay. Okay. I will talk about anything you wanna talk about. Okay. So you have this 18 year old daughter. Do you want her, like, at the dinner table, ignore you hey. What do you want? You know, you ask her about her day, and she's, like, texting a guy. You take her to the movie. She's texting a guy. How do you feel about that? I see your point, but I feel like if what she is doing is blindly following rules, is that gonna be different from who she really is internally? So why What if who she is internally we don't really believe that anybody is anything. We believe you have a lower self and a higher self. You can choose on any given day to do a dumb thing or a smart thing within your power. So your daughter has the ability to say to a guy, you know what? I'm actually talking to my dad. I'm busy, and we'll see each other tomorrow. But what if what if she's not had doesn't talk to any what if she's not talking to anybody, and the guy really likes her, and and this is an opportunity for them to get to know each other a lot better. Great, but they can get to know each other slowly on the dates. Wouldn't you want that with an 18 year old daughter? So your your whole so let let's let's almost try to put her up. You get to know each other just a little slower. And I I I can appreciate that. I agree with that. So so kind of like the this overriding theme is, take things slow because there I'm gonna put it in a biological framework. Certain chemicals relating to love build up over time. Correct. If they kind of spike for a guy, they'll also spike down Correct. Fast. Do you believe that that's true? I mean, that I would know. Yes. So so and your point is It's called courtship. Right. Okay. And so your point is if a girl or a woman tells her whole emotional history on the very first date, and the guy's like, uh-oh. What am I getting myself into? He hasn't yet she hasn't yet, in some sense, bought the emotional or biological capital with that guy for him to be willing to invest it back in the relationship for for her to to be able to do all that. Yeah. Girls are giving it away. Like, online, they're telling their whole life story. Like, I'm divorced. He was a rat. He left me with 2 kids. And they'll they'll say, what I'm looking for is honesty, trust. Like, it's obvious. I've been hurt. I'm damaged goods. Everyone's a little too deep. I don't think Amal Clooney told George everything on the first date. So so, like, you know, again, though, what if what if that's not natural to the woman? Okay. So I brought this in tonight. Okay. So, basically, Heidi Klum, we're all gonna agree, is gorgeous. Right? Yes. Okay. And smart. Right? Let me see what she looks like. Let me see what she's Come on. Yeah. Basically, there's no reason that she should not be happy with somebody. Right. So Heidi Klum is on a dating hiatus. It says in People Magazine, that she was with what's his name, Vito Schnabel. And he was caught kissing someone. I'm sure she spoke to him first. Why do you think she spoke to him first? Because she spoke to the other I don't think she does the rules. And I think that she should. So basically, she must have gone after Vito Schnabel. They're both very high profile people. So when you go out and you're caught kissing somebody else, it's not even like they're regular people. You're gonna get photographed. You're gonna end up in the newspaper. Clearly, the other person's gonna find out. When you're at the level Heidi Klum is, how did you ever get into a situation where the guy you are seeing is caught kissing someone else? So you're saying is, even if she liked him, what should she have done? Like, Heidi Klum's like an exceptional example. It's not like the average woman. We have a theory about that. If nobody will approach you because you're a gorgeous, fabulous model, nobody's gonna wanna be mister gorgeous, fabulous model anyway. So that that's the real insecure, unconfident guy who she wouldn't wanna be with anyway. Right. He's never gonna wanna be with you. Obviously, George Clooney had no problem, and now is a lawyer, isn't she a million things in England or something, title? So either he was okay with it or afraid of it. You don't want someone who can't handle you because We follow this because we have to be able to tell our clients. Sometimes they have to be like half dead to not break rules. Because left to their own devices, they will do everything. That's why you wanna give these books to your daughters. Okay. Looking at it from the perspective of me, a man, I don't want someone to artificially avoid me just because I'm pursuing them. I'd rather They're doing you a favor so you won't get bored. Right? Not saying no. I mean, if a woman says no, you ask her out and she says, absolutely not. I have no interest in you. She has no interest in you. That's not playing hard to get. But if she says, I'd like to, but I'm not free tonight. Like, you ask her for tonight, she's not free, but she's free in a few days. But if I say people are busy. If I say on a Thursday night, hey, what are you doing Saturday night? I'm busy. I'm busy. Now I'm thinking she's busy dating someone that Wouldn't you think it's kinda last minute? I agree with you because you know why I agree with you? It's because if I went out with her on Saturday and had a good time and it was just friends, whatever, okay, I'm probably calling Sunday morning Yeah. And asking her for Monday. There you go. Sunday night. But that's too fast. But she's gonna say no to Monday if she's working with us because she's gonna say, I've gotta slow this train down, or he's gonna get he's gonna get in. He's gonna get bored. He's gonna get out. There has to be some waiting. You're you're like the men whisperer. Like Yeah. Guys have to be trained because they're kind of a little stupid. The men whisper. I never heard of that. That's very cute. I I I still think they're the kind of men that ultimately are gonna take it are a little bit more insecure maybe because they're like, oh, she didn't respond to me. Something must be wrong. I gotta keep pursuing until she responds to me. No. He's like, oh, wow. I asked her for Monday. She said she's busy. What would you you wouldn't think anything. You'd be like, oh, she's busy. Oh, critics of the rules say, well, maybe the guy thinks she doesn't like him. But that is a, you know, fallacy because she is saying yes if you ask in advance. She's just not saying yes to Thursday for Thursday, Friday for Saturday. You know? But if you say Wednesday for Saturday, she's like, sure. Yep. So so so So you'll know. Let's go over some of these other rules just so people get a a bigger picture of would like it. Well, I I actually really I I appreciate a lot of these rules. One is your rule number 1, be a creature like any unlike any other. Maybe describe that for a second because I actually think that's the most powerful rule. You don't tell him you just got fired that day. Your ex boyfriend just you just saw him on Facebook with another girl. All the stuff that's running through your head. You're a creature unlike any other. You are But you're taking it from a negative point of view. I think there's a positive side of it. Cheryl, you're saying not to say those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What we're saying is you even if you had a horrible childhood and whatever, you're wearing hair extensions, you act like you're the prom queen. You pretend you just got off the the, what's that? A jet. The jet, the jet that goes to France. What's it called? Yeah, like I've ever gone on that. The Concorde. The Concorde. The Concorde. I mean, not the Concorde. You pretend you got off of a private jet. And you're like, you know, like you don't have to talk too much. You don't have to convince him that you're interested. So what I appreciate about that rule, because when you're right in the book You're self esteem. You're actually, it's not pretending. You're saying go to the gym. Go eat healthy. Sleep well. You were very big on all that. You know, in all and and you say, what do you do between, Saturday if you just said no to somebody on a Thursday? Don't go to a romantic movie. Go to a comedy. Spend time with friends. So I I think our life is We keep our life. I think there's a layer in this And you're a better friend. How would you like to be the girlfriend that had the plans with her for Monday night who she says, oh my god. I just got a call from James. I'm canceling on you. They lose their friends. And then But there's the guy code where that's always understood though. But it it after a while, you won't like it because she'll have nobody in her life but you. Yeah. Because there's so many people you can cancel on, and then you're gonna be with her. Don't you want her to have outside interest? Don't you don't want a girl that's gonna give their whole life up for you. Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's the what dad has in many relationships. So I'm trying to I'm trying to poke holes in these things. Yeah. You're never gonna win. Oh, pretend everybody did. They've never gotten through. Brian Gumbel, he he was exasperated. Brian who? Gumbel. Oh, Gumbel. On the Today Show. So so okay. Before the podcast started, you said you moved to New Jersey Yes. Because your husband, you're you're now under He gave me a ring. Was in New Jersey. Wasn't moving before that. Right. But why do you let him decide where you're going to live? Because I'm so and he was completely different. The the rules for marriage are the opposite of the rules for dating. When you're dating, you're hard to get. You're a challenge. They have to fly to you, they have to travel to you, we don't meet halfway, we don't pay. I never paid for anything. Like these women that are like, oh my god, I have to pay for something. I'm like, no, you don't. So when you're I agree with that, by the way. Even in today's, you know, society. But when you're married, the man is the boss. You can say it's all crazy. When you when you the problem is this is not a problem. The problem I feel is from a publicity from a PR point of view is that when you say stuff like that, it sounds totally anti feminist. Okay. What I'm saying is Even though I understand what you mean. Honestly, New Jersey is a good place to raise children. Like, I wanted to stay in the city, but it was a very like, my husband thinks long term, and I'm very short term. I like the city, my friends are comfortable, but it's nowhere to, it's no good to raise children. No, but let's get back to when you're married, the man's the boss. He's the boss because he makes financial decisions, he plans, he did the college fund. I'm like, you know, getting painters and getting coffee tables, he's like, we need to have a college fund. Men are more the managers. You know what I'm saying? I'm a feminist. Ellen's a feminist. It's biological. It goes back to Adam and Eve. So That's what I'm wondering is how much is biological in that It's biological. In that in a marriage, in a committed relationship, it's not like, a union of equals. We still each have our biological roles is what you're saying. And and you're saying too, women have powerful roles. You'll pick out the house maybe or find the painters. This but it feels feminist. It feels anti feminist even me saying that. That feels weird. We're equal, but we're different. We have our strength and weaknesses. Like, I'm good with my daughter with x, y, and z, with clothes, with essays, college this, and he's good with her with money. He said, we're paying for college. We're not paying for clothes. Like, that, I would never have said that to her. But let's just let's just put it bluntly too. You guys have sold 3,000,000 copies of your of your series of books. You've made a lot of money. It's not as if you're not moneymakers. We get consultations every day. We have, like, 5 different courses. So you have a whole business. You're very on from where else. Very busy. So potentially, you're there's gonna be points where you're gonna be making more of than your husband. Why Ivana and Donald Trump broke up? Mostly because she became a man. She was running the Plaza Hotel. She was acting we could be like that too. We could be so business oriented and not have time for dinner and say, leave me alone with the pot roast or cooking or your family or literally, we can be monsters, men, monsters. She's right. She's right. But we're not because we know that a marriage is made up of a man and a woman. Ivana became a man and he was like, I've had enough of this. Melania is very feminine. You know, what's her name in between? Marla was in the unit there. That was like nothing. That that didn't count. She doesn't have, like, a brain. But Melania is really knows what she's doing because she's letting the politics in it. We're not brain politics. But but but Obama's wife, Michelle, too. She's very, you know, smart. But she's talking about other people's political candidates. But my point is you have to have a man and a woman in a marriage. You can't have 2 men, 2 business people, because you'll just, like, kill each other. She's right. So on the one hand, the woman can't totally be subsumed into the man's life, so he has to be independent. Right. On the other hand, the woman mostly should agree to the man's major life decisions. Like, we're gonna live in New Jersey, or we're gonna But you could work it out. Travel to Europe or whatever. It's workable. I mean, I think that's that I think that's I see. I don't I don't know. 5050 or 6040. I mean, you both agree on everything. You speak about everything. But she's just saying you can't be there can't be 2 men in the marriage unless there are 2 men in the marriage. I mean, that makes sense. But there has to be somebody that's a little bit more of the home and, oh, let me set the table. Somebody the What if you're busy, though, with your business and you don't wanna set the table? What if you don't mind setting the table? Yeah. But if you don't put family even the most successful CEOs put family first. Anybody that puts business before family is gonna be alone. So you it's not a good energy to have. Where For both men and women. Yeah. I mean, do you never wanna see your kids? No. I love seeing my kids. So then you can't be all business. You know, it's not that my husband's always right. It's that I learned to agree with him. In the beginning, I was kicking and screaming about leaving the city. And then I said, you know what? He's right. You're supposed to raise kids in the suburbs. So it was I, you know, I see the wisdom of his ways. What if he had agreed with you instead? Then they would be in the city. But then you don't know You don't know my husband. Do you think that marriage would've lasted then? Yeah, of course. We think that. But she wouldn't do it, but what she's saying is if he feels very strongly about something, she goes along with it as opposed to kicking it, screaming. But I don't know exclusive. It's not like a dictatorship. Right, but what if you feel more strongly no matter what? What did you guys She was in a few areas and she wanted. Push on. Down. My daughter needed, my daughter needed a tutor for the SAT. She's very creative. She writes very well, but her SAT scores could be bumped up. And he was like, that's ridiculous. But our whole town, the whole town of Livingston was using tutors since they were 2. So I said, let's get a tutor, you know, just for a short time. And it it really made her scores go up. So he Very exciting. Yeah. And your your husband was against that? He was against he doesn't like the artificialness of tutors, but he didn't understand the whole town is doing it. And then she needed some plastic surgery. I don't wanna go into details. And he was like, this is ridiculous. It's the Kardashians. I said, it's not the Kardashians. It's very, her back would have been, you know, just say what it is, whatever, a breast reduction. Not for me, of course. And he was like kicking us through. He says, there's Kardashians. We don't do this. And I said, listen. And I got the facts. I looked up Ariel Winter from Modern Family and the other one. And he was like, you're right. So, yeah, so it's not a dictatorship, but I do try to listen to his point of view. But that was also a situation regarding kids where I think that's also within the more the domain of the mom. He didn't wanna paint. I wanted to paint. Again, probably more the domain of the mom. With business, he's my best friend. It's like he, you know, preps me for interviews. He said, make sure you say this, da da da. So you think Make sure you say Oprah. Because you built up in the right way, that allows you to become more partners. Yes. But we've seen, like, the housewives' marriages dissolve Yeah. Because they're like, I don't have time for your dinner. I don't have time for your stepmomix. They're my publicist. They're a makeup person. They have no No time for their husband. Yeah. And then they then they they kind of aren't married anymore. Okay. So that's the rules for marriage. I wanna get back to the rules for dating. Yeah. Don't tell him what to do. So when you're dating, what if you wanna play ping pong and he wants to go to a baseball game? No. We mean don't tell him what to major in. Don't say, I think you're making a mistake. You should go to law school. He doesn't wanna go to law school. He doesn't even wanna finish college. Maybe that's not a good one to point at, but he doesn't he wants to do something else. About college right before here. Maybe he doesn't wanna go to college. You marry him without going to college. Don't force him to go to don't make him into somebody else. Don't? They don't like that. Yeah. Don't, like, try to patch him with his relationship with his father. You know? You're right. Mind your own business. Mind your own business. Then go to college. Yeah. So if you so if you still so this all assumes you still like him despite these things that you disagree with. Just want more whatever. You wish he'd go to graduate school. You want more money. You want him to get along with his father. You want you want you want this from him. You gotta walk you gotta leave it alone. It's none of your business. We keep assuming this is women trying to court men, but I kind of see also a lot of this happens in reverse in the sense that if a