LOST: Down the Hatch | Season 2, Episode 21: "?"

Transcript

Hey, this is the moment. I'm Brian Koppelman, thanks for listening. My guest today showered for the podcast, not knowing podcasts or audio only. That's the kind of actually it says something really great about how immersed you are and what you do. Why trifle with things like how podcasts work, even though you hope you do many podcasts, you and Alan? My guest today is the brilliant Michael Bamberger, who is arguably the finest sportswriter currently working. And if you're a friend of mine who's a sportswriter and you're listening, I said among so that your feelings would get hurt. Michael Bamberger has just written a new book about Tiger Woods called Michael The Second Life of Tiger Woods. Brian, that was that was very artfully worded because you know how sensitive we sportswriters are despite the, you know, the odd couple and every other cliché that's come down through the years about what clogs we are so loosely worded can't expand. No, I do. I do know because when I covered the Masters for Sports Illustrated that couple of years back, yeah, I wrote something about the way I noticed sportswriters talking amongst themselves, and quite a few of your brethren were annoyed at me for that, and I thought it was hilarious. How, you know, as someone who's I mean, my work is, as yours is, is written about all the time and I've learned to just roll with it and not judge someone personally. But I could tell man sportswriters do not like if you do what they do to them and we conditioned like nobody's business. So it's really the ultimate in double standard. Brian, I have a vague memory. I enjoyed reading your stuff when you were down there. I think you were hanging out with Chris Stone and and others. It was a nice. I was probably about two or three years ago now and I have a vague memory, but told me if I have a right that you particularly enjoyed watching the writers at the trough enjoying the the the catering courtesy of Augusta National. Was that part of your bit? Well, you know, you took me, you took me to lunch there. I don't know if you remember we sat down and Davis love came over to the table. And no, no, you guys all talked about that a lot. But, but no, and this is gets us right into the subject of the book because no, what I really noticed was. The writers are all acting and saying they were so upset about the dominant position in the story that Tiger had that everyone acted like affronted at all this Tiger Woods attention and the crowd caring about Tiger, who in their minds was finished. Yet Tiger's mere presence made everybody's job feel relevant and alive, and everyone needed Tiger and everyone needed Stinney, and they hated the fact that they needed him. And I was fascinated by that, and I imagine that that power dynamic fascinates you as well, having read your book incredibly closely. Well, that's that's that's a great insight. And I think it goes now, Brian, you're you're you're younger than I. But do you remember Willie Mays this last year with the Mets at all? Or is that before you really well? No, I remember really well. My dad took me to a bunch of those. Oh, OK. I mean, so that's the same story here. You have a 500 team that's struggling. It turns out, you know, they made it to the World Series that year. But under Yogi Berra, the Willie Mays, you know, batting 202 was the dominant figure on that team. And you can imagine Joe Durso and Steve Cadee and Red Smith and the guys covering the teams like, Wow, I can't believe I'm still writing. Willie Mays after all these years. But then 20 years after the fact, it must be like, Wow, how cool was that? We covered Willie Mays this last year. And you know, that's that's always been my attitude about Tiger, even though he's been a very challenging subject. I'm just speaking for myself. Yeah, I understand a little off topic from what you were just asking, but just speaking for myself, I have always had the attitude of, yeah, it's a challenging subject. Yeah. How lucky am I to cover secretariat not just for two or three year period, but basically for 20, 25 years now, actually? Well, and that's clear, and we're going to talk a lot about that. I want to stay, though, because of I want to talk about a slight distinction in the Willie Mays Tiger Woods stories. It seems to me that the reason perhaps those sportswriters felt that way about Willie Mays was this idea that they weren't into the nostalgia. They weren't into this pretending that this guy who was having a hard time in centerfield was still Willie Mays with Tiger. I felt more of an anger from the sportswriters about Tiger. And as a kid, I felt a kind of a huge split between the audience and the patrons at Augusta. The fans at home watching on the internet and the sportswriters themselves, it seemed to me that the sportswriters had a particular anger at Tiger that I can't imagine existed around the lionized Willie Mays. And I'm wondering, you get it this a little bit in the book, but I'm wondering what your take on that is, why there is this level of resentment about the position. At the same time, Heard acknowledges all the money he brought into the game. But why is there a particular kind of anger directed at Tiger and Tiger World from the majority of those who cover the game? Well, very interesting observations, and I'm happy to address it. But let's just edit it just slightly from my end, not from year end to not use the word majority because I really don't know where the fault line would fall. But having said that, there is definitely a deep truth to what you're saying for some percentage, and I wouldn't want to try to identify the percentages. I wouldn't know of people who feel that way. I think part of it, Brian, might be that you you're old enough for this, for sure. And I'm older. Yet we fell in love with a game in which Tiger Woods was not a figure. Then we'd been in the game when Tiger Woods was a figure, and then we'll be in the game. We hope it's some capacity. Long after Tiger is done is done competing. So there's a little bit, or maybe not a little bit. There is resentment of Tiger that he carried himself as if he were the game when it's not true. And part of the actual charm of Arnold Palmer in particular. But you could really say this Ali Trevino and Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson and others is that in almost every gesture, in almost every public gesture they had, there was an underlying understanding that they were not bigger than the game. And with Tiger, that wasn't really the case. Do you think that addresses some of what you're interested in here? Well, I think it does actually reveal a bunch of stuff. Yeah, but I would suggest that it ignores that the game actively tried to keep people like Tiger Woods out. And so I understand completely why Tiger's why tiger? In the same way that people were annoyed that they thought Serena and Venus weren't gracious when they were young. I completely see power, race and class at play here, and I feel I feel that all I thought about when I was at Augusta was race, power and class in a way that surprised the hell out of me because Augusta is one of my favorite objectively. Augusta is one of the most magical places in the world to me. I'm in love with it in many ways, and then walking the grounds, I am being by that big tree that you describe that whole scene so incredibly well. Michael, you are. I really want to talk about the way you write. It's really, I think you are. It's beyond state of the art. I mean, I think there's a