man pursues a woman too quickly, she'll learn it. She'll lose interest. She'll say, oh, this is going too fast for me. If she if she likes him, she won't think that. Yeah? Yeah. If George Clooney was courting me, I'd have a problem with that. So if he was just like But I would have to slow it down. As a rules girl, I would say, I can't see you Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Sorry, George. I can only see you Saturday. Because because and and and you have no problem with the fact that even though everything inside you might wanna say Correct. You know, even though he's calling on a Friday night, can I see you tomorrow morning or tomorrow night, even though you really wanna say yes this? We've done this. We've counseled others in it. It's our blood. Yep. It's like you're saying, what if you feel like eating cake for breakfast? It's like, is that a health you know, what we wanna do is things. Jump off the building. I don't know. You can't do certain things. Oh my god. You're getting you're getting me on every possible criticism. You've been through this too much for 20 years. Women call the guys children. They call his mother. They call the secretary. They buy 2 tickets for a game. They they redecorate a plane. Too much. They're very aggressive. I don't know if you know single women. They're incredibly aggressive. Meet you, and they'd be like, oh, you have a daughter 18? Oh, does she like Prada? Because you know Oh, no. No. Mars? I have 2 extra tickets. Yeah. And you'd be No one's offered my my daughters those tickets. So I'm meeting the wrong way. Women are very aggressive. You haven't found that? I guess I have with some of them. And you probably run the other way. That's why you don't even have an experience of it because you're just so turned off that you haven't even had it really happened. Would you want a girl that asked you out? Yeah. Yeah. You say that them. Yeah. Well, if If I like them. Right. But you would like them. Ask them out. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. So it's a new point. So but then if you ask somebody out, I don't know, you and they say no, or they say they say yes, and you go out, and you wanna go out the next day, and then they say no. Then I feel Because you're not asking for the right date. You're not asking for the right date. Yeah. But then you'd feel I don't know that. I don't know. They're playing around. This is setting the stage of the rules courtship. So then you'd they'd say no, but they'd say it really nicely. And then you'd maybe think, oh, god. She doesn't like me. So then you you might call your best friend who might say, ask her again. And you think, nah. And then you think I swear to god, I think she's not interested in me Okay. If she says no. But you'd ask her again. I don't know if I would. I would only Even if she was if she wasn't that big. Asking last night? I'm thinking I'm thinking For tomorrow? I think I'm thinking about 10 years ago. I think I was dating someone who was totally obsessed with the rules now that I'm thinking about it. Okay. And, all these rules she was following. And now that I'm How do you know that? Because I'm I'm seeing the rules in front of me. But when you asked her for Wednesday for Saturday, did she say yes? She said no. When I asked from Thursday to Saturday, she said no. Right. And, and then I automatically assumed she was not interested or that she was dating somebody else, which is a rule of mine. Don't date anybody who's potentially dating someone else. Right. And so, and then it took a few days. It took past the weekend, and then she wrote me and said, you know, what happened? You disappeared. And I'm like, well, you said no. Well, first of all, rules girls don't really say no. Sometimes they take our book too seriously. You say, I'm oh, wow. Gosh. I'm so sorry. I already have plans. I'd like to, but I have plans. Yeah. So, like, basically, you're saying she didn't say I like to, but I have plans? No isn't the answer. It's I'm sorry. Say that I'd like to. Yeah. She just said she was busy. That's what the rules were. Then when she came back and said, where were you? Then what happened? Then we started dating, but then it ended fairly quickly. How did it end? Who ended it? She she ended it, and then so and and so I said fine. I always assume people are being completely honest. And then a week later, she said, oh, we were just getting started. What happened? Because I didn't respond to her for that week. So I think she was going back and forth. She doesn't sound like a rules girl. Yeah. She had the lecture. She was just maybe a rule girl. Said I'd like to, but I'm I already have plans. And then you would have figured out, okay, I'll my husband called Monday for Saturday every week. But he he had read the rules. He knew that. We were writing the book when I was dating him. Oh. Because it's, like, 22 years, 23 years ago. And I didn't even tell him I said I was a writer, and I didn't tell him how to do it. I said it was top secret. Oh, yeah. Good for you because otherwise you would have The mystery. Done your the mystery. Yeah. So so how much do you I you know, and I've seen this. I it's funny. I went on a date once. Well, on the very first date, she basically ran through her entire medical history, and I really liked her. I thought she was really quirky and interesting and funny. Her medical history? Well, like, this happened to her at 18, then she really hates this person, then, she has to take these drugs for depression. Oh my god. No. And so so I went to my therapist with this, and my therapist said, absolutely not. Like like, that is there's something wrong if she's saying too much so quickly. So and, See, women were going to therapists and then going on dates and acting like it was a therapy session. And we said, no more. You can go to therapy if you want, preferably a rules therapist, you know, somebody that believes in habits and stress. I think therapists now agree with the rules. I think in the very beginning, we said, don't tell your rule your therapist about the rules because we thought therapists That's one of your rules. Don't tell your therapist about the rules. Away. We imagine Lots of therapists wrote us and say they agree because women had no boundaries. They were just, like, saying, like, this woman, everything. You can't do this with guys. You can't tell them everything is not. A date is in therapy. So so, how did you come up with this stuff? Like, what was going on in your lives where you messed up that you then had to develop these worlds? So much. We I was Like, is it like you were born knowing, I'm gonna No. I got them from a girl. I got them from a friend of a friend. Uh-huh. But we instinctively knew the order of things because she has an older brother and I have 2 older brothers. And my brother actually does look like George Clooney. And girls would call the house constantly. And he was bored beyond belief. And he ended up marrying somebody that he pursued. I thought well, so I thought they were actually I thought I was like everybody else. I thought, that's ridiculous. You can't ask a guy out. But any time I did anything that sort of wavered or a friend did, it didn't end well. And I thought, wow, maybe there really is something to this because I thought it seemed a little silly. It was like 19, whatever, 80. And I thought every I went to college. I graduated from NYU with a degree in accounting. I didn't know why I couldn't do things. And a lot of my friends felt the same way. And then there was a girl saying, no, no, no, no. You've gotta cave mandate. You've gotta go back. Gotta do the rules. I was like, what rules? That sounds really silly. And I watched her and I remember what happened. I went to a bar restaurant with her and all these guys were talking to us and she, in the middle said, alright, I've got to get going. She walked over somewhere else. I stayed and talked to them. 1 of them said to me, what's her name? And the next day, she calls me, did you get my name out? That guy called me. And I was like, he called you didn't even talk to him. And I was like, oh my god. She's right. She just kind of was like, alright. Nice chatting. And she walked away. And I thought, well, that's a little she didn't even stay and talk. And that's who the guy called. Because she liked her look. And because she also walked away a little bit. Well well, do you think the same like, there's obviously there's books like The Game by Neil Strauss, which talks about Sure. How guys should, quote unquote, neg. No. But they're they're saying treat men treat women badly, say things to get them to think that they're not fat or they're fat or we're we're not we're not playing with anybody's heads for a bit. The same rules, though, that you're suggesting, which is They don't. Guys won't. They don't. They only do that if they don't like you. Yeah. Uh-huh. First of all, guys don't even buy relationship books. Not really. They really don't. They did not get a podcast. You know, like you, they have a podcast they wanna get knowledgeable. But every guy I know was reading Bill Gates or some sports thing. My brother's like because one of the biggest collectors of Roberto Clemente memorabilia. I mean, they are not in the relationship set. The only people in the relationship text at a bookstore are women. Yeah. Unless they're writing a term paper on it. Like, they're not buying these books. So so what should guys do? Guys catch some of the meeting women. Girls that they're attracted to. And treat them nicely, open their car door, send them flowers on their you know, just nicely. Remember their birthday. Yeah. So it makes it so easy for guys and hard for women. It is that way. Yeah. Why is it so hard for women? Well, because it's hard for women when you're dating. But when you're married, we say that they kinda switch around, and the guy gets to lead. And so it's easier for men to be married maybe because they sort of get to maybe rule the roost a little more, but it's harder when they're dating for the women. Let's stop to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Maybe this is wrong, or maybe this is right. No. Harder than yeah. Seems like short term, it's easier for women because women have a vagina. So if if a woman is in a bar and she's the only and and and she's not gonna have a problem meeting a guy in that bar. She could choose any guy in the bar pretty much who's single. No. Maybe to sleep with her that night, but not too bad. Saying short term. That's not too bad. Short term. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Correct. Saying is Correct. We're into long term. Long term, men have to you know, like the like and, again, I'm gonna get to the biology. So oxytocin is this neurochemical that women release when they're in labor because it reduces the pain of labor. It also turns out that women feel oxytocin during sex all the time, but men only feel men only have an oxytocin spike during sex when they're in love. So Interesting. I don't know how they quite measure that, but that's the studies show. So that seems to be related to this is that somehow men have to be they're they're you have to give them time for this neurochemical suit to be built. Way. We were on Sally, Jesse, Raphael with, like, mister universe, like, 15 years ago, whatever it was. And somebody got up on this. Everybody was screaming at us. People ripped, this guy ripped up a book. What did they say? Because maybe they'll have better critiques than I would write. A girl can ask a guy, yeah. Why can't a girl make the first move? And Mr. Universe is on the stage with us when I was, and there was like all these single girls, and I, and they were like, Forget it. You like you'll sleep with her. Maybe you'll date her for a few years, but you really like the one in the middle. And the one in the middle, he likes her, but you're saying she'll blow it if she doesn't fall in the middle. Exactly. Yeah. If she sleeps with him that night. Then then she's like the girl on the road. A little bit. She has a chance because he likes something. I've heard stories where you sleep with a guy too soon, but as long as you emotionally don't, like, girl do Act wingy. With no call. You can get away with it sometimes. The physical is not even as bad as the emotional. But I feel like I like it when a girl feels clingy to me. You like it? I I like it when a girl feels clingy. Stage of the relationship? That, but you're not ready. Like the girl. I want her I want her to feel clingy right away. I don't wanna have to pursue. You get you think that, but you probably wouldn't like it. Yeah? Yeah. Long term. Because you wanna go wonder what she's doing when she's not texting you. But that's scary to me. Maybe because I I'm insecure. Well, we can do a childhood. We do when we do consultations, we do a childhood and dating history. Okay. Tell me. So Let's do it. What kind of like, were your parents happily married? Or what was I mean, they were married. It's hard to say happily. Did your father pursue your mom? Or do you know? I don't know, actually. I never asked them. Are they still married? No. My dad's dead. But they stayed married the whole time. Do you know how they met? They met. They were they were coworkers and and in a computer software company. So she was one of the few With women. At that time, you know, in the sixties. It sounds like he liked her. I get the feeling that he probably liked her. And he was but here's the thing. He was recovering from a bad marriage. And so I think maybe he went in right into something that he felt was a little easier for him. Okay. So he was kinda coming out of crisis rather than maybe Oh. A normal not normal, but, like, a different situation where he had his choices. Now were they close to both were both of them close to you? Or Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not yes and no. I mean, I grew up in the seventies, so parents weren't really close to their kids as they did. You anything about dating? 0. See, this is what we're finding. Like, we are the surrogate mothers. The only advice my is my mom once told me because don't overly pursue. Don't overly. Oh, so maybe your dad overly pursued her. I think there was my mom felt this one woman was bad for me when I was 18. Oh, so she saw you overly pursue her? Yeah. And did you get hurt by this woman? No. Ultimately, we ended up I I we ended up together for 3 years, and I wanted to end it really badly. And why was that? She wanted to get married. I was only 21, so I couldn't do it. But what did what do you mean by overly pursue? What did you do that was extra? I mean, I would just wanted to spend every minute with her. So you got to spend every minute with her. And then after 3 years, she wanted to get married, and then you didn't. Right. Do you think that if she had maybe pulled back a little, or you would there was no way you were getting married at 21? Well, I don't know. I I can't really say that. Maybe she was all in, and then you got a little bored. And then after 3 years, you were like, yeah. No. I'm not getting married. So you saw her all the time? Yeah. Was it boring? We would have said to you guys. Together. Was it boring? Well then I mean, the age of 19. We were married. See, we would have said no. Don't say that to her. We were at London because on a book tour, and all the women there, they live with guys for 5 years. None of them get married. None of the men wanna get married. It is the biggest killer of marriage is living together. Unless you're living the kids do it today. They do. They they live together. They're planning to get married. Yeah. And then if it doesn't if something terrible happens, but the the plan is we're we're not just living together. We're gonna get married. So you lived with her just to hang out, live. 19 years old. Yeah. Yeah. She should've known. That's not good for her. And then look what happened. It ended. You know what? She moved in with me. I I was already at that point. It was only 1 year in. She moved in with me, and I didn't I didn't want her to. Oh, say, oh, next. She moved in. So you don't wanna cling to your body. You don't she moved it. That's aggressive. That's what you're saying. So then yeah. So you're saying very aggressive. You're so then you're just like every you're just a guy that just Yeah. So do you likes to be here in a little bit. Planted in your head that you shouldn't be overly aggressive. That's why you're, like, not so Well, but I am overly aggressive, I think, now. Like, I think I think I've assumed end up again you're gonna be just like George Clooney. Yes. You're gonna ask a 1000000 girls a 1000000 questions. What do you think about this? What about do you like apples? A 1000000 questions. Girls are gonna fall in love with you because you're interesting, and you're like a little bit that other part of the brain with relationships, and you're gonna lose interest and go on to the next one. You're gonna end up with the girl who was like, I don't really think I liked him right away. That's who you're gonna end up. We're definitely not somebody that's gonna move in. Do you think those relationships last when the girl doesn't really like the guy that was pregnant? Does the best relationship. A girl A girl can decide to like, can fall in love slowly, but a guy is like yes or no. Don't you know who you like right away? Yeah. I do it right away. You do right away. And so I can't understand it when they don't know right away. Girls just don't know right away. Because they're just We're different. There's other things. There's stability. So that's we like a guy right away. Yeah. You have to be more careful too. There's a biological reason why you have to be more careful. Right. Because you could only use your egg for 9 month periods, and guys could just go everywhere. That's a big part of our book. Like, Michael Douglas could have kids at 65, but Kathleen Zeta Jones can't. So we are big on not wasting time. So these women that are in 5 year relationships, that that doesn't exist in the rules world. We date a guy for 9 months to a year, and then that's it. Mary says that you are a minimalist. She sent me articles, and I read it. So basically, what I'm gonna tell you was where the rules is like you have 15 things that people should need. We're like number 16. Girls need a 16 thing called the rules. And they should bring that with them in their 15 minimalist things because you waste so much time dating guys who don't like you or don't really care about you or treasure you. You're hoping maybe they will one day. They'll change your mind. A guy, even though you're not the girl in the middle that he liked, you're the girl on the left, that you're funnier, you have a master's degree, you're good, you'll pay for him for things, you're generous. He'll still want the girl in the middle. He'll dump you one day for the girl in the middle. Okay. So Don't waste time. So so let's take an example of the guy who's pursuing a girl, asks her out quite a bit, and she's she's backing off. She's saying, no. No. No. No. No. How does the guy know that she's just not she's not maybe she's being nice. Maybe she's, like, saying, you know, oh, let's hang out as friends, or and then she hangs out every day. We as the okay. So the rules are I once had a guy follow me around at a bookstore, a book signing a 1000000 years ago. And he was like, my a girl didn't go out with me because I thought he was gonna kill me. So it ends up and I finally said to him, what did you do? And he said, well, I I called her a I've called her every week, and she keeps saying no. She's doing your book. I said, she's not doing my book. She doesn't like you. So, basically Okay. What about a situation, though? So here's a a situation I've been in where I like the girl. She says, I don't know. Let's let's see. But then all the time, she's calling and or wants to hang out or stop by, but it's always like a let's see. So how do I interpret that? I'm not saying this is happening now, but this has happened in the past. Let's see what? Are you asking her her out on Saturday night dates? Yeah. Monday dates? And she says, let's say about what? And she doesn't really respond to that. She'll say no. Dates with you. Right. She just wants to hang out with you. But, like, literally, I'll be sitting in in I would have been sitting in my home at, like, 8 PM, and she'll call up and say, what are you doing? And she wants to hang out. So she doesn't like it. She just wants to be with somebody interesting. Yeah. But she doesn't like you romantically. And but you're saying though that could still be won over because women can Perhaps, Yes. We have seen women say, you know, I didn't really like him at first, but now I do. Sort of like when Harry when Harry met Sally, that kind of thing. Like, he annoyed her for years, and then I don't think that we look like Harry. No. No. We're saying we're saying don't go but don't waste years of your life. You know? 9 months and then next. Right? Yeah. You can't waste that. What did you dare to say? Don't waste that. Yeah. Don't waste years of your life. Yeah. So, like, don't even hang out at all. No. Don't hang out. Hours. Don't hang out. So, but but if you do think it's someone who's who's potent you're saying someone a woman can be men know, but women can be won over. A little bit, but she should like you a little bit. She likes Although somebody We've had girls say I didn't like them at all, and then they do turn around. So They like like, this person at this time liked enough that she was calling constantly. Like, literally Yeah. But she was calling she wasn't going on dates. She was calling you last minute. She wasn't treating you well. That's not what you want. You want a girl who maybe didn't like you, goes on dates with you, and then is like, wow. Or that has cancer. Not as a cancer scare, but has something happened and then you're really she sees who you are as a true person, and she starts to fall for you because you, after all, are a nice guy. So that can't happen the other way around. Anyone listening to this, women, you cannot be there for a guy and respond to him right away and help him through his test crisis at school or when he got fired from his job and be the 1st person to call him back and then he'll like you. He'll still like who he liked. But I still wanna know how does a how does a man how does a man work with this? How does a man do this and respond to this? Well, first of all, where do you meet women? I don't really. I mean, I people listen to this podcast and and read my books and stuff, and so I do love both my people. Like your mind or this or that, but this is not romantic. I would, if I were you, go on j date or No. No. I can't. I hate those. Okay. Well, let me ask let me ask you why. Hated too, but we had to meet somebody. But let me ask you let me say this. It's because, again, I think those online dating applications create this myth in the brain of infinite supply. It's not true. Listen, we hated all this stuff. It was like going to the dentist, but I needed a husband. She knew us. It's like we had to go to 3 singles events a week. We just made up 3 because it was like every other day. And we went to Jewish singles dances. And now there's online dating. Back when I was dating, it was New York Magazine. You put me at it. Not necessarily Jewish, just whatever. Or whatever, anything. So what I'm saying is it doesn't matter if you like it or you don't like it. You have to go if you wanna meet somebody because I feel like you're just meeting women who want to play ask you this. Do you wanna meet someone? Yeah. You really do? I do. I will say the problem I have is I feel like if there's so many choices, it just it seems to reduce the value. Let me tell you something. When I was in my twenties, I went to the matzo ball And I'm 49. Okay. I went to the matzo ball dance. Do you know what that is? It was like in the city. It was like New Year's Eve or Christmas Eve. There were a 1,000 people there. So everybody that says all online dating, there's endless possibilities. There were endless possibilities then. And that night, I met absolutely no guy. 1,000 people, like 800 men, nobody. The night I met my husband at a Jewish singles dance, there were like 10 men and 30 women. I looked inside and I thought I'm gonna kill myself because I couldn't believe the bad ratio. But my husband walked right up to me. So what I'm saying is it's not a numbers game. It's not a nothing game. It's you just show up or you go online and you play the game. You just have to be in it to win it. You just have to. So you're not trying at all, but you wanna meet someone? No. I try. I mean, I How do you try? Look. I'm just gonna be straight out. Like, I I I'm out there. So I I write a lot. I do this podcast. I do other things. So I know a lot of people through my Okay. So you have a way of meeting. Through my body. Everybody does like you. Okay. So go on. So so if I see somebody I like, then I might ask them out. That's pretty random. That's not gonna happen every day. No. But maybe that's Right. Maybe that's the but you're not really in a rush. You have daughters. You're enjoying your life. Are you desperate to I mean, it sounds like you are I'm not desperate, but I kind of are enjoying. He prefers to be in a relationship. To be in a relationship. Why don't you try online dating? Ugh. I'm I'm stressed. Okay. Think about it. I gotta think about all these things. Think about it. I wanna criticize you guys. Hold on a second. Let's let's let's find some of your other rules. But, actually, I kind of agree with I I really think the bottom line with your rules is is self respect. Take time for yourself. Build yourself up so that, you know, Warren Buffett I'm gonna quote Warren Buffett here. He once said said, you know, the best way, the best way to be loved is to be lovable. And what you're saying in the rules, ultimately, is a woman should focus on being lovable for herself and then other guy then and not worry about whether the guy is overly, you know, pursuing or whatever. Focus on herself so that she becomes you know, she builds her value and and then rises in the market. So in marketplace I'm gonna call. She does I'm gonna call you. She doesn't say when. She's just like because she's a creature unlike any other. So He either likes me or he doesn't. Again, it's, like, almost this economics approach, which is that she's reducing the supply of herself, and so his demand will go up. Yes. The value of of their relationship will go up. Correct. Very good. And and I feel like the criticism you've got is because your your rules are so, direct. They almost sound either manipulative Correct. Or Yeah. Sexist. Right. But I can see from talking to you that's obviously not the case. They do all sound manipulative. Like, don't open up too fast. What if the woman wants to open up too fast? You're saying don't do it because of how the man will react as opposed to It doesn't work. It it doesn't work. But you're but you're not saying, don't open too up too fast because in general, people shouldn't open up so fast to to straighten up. We're not telling him to go. You said you went to Harvard if you didn't. We're just saying go slow on opening up because, like you said, it works out better. Your therapist told you. She's forget it. She opened up too fast. She sounds cuckoo. So so what about, like like, what's happened in college lately with you know, there's a