reason your books will last a very long time. But I do think that this power dynamic there's this old guard idea about the game. Look, you you make, as I said to you in an email. You make quite a few allusions in the book that are designed to appeal to people with various levels of engagement in the game, popular culture, literature, it's a real testament to what you do that you've written a book that can be that rewards multiple layers of of reading, but you kind of casually reference the way that Palmer would enjoy himself off the field without saying anything again, you know? But you if if people know the stories, they know the stories. Yet all that behavior was sort of excused, and in fact, he was protected by the sportswriters. You would not think that he and Jack acted any differently in those ways. Yet Tiger is wholly considered differently. Do you think that's fair? Well, it's not fair, and I agree with everything you saying. And and I'm sometimes too maybe subtle in my own writing and in expressing some of these things that you've just really hit the nail on the head on. Let's just go back to race our class for a second. Race power class is the underpinning and the foundation of how Augusta National got got built and created in the myth of Augusta National. What has happened over the years? In my opinion, race per class has been subsumed by elitism and a sense of noblesse oblige, by which the club says We open our doors for a week. And you know, if you if you have a super duper trespass like I have and you go wherever you want in the clubhouse, that's one level. And even if you can only quote, just walk the grounds, well, you're the insider inside of insiders. And for that week, even let me say, I hope this is fair liberal minded people like like you and like, like I would say, almost put that in like in the closet so we can just enjoy the majesty that you just described. And tiger flies in the face of that. Not so much because of Tiger. Not so much because of the example of Tiger's own life, but really because of Earl and Cheetahs life and the fact that they raise this child to be accepted and to become the most powerful person in a sport that's been dominated by rich was for for most of the 20th century in the United States. And and we sort of lose track of the overall story. So there is so much going on in that one week and then the doors closed and then they sort of go back to leading the lives of the elite, right? I'm just going to I want to let you get right back into it. I just want to tell this brief thing quickly. So as you know, Tiger won his first masters at age 21 by 12 shots in his first major as a professional in 1997. And and I was writing for Sports Illustrated, and that night I wrote a piece about how, with this victory, Tiger Woods had become the most powerful person in the game in the game of golf as it happened a couple of months later. I was a guest, an overnight guest in the home in Augusta National member. This is in his home in South Florida. He pulled that clipping out. He had like, you know, those old fashioned E.B. white type heavy wool sit in in the middle of the Florida summer. He's wearing one of those shirts, heavy pockets of the whole thing like a cup, almost. And he takes it out of one of the two L.L. Bean pockets, and he reads it back to me and he says, and it says, you know, I wrote like, you know, the green coded members would have to cede their power to this kid. And he said, You dare to come into this house after writing that, and I'm like, Oh my God, what have I got myself into here? But it was just really, really telling that. And it's like everything in life said, you know, I mean, you write this weekly when you're when you're writing Billy tunes, the people who have the power do not want to give it up, but to keep the power. They have to give little dollops out here and there and let people rise to some degree or else there's a revolution and a revolution's bad. So I don't know. I'm going on a crazy tangent here, but you've done what you said triggered a lot for me. Well, yeah, because b because tiger as a figure. So there's a there's a sentence in your book and I'll say, Michael, I don't know if if you listen to the episode of my podcast, I did with Arman and his partner when they wrote the other Tiger Woods book, but I didn't. But I noted I noted somewhere that you said that it was a very challenging interview. It was the most contentious interview I've ever been a part of and and I really respect Arman. I think he's a great journalist, but I had real problems with that book because I felt. And I'm not I'm not going to I know they're friends of yours and published by the same people, but I felt their book was an excellent document in in many ways. But it lacked the love, the sort of the sense that this was a Greek hero and a Greek god and a Greek tragedy. And your book, I think, has so much love and regard for the game and for the particular challenge that Tiger Woods was that the path Tiger Woods was set upon from a very young age. And that's why I loved your book, and I've given it to many people, even though there's one sentence in it that I felt was maybe the only one sentence I felt wasn't true in the book. And I really want to ask you about this sentence because I think you choose your sentences incredibly carefully and you. I don't know the book in front of me, so I'm going to paraphrase. But the sentence was that to you? Tiger never was a hero. You didn't look to him to be a hero. You look to him as somebody who could do an incredibly impossibly hard thing under incredible pressure over and over again. And that was enough. But I would suggest that you reference shivers irons right from the beginning because to you and to the reader of your book, Tiger is the kind of hero that the Greeks wrote about a deeply flawed, godlike figure brought down by, by, by that very flawed character. Wow, Brian, I can't even begin to tell the Colosseum enjoying this. OK? Michael Murphy's heroes what not Michael Murphy, but Michael Murphy explorers Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey in his life way up and in Shamus Irons and Michael Murphy wrote Golf in the Kingdom Ship Irons is the main character in that book. That book half of it, and I love that you pointed this out. Half of that book is just one of the greatest things you could ever read. For me, the second half I can't deal with, but the first half is unbelievable. And it's it's about the sort of apotheosis of the platonic ideal of of a golfer. OK, go ahead. OK, so and what you speak of the hero's journey? I mean, that is the Tiger Woods story. And he does. Yeah, he does go out there. And in the hero's journey, the hero falls at the hands of at the hands of women, at the hands of power. And so a lot of things and still finds his way back. But just to be just to go on a tactical level, no, that you paraphrase it sends very, very capably, very accurately. But no, I would absolutely say I know that. In other words. Oh, I know you don't want to go all over the lot here, but I was sure you do it. I would review the Wallace Shawn character in my dinner with Andre Moore heroically than Tiger Woods, whereas you wouldn't look at Wally Sean's character there and say, Oh, what a hero, because he's not doing anything very exciting or uplifting, but I wouldn't. It would be almost unimaginable for me to look at any sports figure. Maybe Roberto Clemente would be an example and truly heroic terms. But having said that, Tiger's ability to inspire and to excite and to allow us