whole kind of, I don't know what you call it. Like, yeah, hookup culture. Like, what's what's that all about? How does that affect or or do are people kinda skipping the rules for 4 of those 4 years? Or think so. Well, there are girls who call us who call. Who calls in charge. You know, just girls who do the need the rules know who they are. They're not okay when they sleep with a guy and he doesn't call. They may they may say, yeah. No. It's okay. But it's not okay. Or they decipher his they we've had consultations where girls can't don't don't know what kind of emoticon. Do I send a smiley face? Or do I say talk to you later? Or do I say thank you? They're they're they're a little nutty with the boys. They know who they are. They don't they just feel maybe they know what they're doing, but they don't think they know what they're doing. Those girls need the rules. Some girls are fine. They're like, I slept with a guy. Like, whatever. He didn't call me. Like, I don't care. Like, I'll figure it all out when I'm 25. They shouldn't do it. It's for those who need it. We wrote it down thinking it would stop the questions because somehow, Sherry's friends got a hold of me and knew that I knew them, and I was getting calls from people in the city. So we were like, you know, we'll write them down rule by rule, and then we'll never have to talk to them again. And, of course, it didn't happen like that. Everyone had more questions, and there was a second book. So so It was very grassroots. What happened? So the so so you wrote these down. Did you get a book deal in the beginning or at the after you wrote them down? We wrote down, a few chapters. We called we I said to her, we should write this down because it's like enough already. Everyone's I said someone from the city called me. I have kids. It's enough already. She used my apartment in the city, and we talked, and I would write and write and write. And then But before that, I said that to her, you know, we really should write this down, and then everybody will just leave us alone. Rule by rule, it'll be out there. Leave us alone. And then right after we wrote the book, we which we got accepted, we got a book deal. And then when it came out, we somehow I decided that people would have questions or someone said something. I ended up putting in a phone number in the back of the book and a PO box. We got a zillion letters, a 1000000 calls. So one day I said, you know what? 2 girls called at the same time, and I was busy. I was like, maybe we should make a support group, and they could call each other. And she had done her camp newsletter. The what was it called? So she was like, let's go do the rules news. So we did an old fashioned rules news. We'd say, do you wanna be stories. Do you wanna be a contact in your state? We'd have contacts. Like, stop making this. Out. Yeah. Before the Internet. So you did kinda like direct marketing of this newsletter? No. Only people that had written to that had wrote read the book and wrote and wrote in a question and said, hi. I loved your book, but I and a quick so so many girls wrote, but I'm in a long distance relationship that we said, you know what? We need to write a second book. There are a lot of gay people wrote in. We're gonna put in gay. We're gonna put in long distance. Getting back an x. A million situations. And we then we had we sold the 7th book. Dating celebrities. And then there was a second book, and then there was a third book. Then people started getting married, and they needed a marriage book because they were like, what do I do now? Do I call him? He's my husband. Can I call him? It just became a whole thing. We really started it to just stop everybody from asking us questions and leave us alone, and it was anything but that. And then we'd be so Were you surprised by the success of the first book? Surprised. We didn't want it. I actually didn't want it. I don't like to be on TV. I barely wanted to do this. But you made good money in your alley people. I didn't want to. I don't I'm an introvert. I don't wanna do these things. I wanna think my thoughts, write them down, and leave me alone. We knew that it worked because every time we told a girl to do the rules, the guy, you know, proposed or whatever, but we had no idea it was gonna become a a best international. I would have never believed it. I would have been like, me on TV? I don't think so. Never. Yeah. I mean, literally, women were sitting on the beach in the Hamptons in support groups, like, sitting in a circle with the book, asking each other questions. Once, there was this woman. She was dating a guy in in Ireland, and she was gonna fly to him, and she called our hotline. Ellen picked up the call. She was at her beach club, her pool club. She literally left the pool, called the woman back And said don't fly with him. She canceled the flight to Ireland. And then he she married him. Yeah. Because if you're flying to him, forget it. He's gonna think you're, I mean, a doormat. Wow. They have to travel to you. And even Oprah said that. We were on Oprah's show, and, of course, they were naysayers. And Oprah said, nope. I was in a long distance relationship. I hopped on the plane, and it was a disaster. So Oprah totally agreed with everything. And now we actually, we have people, we have a whole website thing going on and we have dating coaches that they, Sherry was like, maybe other people wanna do what we do. And I was like, I don't really think, do you think anybody would? She So we trained them. We wrote it, she wrote up a course. We wrote it together, and we have, like, a 100 people. We train them to do consultations like we do. Get the childhood. Get the dating history. We feel like there's enough work for everyone there. We're never we try to support, like, help them get clients because there's so many women. For everybody. There's enough for everybody to have a job. So so you did the books. Then you created kind of this mini empire. Yeah. To without ever planning to. It happened to us. This was not This was not something I ever planned ever. That's on such an important topic. Like, there's there's a saying in the, let's call it information product business. There's a saying called get paid, get laid, lose weight. So those three things, if you offer, you could build a business around them. So get paid is obviously, like, you know Business. Some way to make money. Get laid. It's usually referring to, teaching men the pickup game. Right. But but in your case, it's teaching women the rules, and lose weight, obviously, is more for women. And that's a multibillion dollar basis. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And we're a little bit sex. Mhmm. Because we're teaching you to hold back. And when you have sex, it's with the right person, and it's meaningful and worth it's good. Is there any of the criticism along the way that you had a real hard time thinking about or dealing with? Never. You were just confident right away that these were the roles. I just I just didn't want it to I I it's so funny because I'm I'm like anti feminist. I didn't want this to happen at all. So it was so funny that it happened to me because my intention was I never wanna do any of this. So no. Never How fast would you say yes to a wedding for or should a woman say yes to a wedding proposal? We really think it should be, like, 9 months to a year. What if it's, like, 3 months? We think it's too soon. You don't have a chance. Like, they can be covering up, like, lawsuits, financial ruin. Crazy. We had a client. Now she's with her good husband because we work. But before us, she said the guy duped her. He, like, had no money. 0. Yeah. Kevin O'Leary, who's on Shark Tank, he was once on my podcast. He had written a book on relationships, and that's why he came on my podcast. You wouldn't think he would write a book on relationships with he said you need to do 3 years of financial due diligence on your potential wife before you marry her. Alright. Perhaps. Yeah. We're not, like, going on a date saying, marry me. We're not gold diggers. Like, that was, you know, a fallacy about the rules that we're looking for big rings. That's not true at all. We really just want nice guys. We had we gave a seminar once, and some girls came in, and they were like, oh, so do you teach us how to get, like, a rich guy? And I was like, you're at the wrong seminar. No. It's for love. Not rich. Well, it seems like what you're doing is you're finding the guys that you kind of like who like you. And even though some of these techniques seem somewhat manipulative, like, don't accept a Saturday night date after Wednesday I still don't say that's manipulative. Oh, but okay. It's just manipulative in the sense that maybe you'd wanna say yes on a Thursday. But after the first date, he should be wanting to be with you on Monday. He should be calling you to try to make sure you're free because he likes you so, so much. Alright. And you don't wanna be with anybody but that. Even if you you know what I'm saying? I agree with that. I it's funny because the way it's worded and the way it's all presented, and I think kind of your the decades