to transport ourselves from our ordinary, everyday lives, it is heroic and we need that in our lives. But I guess it's just a little bit of the great classic definition of hero versus the everyday use of Hero. Reg Smith was one of my well, I just was about to use the phrase, and I'm going to use it sports red Smith. You want that. You want you want to tell the people who get rich and famous. Yes. Until the late Dan Jenkins passed away, Red Smith was the most oft cited late sportswriter, one that inspired, you know, even your Mike Lupica as all woods and all the great sports where Gary Smith's would all cite Red Smith as the great sportswriter. Now I grew up reading Red Smith, and I was just about to say he was my writing hero. He's definitely is one of my writing heroes. I know you might make a deal with writing later. But the point here being that I just was about to use the word hero because I so aspire to be, you know, to have just a follow read Smith's steps into clubhouses. Sort of it might be. But anyway, so I guess Tiger Woods, I don't really think of heroic Lee, and I sort of lost my own thread here for a minute. But just to get back to now, aam. And by the way, you know, I don't know either of those guys. I did read their book with a lot of admiration for the report, for the reporting that they did. But as you pointed out, and I'm not saying this critically, I'm just saying this as as an observation that book was not written with a deep level of empathy because they really didn't know their subject like, you know, Tiger. And like, I knew Tiger because our starting point is we love golf and we know how hard it is. Anyway, I'm sorry, Brian. I just know that's a no you. No, this is not Michael. This is great. We're getting we're getting to this question because I want to stay on this hero thing because your book is. It's one thing to say, yes, we can cite the hero journey and buy by candidates in a very important book and and you reference ID and you reference you talked to Michael Murphy about it. But the book is I have three different thoughts, I'm going to say them all, and we'll keep you and I can be as discursive as we want, why not? We're comfortable with that and my audience is totally comfortable with that. So they're used to me being discursive. So what I thought of, of course, Public Enemy's line. And this is one of the great things about your book, right? You whether you all over the place, you're throwing lines in allusions that make someone go somewhere. So of course, the thought of Elvis was a hero to most, but he never meant s**t to me, right? And but on the other hand, the book is a study of a Greek. The heroic Greek figure, like you do structure the book in that way, you start in this moment of loss of all of the the last vestige of innocence of Achilles. You know, you start with the moment that it all gets torn away and then you allow us to be with him as you vanquish his all opponents, even the good man Molinari. And so we we get to see all this stuff happen on a hero's journey and the empathy. I'm glad you used that word. It's clear you have empathy for this tragic hero. So to me that a tragedy to sportswriters version of the Greek tragedy is these are people. And this is what I noticed, and this is why I'm sometimes glad that I, you know, that was obviously a path I could have taken. And I'm I'm glad in many ways I didn't, because as much as I loved doing it when I get the chance to do it, and I actually think it's why Bill Simmons changed, that's why I think not you personally, but a bunch of your breed hates bill or hates what Bill did or hates the notion that bill is Tiger Woods to sportswriters. Bill change the game. He's more important than the game, and I think it drives sportswriters nuts because Bill was willing to say, Yeah, these guys are heroes to me. He didn't never lost what I think so many of you are proud to have lost, which is this idea that the mere fact that they can do these impossible things makes them heroic. Right? You know, and just to go back to one of your original early themes here, I think there is a resentment. There's an underlying resentment of Tiger in that he never really gave the writers much to work with in terms of in terms of spoken words. Therefore, f**k them. And that is my my attitude has been well. He's given us a tremendous amount by what he's actually done on the golf course. And it's our challenge to figure out how to explain how that to turn that language. The language of the the five iron from 240 on the 15 pole Sunday at Augusta hole high going down the hill and taught them to to to turn what he does and how he expresses himself through the actual playing of shots and then his own body language to it to to express that to the audience in meaningful ways. So so that buried his stinginess with words in a press conference is a starting point for resentment, in my opinion. Fascinating. I remember standing in that little area, but what do they call that area by the big trees that where the players give their interviews after the tree outside, you know, under the tree would be under the trees? I remember standing under the tree and watching Bubba get interviewed, and someone asked him about Sergio's putting the balls in the drink, and you describe all that beautifully. Someone asked him about it because it had just happened and he looked at them and he said. This is a very hard game. How come you guys just never like, acknowledge how hard this is? And I think your book does an incredible job, dude, of articulating what it takes to execute this game well. And and I guess this is what I want to ask you. If the difficulty of golf having to master yourself in the way Chevys, Irons and Michael Murphy talk about if it does reveal character, which I believe you think it does. Then what does it tell us about the man, Tiger Woods and his heroism, and if it doesn't reveal character, then what are we doing thinking about it this much? Oh well, you know, I've devoted an ungodly portion of my adult life to the very question that you're asking, and you won't be surprised at all to know that. I very much feel that golf does reveal character. And that's why, along with baseball and a few other, you know, a few other things in life, I could spend a lot of time writing about it. Let's leave the rules aside, because I think that it's almost obvious how the rules of golf are an ethics test really. The playing of golf at my level and your level on Tiger's level is essentially the same act. And if you, you know, let's say you and I are playing a challenging course, Baltusrol over, it might be and we're trying to break 90. Yes. The emotional challenges that we're going through on an hour, an hour walk to the clubhouse, you know, we could talk about Chaucer and Canterbury Tales because there is that element of golf as well are pretty much identical to the challenges of trying to get to that house at Augusta National, knowing that two seventy six is either going to play off or win. There really is that much, that much difference. So I so if it Molinari can't keep his ball drive and 12 and on 12 and 15 as it could not. My starting point is I've been there brother and know somebody has to say, What do you mean you've been there? You know, you barely qualify for your club championship. Well, I've been there because I know the game is hard. The ball is still completely still doing nothing. You're standing over the ball and it's this weird blend mind body blend that allows you to propel the ball in a certain direction, and it is loaded with imperfection or the, you know, the prospect for imperfection. In fact, pretty much they're all every shot's imperfect to varying degrees. And so when you when you take it all together, it is a challenge and a test of one's character. Can you rise above the physical and mental problems presented in playing the shot with that ball at your feet, doing nothing and achieve something? Now you have all sorts of other character tests. How are you going to do? You know, let's say in tournament golf, especially, how are you going to deal with your playing partners who are both your friends and your enemy? How are you going to deal with that golf course, which is both your friend and your enemy? How are you going to deal with the rulebook, which is there to protect you and screw you at the same time? So there's so much swirling. It's just like baseball where, you know, people say, you know, baseball's so slow, baseball's so slow. And so you realize how fast it is because you have to make so many adjustments so quickly. To play the game well gives you exactly why there's such a swirl of stuff going on all the time. It's actually amazing that these world class golfers can get around in, you know, 3:45 in time for 60 Minutes on Sunday night in a normal masters year. And so then so if we go back and read the the Greek tragedies there, yes, they may be the gods or they may be figures who are royal, they may be put to tasks that feel like they are life or death. But ultimately, often it is about duty, obligation, expectation and and character flaws revealed and. And that's what we call heroes, right? The the question, I guess I would ask you is isn't it heroic in any sense other than that which, you know, someone goes to war? Does, you know, sacrifices for someone else, which is quite, you know, other than other than people who you know, on the frontlines in the world of medicine, basically, or the small acts of kindness is not something we see every day isn't in our culture in the way it normally exists, especially in a pre sort of COVID 19 world. Isn't it a stand in for heroism in some way? Isn't that why so many of us, not you love Tiger Woods, adore Tiger Woods in like the old sense of the word adore? Well, yes, I think I think that's true, and I think we I mean, it's a very simple take for me on what you just said is we could look at Eisenhower heroically for what he did in World War Two. Look at Eisenhower really for the creation of the interstate highway system. That's allowing us to get our food on a daily basis right now. Teddy Roosevelt for starting the national park system and service that we enjoy today. You know, those would be big, grand examples of noble, heroic behavior. The example of Tiger Woods, of course, is a much more narrow one. But I would say, and this is the very ordinary sports fans experience. He lifts us by his example. And and I think, Brian, I certainly don't want one to speak for you in any way. But I think what maybe you're picking up from the book is what I feel is that Tiger's life example is so stroke because of this sign curved thing that we're talking about up, down, up, down, up and it's doable and that. But we need the example. We need the example. Yes, that's why I would assert that he is a hero to you, even though you state overtly that he's not. That's all I would do. But I know you've made it. You've made a great point. Believe it or not, I would write that sentence again only because I'm using hero a little differently than you are. But now we have a much more nuanced conversation of what constitutes heroism. And yes. And by the way, I mean, this is such a cliche. But, you know, and any character from any Bruce Springsteen song written before 1975, and he's got the Lunch Pail Job and it's boring and it's monotonous and could lose a finger at any moment. And he comes home and he's got insurance and he's got food on the table and he can change his own oil. Obviously, that is an American hero, too, because look at the example he's creating for his two kids. So whatever and on the Bruce is a perfect example. But Bruce is a perfect example, and I want to stay with this because this is why I think so much of this. Not I think you do. I do want to talk to you about Bobby Jones's grandson and why we great grandson, why we give him this great grandson or great grandson, Doug, just grandson. So his grandson, and why we give him such a microphone. But because of the race question and class question. But you bring up Bruce, and it's a perfect example. So Bruce is a true hero to me. I got to have dinner with him this year. I get to have dinner with Bruce this year, and it was. As I haven't I you know, I was saying this to my wife and kids recently, like I still have a process that it was five months ago and I still really haven't processed that I got to have dinner with him. But Bruce himself has stood on a stage and said, Hey, I'm not as noble as the guy I want to be in the songs. He wrote a book about it. He wrote it over and over, told us in so many words, Hey, I used to. He actually said it in the storytellers, right? I went to strip clubs. I would sit outside of them and want to be a different guy. I'd want to be the Bruce that the songs make you think I am, but I'm not quite that guy. I'm a more complex, difficult person, and that's the price. Maybe we all pay for the fact that I can do this thing I do in my art. Yet Bruce is considered a fully it's fully accredited and acceptable to just adore and love Bruce, knowing, by his own admission, he was unfaithful. At times he wasn't the best. You know, he f**ked up a lot. Yet with Tiger, maybe because of the nature of golf, maybe because of the fact that he's black and Asian and a white man's game, it seems to me that every time we hold him up, we have to say but. But, but but but in a way that we don't often do that for other kind of figures of his stature. Brian, you may be on to something that I haven't given enough thought to, and I will, but but I would say the same for Bruce as I would say for Tiger that I would say for Johnny Carson, the missteps for Martin Luther King, for JFK, you know, for your father and my father, for you and for me. And I don't mean to say all men there. I don't know why that group is all men because, well, I think there's a reason. Well, the reason we don't know much about Georgia O'Keeffe, but you know, she might be on the list, too. But but the point I'm trying to make is, you know, we go down into the spectrum and we catch a Bruce show and we're transported and we're lifted and we feel like we can do a little more something with our lives. That is a heroic act. And I would say watching Tiger go from where he was on that Memorial Day 2017, I know some of your listeners will know I'm talking about someone, but where he was to where he was. That is a heroic journey. So I'm not shy at all about using the word heroic in that sense. And I we've discussed already, you know, my want you said that one sentence, but no one. I'm totally I'm totally with you, and I feel like I probably I. I need to probably think more more about it, but I think you're very I think you're very much on to something. This is why I love your book, Don Man, because it raises these questions. The great thing is, you put that sentence in there, but then you take us on the journey in. Michael, before you and I met, I was such a giant fan of yours because of the book you wrote about M. Night Shyamalan. I found it to be and and there are there are certain parallels that book that say the title of that