of criticism that have overlaid it does make it feel manipulative. But what you're really saying is you don't wanna be with somebody who doesn't respect you doing these things. You guys are sort of the the beginnings of modern dating, I feel. Like, the the roles were so, important to an entire generation of, you know, as I was going through my thirties and and so on and twenties, it's important it was important to me. Many people many women I I I was dating were following the rules, were reading your books. I have some more questions, and you know what? My therapist even gave me questions. She's really great too. Okay. And they were all and but but she didn't ask as many questions as I thought. One question I don't understand. Are there any new rules relating to sexual consent in today's world? I don't even know I'm not even quite sure what she means. I think what she means is these stories about people that get blacked out drunk and a guy has sex with them and they didn't give consent. That's rape. There are no new rules. It was rape a 1000000 years ago. It's rape now. And for men out there, when you say what what would you tell men to do, I would say for girls blacked out at a party, don't have sex with her, and don't have your friend have sex with her. That's my rule for girls. Take off. We say either don't drink or have one drink. You have to control yourself. Yeah. But if you don't, guys don't take advantage. Yeah. Don't take advantage of a girl. I think the real secret to what you 2 have done with the rules and with all the follow-up books is to really say to women, put the center of gravity back on yourself. Don't outsource your self esteem to a guy or or an idea like marriage or whatever. So and here are some guidelines for how you could they they if you stick to this, just like if you stick to a diet, it might be uncomfortable, and they might just be guidelines. But if you stick to them pretty closely, you will find that center of self esteem moved back to you. And Yeah. I think I think people should view these books as that and put it in that context as opposed to trying to figure out, is this, like, the game, or is this some sort of a manipulative strategy? It's not a game. Because it's not manipulative. Because I could see how if you say, don't say yes if they ask you after Thursday, it's not because you're trying to coerce them to love you, although that might be as an ancillary side effect to this. Correct. Yes. You're trying to say, look. Have self respect for yourself. And it's like you said. You do one of you with the guy who just saw you on set, and now you waited till Thursday. Yeah. Right. Probably is not a good guy for you. Because I think I think it's hard to think, oh, well, he's good in every other way. If only he would have just asked me out on Yeah. Well, you never even existed. If only he remembered, like, no. You want the guy who really likes you like that. Want just really just he's just like, wow. I really wanna see her. Well, how do you convince somebody who's like, oh my gosh. I love this person in every way, but he's just not he just wants me to fly to Ireland, or he wants me He doesn't like you enough. He just wants you to fly to Ireland. Convince the girl to so intellectually, she understands that. They're so excited. They're like, hi, Ellen and Sherry. We got I met this guy. He's very busy. He's very wealthy. So what he did is he had a plane come get me. We're like, nope. We don't like it. We don't care. We got to have him be with a guy with less money who flew to you. Because at some level, he has to find someone to walk his dog. The one that flies to you is gonna be there when you're having, like, surgery. The guy that's sending you tickets so that you come to him is gonna be like that in the marriage. It's gonna be if he if you get married. You. It's gonna be very much like my secretary will see you at the hospital when you're having the babies. You know what I'm saying? It's not gonna be that I've been doing this so long. Why would a girl think a guy she should go visit a guy? Well, maybe the guy's busy. Well, then you're busy? Yeah. Isn't she busy? I don't know. Whether you're busy or not, you should have busy. I think everybody knows the guy should visit the girl at some level. We actually say in the three times, but because we knew that nobody would really do it 3 times, but at least twice, because he should show some interest. Otherwise He should be inconvenienced. He should make the effort. Otherwise or or you don't you also don't want the guy that's and when he does visit you, you're not a hotel. He has to stay in a play. Like, you don't wanna be you don't want guys coming in New York to visit you because they've never been to New York. You want them to wanna see you. So so let's say, girl's going out with a guy. It's going well. Seems like it's going well in every way. They're not living together, but guy seems nice. Girl seems nice. They both seem into each other. When and let's say the woman wants to get married. When is the right time when when's the border where she has to think, oh, this guy is never going to get married? It depends on their age. If they're 22, you know, it could be, like, 3 years, 4 years. But if they're 20 if they're 35 Should be within a year. Not 2 I mean, she's, like, the stricter one. I'm, like, 2 years. But, you know, one and a half years? It's a gradual thing. I mean, they say exclusive after a few months. Then I love you. You see what they give you for the birthday. And we're not gold diggers, but we wanna see, do they remember our birthday? And are they giving us like see, they, guys give trips sometimes for birthdays, and we don't like that because he gets sex. He goes to Aruba. We want like something substantial, like it doesn't have to be expensive, but even a beautiful poem. But then let's say it's 9 months to a year and he hasn't proposed or talked about the future. Just say, you know, I've enjoyed James, I've enjoyed these 9 months together, but I was just wondering where this is going. And then he'll say, hopefully, oh, I wanted to, you know, have a future with you. I was gonna propose. I was gonna surprise you. But then on the negative side, he could say, future, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm just, like, having fun. We're having fun. Like, what what are you talking about? Then she should end it. But then she said then there's an in between where the guy says, you know, I have to think about it. My parents are divorced, or I you know, I wanna go I'd go at my own pace, but things are really good now. But just say to him like, okay. If he doesn't say yes, if he says, I'm not sure or no, just say, well, why don't you think about it and call me when you're ready? I am not dating a guy while he figures it out. Or you could say things like, you know, I don't know. I mean, there's some things I don't like about you, and I was hoping they would change and A bet. But if he wants to live if he insists on living together, and they're not young, but, like, 35, 40, and he wants to live with you, we're not like a car that you test drive. Like, you've already seen me brush my teeth. You know, this whole thing that I have to live with you. We've gone, like, on a overnight. You've seen me brush my teeth. You know that I sleep on this side. Whatever. It's like, what do you have to know? I didn't live with my husband. We were dating for 9 months. He proposed on my birthday. We got married 3 months later. What is he for me to know? Like, I'm not an ex murderer. This is such a joke that people make this stuff up. Well, you were he was almost 40, though. Yeah. He was 30 9 or 30. Yeah. But still Well, no. Because he means 25, it might not be on the list. 5. Yeah. You can do that. But I'm just saying, these people that live together indefinitely with no future, we're not into that because it's a time waster. So, look, I think, I think your your books are hugely valuable. I do think my daughters should read them. I'm gonna recommend your books to both my daughters. And I don't know if I want my future girlfriends to read your books. I'm not quite sure about that yet. Is if they're really smart for themselves, you won't know they read it. I see. They should be, like, a little bit loosey goosey. Well, also, to your point, if I really like them, I'm not waiting till Thursday anyway. Yeah. And you're not gonna know that they're not that they're not really thinking about what happened in their therapy session, and they're forcing themselves not to talk about it right away because they don't know you that well. And and if I ask on a Tuesday for a Saturday and they say no They don't like you. Then I should back off. Back off. No matter how much I like them, I should back off. Unless they have, like, a wedding or something that they can't see. Unless they can totally explain it Yes. And and and try to make up for it. Unless they can explain it or make up for it. Yeah. So that so that that's an important rule. A a men rule. A men rule. So here, I'm gonna ask you one final piece of advice. So you you you you mentioned, you knew how I only have, like, 15 items. I'm doing