book, please. I don't have it right here in front of me. Well, the man who heard voices is the name of the book, so people who listen to this podcast should read that book. It is one of the greatest. For me, it is one of the greatest documents about what happens around powerful people and about what happens when somebody believes the reasons for their success had to do only with them, and in fact, that their success is proof of their infallibility and. You know, later on, much later night made a comeback similar to tigers, perhaps. But what is it about these kind of figures that attracts you so much, do you think? How do you pick because you've written very personal books. Michael, you've covered a wide variety of athletes, but you don't write quickie sports books. You do not write a sports book, even if you write them fairly quickly. They're not quickie, but these are books that it's clear you really think about thematically. You really think about the voice you're going to use to tell the story. You approach your subjects with rigor and empathy. How do you decide where you're going to put that particular portion of your energy that fully immersive part of what you do? Well, I'm I'm going to guess, Brian, that it's it's similar and different to what you do. But let's say in your case, I don't know if your broker, not whatever your your your station might, was that moment, but you're sitting in a room. I think you did it with somebody else and you have this idea that turns into rounders. In other words, a guy in a room sleeping on a mattress, you know, while most people sleep on mattresses. And then, just by his own will, turns it into a movie that moves. I would guess probably millions of people and Night Shyamalan, you know, regardless of the fact that he grew up in an affluent family and all the rest, you know, that's not immaterial. But let's leave that aside. He goes to a funeral and he sees a kid talking to himself and imagines the kids saying, I see dead people, and he takes the phrase and turns it into a script that becomes a movie that becomes iconic, really? Tiger Woods, or under these atypical circumstances, you know, black father who, you know, lived through racism or went to Vietnam, who found the woman who became his wife there, who have only one child, and that child is Tiger Woods. And you take that child when that child was born, that child's world ranking on the world, you know, on the World Golf ranking was, you know, number three point three billion. And, you know, 20 years later, that child was number one, in other words. So that part of what what the individual can do with one's life. I realize I'm saying nothing and everything here, but I guess that's what I'm drawn to. You know, here's a here's a. This is kind of crazy and kind of similar. We are all I think about this really probably every day. We are all granted just short of twenty four hours every day. That's a given to every person on what in God's name are you going to do with that 24 hours, what you do and what I do and what you know, a dope dealer does and what someone who is, you know, fighting alcoholism does and what somebody who's on the front, you know, the front lines of this of this epidemic. It's all going to be very different. But. Well, this is really an aside. But this gets to my reporting like one thing that I found helpful in my reporting life is to the starting point being is that we all have these 24 hours. And what are we going to do with them? So like, I once got to meet Barack Obama very briefly, and it just occurred to me like, well, what the heck has the guy done today, you know, did he go? He was happy to be on Martha's Vineyard. So, you know, now Martha's Vineyard, surrounded by water, I said, Did you get, you know, President Obama, who is sitting president? Did you get in the ocean today? And it turns out that he did. He told me about it. But anyway, I think I'm probably not really answering your question, but I'm just very drawn to the idea that a person has a problem in his or her mind, a goal in his or her mind. And then and this is a critical component, actually does the work to achieve something? And I know you do that in your life and I try to do that in my life. And I would say Night Shyamalan and in Tiger Woods and many others do it as well along the way. I developed a sort of sub interest in people who try really hard and don't quite get there, and it doesn't really matter. That's yes, that's also fascinating for sure. To think about. And how do you as a as a storyteller because you're a masterful storyteller, man, how do you decide and when in the process do you decide how you're going to tell the particular story? And what I mean by that is the kind of language you're going to use, but also the narrative in point. In other words, when did you make the decision? OK, I'm going to start by telling the story of these officers who arrested Tiger how and I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it in a language that has some police procedural in it in the beginning. And I'm also then going to do it in this language that is the the sort of Michael Bamberger way with with words. How does how does that all tone, tone, voice, a narrative structure? When and how do you decide those things? How much of it is instinct and how much of it is intentional craft? Well, now I hope I'm not overdoing it here, but just to go back to Berkshire because he is one of my heroes and I always, when Bart's name comes up, I always say that Berkshire Marty, when I first knew him, was the president of Yale University. His wife, Tony GMAT, was. She taught journalism at a private day school in New Haven called Hopkins. And I was a kid out of college and they were sort of larger than life figures to me. But also especially you could take that, you know? Well, they've got 24 hours given to them to just sort of people going through their life, too. But anyway, one of the things Bart was very interested in in journalism generally and and that's really was the foundation should be great. We had a friendship that was the foundation of the friendship. And one of the things that Bart would say is the language of the subject should dictate, to some degree, not completely, to some degree, the language of the writing. Now the reason that is coming to mind was that clear brush. Yeah, that's clear. And I will say I wish I'd gotten to know Bart Giamatti. You know, I love Paul so much and any time I've heard him speak of his dad, it's it. It makes me know what an incredibly special man he must have been, right? OK, so, so so the language of the subject dictates the language of the writing. To some degree, we're not going to say completed, but to some degree. OK. So in this instance, now a friend of mine, there's a dick joke on the first page of the the first page of the book and a friend. You may be thinking about how his wife might read the book. I'm not really sure we think a, you know, like the book, but why do you have to hold the dick joke on Page one? Well. Because it's because it's Tiger, because that joke is part of who Tiger really is. And even when Tiger has flights of fancy or is doing something with his kids or is raising money for his foundation. I want you to remember that he is very comfortable with the dick joke. So, so that would be your honor. Are you also aware that? So I got to ask about that one because. OK, again, I think this thing you do, which is you're I also felt you were perhaps doing that to remind us that. The first big sort of public problem Tiger ever got in was that the magazine shoot when he was telling off color jokes. Right and right. And even though you don't tell that story in the book. But that if you might reference it briefly, you don't really tell it. But to me, I read that opening line and I was like brought back to Tiger at 22 years old, and I felt like you were letting us pick up from there with some sort of our minder was that. Is that intentional? In other words, was that in your head also? Well, not that specifically. Now that you're mentioning it, I think I think what you're saying is very true. I can't say I was thinking that specifically, but just that I didn't want. I didn't want any reader to lose sight that, you know, this is sort of a locker room guy. He is a jock. He's been in all male environments, you know, all his life. I just didn't want you to lose track of that for a minute. So. So, so that's part of what picks up the gist, part of of of language choice or what how you might write the idea that that this was a life an X. You know, the book is, as you know, well, it's it's sold almost like it's almost like it's almost like it's a play. And because that's really how I see life in general in Tiger's life in particular, and I'm focusing here really on a two year, extraordinary two year period that does begin with this police procedural and basically ends with him, you know, getting a green jacket put on that put on his shoulders. And it did seem operatic and theatrical. And so it just kind of lent itself to to that path and then just to go a little further down that that road for a minute. You'll know the same, but many of the listeners won't puncture Kinion. Did you know that? Yeah. So fracture. Carnahan was the longtime producer of the Masters. I've told this many times, but but many people always people always say he, and they will always say he invented golf on television. Many golf and I've said that forever. And I'm paraphrasing the use of Philadelphia, and I got to know him a little bit. He would say, the masters, you know, you know, others wouldn't. You know, there are three really sui generous golf tournaments the U.S. Open, the British Open in the Masters and the Masters to your kidney. And that was his baby. And it was the greatest of all tournaments because it had the most extraordinary stage the gross national golf course. And it was and it was built. It was a three act play unfolding before our eyes with the Thursday Friday Rowdies Act one, the Saturday Rounders Act two and the Sunday Round Act three. And the protagonists were whoever happened to play well that week. And if it was Charlie Cudi and Gabe Brewer great and it was Tom Weiskopf and Arnold Palmer better. But, you know, we're not, we're not necessarily better. You know, it was all good, whatever. You know, he's like Red Smith. You know, God is good. God will provide. Somebody is going to win this tournament and their life is going to change because of it. And he was going to tell that story. So anyway, so I took cues from Jr Canyon for my own love of theater and movies and that kind of storytelling and and that just sort of dictated the structure of the thing. I've got a very close friend, the actor David Morse. And have you ever worked with David Byrne? No. But you know, Paul's manager, Perry manages David as well, and I think David's an incredible actor. I'm a huge fan of his. And David played George Washington when Paul played John Adams in that series some years ago. So David and I worked on some things over the years, and we're actually trying to do something now. And I said, Well, what about the boring part in the beginning? And he said, Yeah, there's not going to be a boring part in the beginning. And I'm like, You mean we're going to start with something interesting right from beginning? He said, Yeah, I think I think that's better than having a boring part. I said, Wow, that's really good. I'm going to write that. So I said, You know what? It's like, we do the same thing in different ways. It's like you steal from everybody. You learn from everybody. It's like when Curtis and Curtis Strange was going bad, they'd say, You know, what's Curtis doing with his golf game? You, we want to, as you say, opens I heard from to start you as up and I from years. And they're like, Curtis is taking tips from Delta skycaps, you know? I thought, Well, we'll take for anybody. You know, I'm sure you do, Sam. I read all day, every day, and you're not. In my case, I'm not consciously once. I'm not consciously learning the craft of writing while I'm reading. I'm just reading. And in the reading, you're picking stuff up all the time. So, you know. What's that where you're growing at the time in the. Yes, of course you are. Yeah, you have to be reading all the time. If you're a writer, you have to be watching stuff and reading all the time and I agree with you, you're not consciously picking stuff up, but you are. You're you're learning. And I certainly felt that way. Reading your book? I want to ask a couple of other questions, so in the world of golf, there is. Well, I'll say it this way as I just to return to this idea that for me, as much as I glorify and love the masters and watch all four days, you know, I'll do anything I can to watch all four days of it and I could talk about it. Not, you know, you and Alan. No thousand times more about it than I do, but I could stay in the conversation and I've read a lot of books about it. But why did why did you decide to give Doug Jones such a big voice in? You're is first name, Doug, what's his first name? Bob Bob Jones. I'm sorry. Bobby Jones, his grandson. Why did you decide to give? Doug Jones is the senator? I got confused. Why did you decide to give Bob Jones such a big voice in the book? And and I and and I would say, is the only part of the only part of the book that I actually, you know, I still feel that nobody gives. When I was at Augusta, I felt walking around there, I felt the legacy of racism, I felt the legacy of classism. I felt in every step in the smiles and I'm friends with. I'm friends with some members of Augusta. I think the world of a couple of them, but I can't walk around there without feeling this oppressive. Like you said, sense of, Hey, we're going to smile at you. So hard to show you in a way how restrictive this place is, how it's ours, not yours. I watched billionaires that I know through my research look with eager eyes like the eyes that Al Pacino uses in Donnie Brasco to look at the mob boss just wanting some member to give them the nod that they'll be able to come there and stuff. And when you read the books about the starting of the place and the culture and the legacy. I did feel like, well, gee, Bob Jones has a lot more to answer for than that, and it felt to me like when you're writing a book about a black American that perhaps we all should always mention how tiger kind of stuffed their legacy in their face and why that makes it even more even more of an incredible thing that he came back to do this. Well, Brian, I'm with you and and I feel it as well, and I can answer the Bob Jones part in a minute. But just what you're saying brings so much to mind. I feel the exact same way the other day I was driving, you know, when when the when the pandemic sort of broke open, I certainly did. I was in north, I was in Greater Jacksonville coming golf tournament, the players championship. I certainly didn't want to get on a plane. I certainly wasn't in a rush to get home. So I made a meandering drive home and I stopped at Augusta and I wanted to drop off actually a copy of the