minimalism. Yeah. And so what I've been doing for the past 3 years is only living in Airbnbs. So I don't rent, and I don't own. And every few weeks, I've been moving, or every few sometimes a couple months. But in general, I haven't had a home. I've lived in other people's homes that I've sort of you know? So I never have to buy furniture. I never have to, have one. I can live in any neighborhood. I can live in any location. So, recently, a friend of mine told me, you know what? A female friend who's very smart, and she's been married for 30 years. Very successful marriage. Recently, a friend of mine told me she said, okay. Enough. Like, it's a now it's creepy. Like, now a woman is not gonna think it's eccentric anymore. It's you need to get an apartment. And she said other stuff to kinda support this, but what do you think of the just basic concept? She probably has a point at some level. I don't know that you know what? Look. You're you're a certain type of guy. You're funny. You're friendly. Someone's gonna love you. You want the girl who actually thinks it's cool that you do this. But I don't know. I agree. What do you think, Sherry? I don't know. It's fine if that's your thing. Yeah. Don't change for a woman. You be who you are. You should not I wouldn't change a thing. Yeah. If you really are enjoying this minimalist moving around, find a girl who's Could you tell us about your marriages if you want to? Yeah. Sure. I Did you pursue, and why did it end? Yeah. I I pursued, and I had kids with the first one. How did you meet her? How did you have? At work. And you knew right away she was the one? Or I was attracted right away, definitely. And then it's funny. Then, a friend of mine who who was working for me who was a lesbian woman said, oh, that girl is hot. And so I figured, oh, if this lesbian employee of mine thinks so So her her stock went up because someone else Yeah. I do. That's social proof. Like, a wing person almost. So how did you court her? Like, how did it? I we had to work together a little bit, and one time I asked her out. She said no, but she said no, but and, you know, the next time. And then I think it was, like, on the 3rd or 4th date, I went in for the kiss, and she said, next date. Oh, that's good. So then in a way, they don't say no. They just say lady. I think she was playing the rules. She even wrote me a whole I think she was she wrote me hard name. We could look her up at TFG. I think she We can look her up at TPG. Get her to see if she wrote us. Counsel told you what that Hold on. She wrote me a whole bunch of notes for this interview. She's you're still your friend? Oh, yeah. Yeah. She's the mother of my children. So Oh, okay. Good. Good. And she said she said, She still she has questions for us? Okay. She's wonders if there's generational differences, but you you basically said, no. And she said, she says with online dating, I would never give out my phone number, text, chat, connect on Facebook, etcetera, before meeting someone. She's right. That's fine. That's a good safety yeah. She says never, never break your own rules. Well, sometimes they wanna hear your voice before meeting. So she thinks so men tend to be more overly identified with their professional life. So she thinks women should study a little bit more what a man does for a living in terms of predicting their behavior. No. No. No? Doesn't matter. So you courted her, like, in a rules way, and you married her? Yeah. I she used the rules way. I was just like, boom. Why why aren't you So it worked. So what? So it worked. Yeah. So then how long were you married? We're married for, like, maybe 8 years, 9 years. And Long enough to have 2 kids. Why did it end? Or if you wanna tell us, you don't have to. I think I was going through a lot professionally, and it was caused me to be not as, in a present in the marriage as I could have been. And we tried counseling, and it just didn't it didn't work. So she ended it or you I mean, we both kinda basically, the therapist said you guys were not gonna work out. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Yeah. And, you know, and then Have you been married since then? Yeah. I got married again. When did you get married again? 2010. Okay. Really? And how did you get that? I met her online dating. Then I did online dating. Which is part of the reason why I won't do online dating now. That makes sense. What happened? Did you write to her first? I did write to her first. And So you see, you've never married anybody that wasn't the rules. Everybody else would have said, oh my god. He's cute. I wrote to him, but you don't even remember those girls, and you didn't marry them. That that's true. You your your two relationships, whether they worked or not, they were rules relationships. That's true. Yeah. When I was really interested. So, oftentimes, I've been really interested in women who weren't interested in me. I think that was the bulk of my That happens to everybody. Interest. But yeah. So, So what happened with the second one? Second one, that actually is, is her story to tell. I can't I can't really tell it. But you did marry her. You courted her properly. I I courted her, married her. And, you know, I'll tell you the one thing that she did that was impressive to me was I live very minimalist again, so I had no furniture. You had no soap. Okay. I had soap and a and a mattress and a mattress for my kids, and and I had a table but no chairs. Wait. A table but no chairs? Yeah. I just got lazy. So you sat on the floor to eat? Yeah. Sat on the floor to eat. Fine. One time she came to me, though, and she said, listen. By leaving my clothes on the floor, you're showing me you have no respect for me. And so that's what I bought, a dresser and Oh, you got furniture? Yeah. I got furniture. So why didn't that relationship work out? Well, again, that's that's her shower. Oh, that's right. Let me ask you this. Since what is it? How do you feel about being a minimal a minimalist? I love it because I don't really I attached I read your articles, and I was fascinated. I I attached much more value to great experiences, you know, looking into what the next the next thing is. So I guess if you're gonna date somebody for I I would wait. Maybe you could keep doing what you're doing until you meet someone you really like, but I guess at some point, you're gonna want more than an Airbnb. Yeah. But then I feel more. Then I feel I should the the whole point that my advice that my friend was making is that establish who you are first by establishing some roots. You've been doing this everybody in the world has roots. You're rootless. So establish what who you are. Rootless? Maybe that's who you are? Yeah. But but she didn't feel, that that was that that was she thought that was at some point a little bit. No. I I think I think I like stability in my life, but I think I just I I don't really know how to do things, so I don't really know how to, like, go out and and do all the things that that people should do because I've been doing this for so long. And I when I first moved to the city, I lived in a hotel. When I got divorced, I lived in a hotel. So I never really did it on my own ever in my entire life. I've never built my own home. Keep doing what you're doing and wait to meet someone who would just naturally she's like, oh, actually, like, after a while, when you're exclusive, makes you a dinner in a home with a chair, and you're happy with that, and maybe she'll do it for you. Maybe. We'll see. I don't think living this way is gonna keep a woman from marrying you. But once you get married, you wanna have a home. Yeah. So Maybe you'll meet someone who's like you, and she thinks it's cool, and we'll go to Airbnbs together. Yeah. Maybe. Well Alright. On that On that note. The rules and all the books that follow, I highly recommend them, and thank you so much for coming on the show. Maybe you'll come on again after I'm in a relationship. You could tell me what to do Definitely. When I get married. We're gonna stay in touch until you're married. Married. I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you one piece of advice Judy Blum gave me Yeah. Which is that, because I had been married twice, and I called her, and I said, I feel like I'm damaged goods because I've been married twice. And she said she's been married to her husband of 30 years, and it's her 3rd time. She said 3rd time's a charm. Yep. Yes. And she was trying to cheer me up. Yes. No. No. It's true. It really is true. Don't even do it like that. Think more highly of yourself. Yeah. You're a common way of yourself. Successful. You're helping people. Yeah. Why do you put yourself down? Don't put yourself down. I'm gonna close on that. Thanks so much. Thank you. Bye. For more from James, check out the James Altiger Show on the choose yourself network atjamesaltiger.com, and get yourself on the free insiders list today. Hey, everyone. Thanks for listening today. If you like this interview, I know you'll like so many more. You can be the first to hear all my new episodes by subscribing now on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you listen to. Thanks.