book for a woman there who'd been extremely helpful to me. And and I just was going to bring it to the front gate. Leave it there. Well, they have these bollards that say, you pronounce that word that would prevent you from going down the driveway, which they called Magnolia Lane to the clubhouse. Right. And. I would have had absolutely no desire, I may be in part because I've done it so many times in my life and I don't need to do it again to go down the driveway or, you know, Magnolia Lane. And you know, in other words, it's uncomfortable for me and I've been there as a guest a couple of times. The first time I went there, I think, was in 1990. And in that period, all the caddies were black, you know, maybe not every last one, but pretty much. And they carried they carried just one golf bag and they were these white coveralls. And it's uncomfortable. It's I'm not comfortable. There's there. There is a feeling of the, oh, I don't know, plantation, really. But yeah, but then in the in the book, Bob Jones basically gets to say, Well, my grandfather wasn't racist, and we kind of leave it there in a way. Well, I don't. Bob Jones, the grandfather grew up in a time and place where you couldn't not be a racist. Right, he was pretty clear that he was. Yeah, it's pretty clear that it was so pervasive in his culture. Yes. You know, it would be like, you know, if I look back at some of the embarrassing things you know, I have heard and likely have said about whatever I wouldn't even really want to get into. In other words. You and I in our lives have evolved in terms of our language and our attitude about this issue and that issue. And and Jones Jones would have as well to the very specific question here, some about Bob Jones the fourth and using him in the book. Well, here is a man who's who worships his grandfather, who sees him in rogue terms, who's become a clinical psychologist who has improbably in many ways the same a similar skill set in terms of courtly ness and warmth and looking at the big picture. And he represents a tremendous evolution over his grandfather while acknowledging who his grandfather was. Let me just make a quick side trip here to a few years ago, I was writing about a man whose father was the first green keeper slash superintendent at Augusta National. And in that day, they call the superintendent. But back then they would have used the word green paper. And that's just the person who maintains the golf course, and they had a house on the golf course. So this man who's now in his late 80s, his backyard, was the Augusta National course. Now, just as a quick aside, what do you think about where we are right now in this weird moment? The Augusta National golf course during World War Two will, in part of the war effort, was literally a cow pasture for the raising of cows to get milk. There were guard. In other words, you know, so what? What we're going through is really unfortunate, but it's a blip compared to what, you know, our parents generation and our great parents just went through anyway. This man grew up with the Augusta National golf course as his backyard, and he was friends with caddies at Augusta National and from the guys from the abutting neighboring Augusta National. Excuse me, Augusta Country Club, many of whom were black. And this man in our conversation used, you know, the most famous were one of the most famous words, if not in our language, to describe his black friends. And the question is for me was and I wound up quoting him. That's my memory. Is that I did. But. And Brian, you may not feel comfortable at all. What I'm going to say, no, say it, please. No. He was an ignorant man who grew up in a time and a place. And so now Jones was not an ignorant man who grew up in a time and a place. But he's so cute. But you know, I mean, I grew up going to a conservative synagogue. I'm going out. There was no room for an openly gay person to say nothing of a, you know, a transgender person in that community. Now it's of course, you know of, of course, you know, the doors are open. You know, we're all God's children. What time did you wait? What time did you grow up on Long Island in Patchogue on the South Shore will mount. So I guess, I guess I'd make a broad allowance for evolution of thinking. But I think I think to your specific question, I think Dr. Bob Jones first off, I think he's an insightful, smart person who's watched, who knows Jones as examples, watch Tiger closely and just offers insight that I might not have myself or crystallized ideas I might have had myself. So he was he was helpful in that regard. And I think also represents, you know, what happens in in succeeding generations. And curiously, not to get too deep into the woods here. But you know, many of your listeners would know that that Augusta National was founded by two men, Cliff Roberts and Bob Jones, in a power struggle late in Jones's life. Cliff Roberts froze out Jones and sort of really, in effect, took over the club himself, and I'm going to use the word again, one of my golf heroes, a man named Sandy Tatum. Brian, would you would you be familiar with that name? No, I don't know that name. I've read the I read the the big amazing book about the two, those two men and how they started Augusta. But I don't remember that name. Tell me, you know, Sandy W. Wood, sandy him is after them. He's his Tom Watson sort of God father figure. He was a lion of San Francisco, the former president of the USGA. But anyway. But Sandy Tatum wouldn't join Augusta National because, yeah, because of how Cliff Roberts handled handled Bobby Jones and Bobby Jones's life. But anyway, I guess I make know. The other day a guy wrote, Wonderful, nice story about me in the book. And one of the things you said was, you know, Bamberger doesn't do rage. And it's interesting. You know, like when I wrote the book about night, one of the things you said was like, You know, I'm interested to hear your take on my process. Know. Wow, that's. Now I don't get that very often, but I did get it. So when the guy wrote, Bamberger doesn't do rage, I thought, Wow, that's really interesting sounds because like, I don't really do rage. And I know a lot of writers do. And I just, I don't know. I don't have the gene for it. I had more the gene for. Let's try to understand. Let's try to understand why people are the way they are. Sure, I would. I would just say, and again, I want to restate how much I love the book. It's a book. I know I'm going to read a second time and I don't read many books a second time. I want to read it again just to appreciate sort of the way that that it's written because it's written so beautifully. But. But I would say in the same way as Wallace tells that to foster Wallace, David Foster Wallace tells that story about the water. For me, the thing is. You're at in golf. The water itself that we don't notice is all of that stuff, and that's why. And I think that's why to me, the mere fact of when I was at Augusta, I spent a lot of time watching Cattell to right when I was there. I remember walking with tigers, you know, at Augusta, unlike at the other majors, just so people know most sportswriters are not allowed inside the ropes. You have to watch from outside the ropes. You only had Augusta. You can't get inside the ropes, right? So when I got to cover the PGA at Bethpage, I was inside the ropes, which was just mind-boggling experience. But at at Augusta, I was outside the ropes and it's very challenging to get looks at, at, at where people are. And at a certain point I decided and I remember Clotilde was wearing these Merril. I remember the shoes that she was wearing as and I remember thinking she, Tiger's mother, is the kind of person who considered the terrain she was going to be walking to follow her son. And I remember with these black, a certain kind of Merrill that I then bought. Actually, I have them. And I remember thinking, OK, she bought these utility shoes to walk and follow her son with this sense of purpose in this environment that did everything it could to keep people like them out. And I guess for that reason, for me, giving Bob Jones and the legacy of Bob Jones a voice in judging the way you use him, which is very effective in the book, sort of as a stand in professional to talk about the mindset was an interesting choice, a curious choice because he brings whether we want him to or not. He brings that legacy of exclusion to the table. And as an, as you know, Brian, this is an American thing. This golf, this idea of golf as a sport to to separate people where of course, in Scotland, it actually you know where the game was basically founded and nurtured. Some people think it was actually no harm. But leaving that aside as an ice game, but leaving that aside, the it's a very egalitarian game and they don't have they have a handful of quote elite clubs, but even those elite clubs are basically open to everybody. Uncertain times. So so this has been an American, a very unfortunate American development in the game. When Knight hired Paul Justice to go on your shoe thing about two for a minute, when Knight hired Paul for Lady in the water, Knight was in a restaurant and Paul's coming down a set of steps, and he sees Paul's super sensible brown shoe and nights like, that's my guy. And this was at a point nightclub. He could have literally harassed Tom Hanks or Tom Cruise, and he hired Paul Giamatti. And the thing that the trigger point for him was the shoot. OK, that's one. Two Regarding T to enter shoes. People have asked me what was the single most impressive thing to you about being at the 2019 20 Masters? I'm going to give you a slightly longer answer than what I typically do. OK? I happen to be by pure happenstance. In a downstairs I was on the golf course. I like to be on the course, but at some point you can't really see what you want to say. So late on on that Sunday, I got myself into the clubhouse, which I can do get a special pass for that. And right next to me, by coincidence, was Chioda Erica Tiger's girlfriend, Tiger's two kids, a guy named Rob McNamara, who's one of Tiger's right-hand people and various others. So I was watching Tee to watching the tournament, and they're all sort of on edge, and Tina is just sort of taking it all in. And then there's this woman probably in her mid 70s, the dressed very sensibly because walking a golf course is a challenging thing. And she goes over this black. Well, you know, the you know, the the the architecture you're out of the clubhouse, you walk over this little lawn. She had to go over this black hanging chain to get sort of off the Oh, let's go to the backyard of the club onto the golf course proper. She got over it with no problem at all. You know, in other words, you could see she's about she had good balance, which is an athletic person herself. And then the single most powerful image of that entire tournament for me is there's a little rut raised hill. If you were looking at the green from coming up the 18th fairway and there's the green and gold to the left, the left, there's a hillock, let's call it on the left side. And all these people around and tiger is going to win the tournament and all Hell's going to break loose. And everyone's in that pre party mode like, you know, Times Square on New Year's Night and they're ready to explode. And I'm watching her watching Tiger and she's just taking it in and she's still she's still. And golf. Require stillness, so I don't recall the shoes, but I can guess she's probably so wearing your black Meryl's or the barrel, but but you know, the whole the Meryl's. That's the start of the of the of the sense, the sense of, you know, the whole just us whole sensible being. Well, I love the yeah, I love the way I would just say I love the the way the book talks about her. So many of the things written about Tiger, ignore her and you really make it a point that he's as much her son, if not more than Earl Son. Yeah. And I think Earl and and and Jeff and Armand do this extensively in their book. It's very easy to go down a certain path with Earl. I've heard it many, many times. Earl was a racist, Earl was a misogynist. Earl was an a*****e. Well, if you ever were around Earl and Tiger together, you can see it even in some of the clips that exist on YouTube. There was a deep, loving relationship between the two and just a great bond. And and I think as by the way, I got this from Arnold Palmer himself, and I think I would have made the observation myself. It took Tiger a long, long time to bury Earl. We don't know. None of us know to what degree we're playing or working or writing whatever we're doing. You know, with some kind of nod to our parents. Of course, these are parents. And one of the things that made this victory so special was that it represented a post. Earl Major the first really, you could imagine you could say, post Earl Major where he's doing it well, really for himself and with his kids watching. And you know, that's I loved that part of it, too. I really I really loved it. Just a couple more things. This went longer than I thought, Michael, because your book is so fascinating to me. And so I I hope you're OK that we went a little bit over an hour here to more. This is this is a vacation, Brian. OK, good. I'm glad. No, I mean, look, it's obviously the book really like triggered a lot in me. Why does your loyalty as a writer? I was so interested in how you wrote about Brandel Chamblee and Johnny Miller, who I think are two of the most hot button figures in the sort of the world of golf. And you made it a point to talk about how smart Brando was, and I thought it was interesting that you did that. Sort of right in the shadow of Brandel, having publicly been so wrong about something and in a way we would, I think, hold an athlete to a different standard if they had just missed the foul shots to win the the Championship. And to me, Brandel like, you know, shot two air balls with no time remaining to lose the Championship in the way he talked about, you know, the world's best golfer. So talk a little bit about what what it is that you appreciate about these kind of commenters about the game. Well, you know, I don't do live TV. I'd be lousy at it, but I would say of Brando or Johnny Miller or really anybody who's doing it. What you said earlier about when the writers are asking Tiger about Sergio and Tiger's response is golf's hard. You know, I think being commentators are too, and I think, you know, you're on a tightrope and you're going to blow some, you're going to get you're going to get some wrong. And as long as you are authentic and honest about what you're trying to do, I'm basically fine with it. Now, if you're just doing it to be provocative. Well, that's disgusting. But I don't believe Brad Meltzer. I think Brando Brando gets things wrong. He gets a lot right. And but basically, he's a, you know, a very informed, knowledgeable, caring golf person. And now, if I ever thought he was being provocative, just being provocative, I have a different feeling, but I don't have that. And Johnny Miller is brand old times three because Johnny Miller, he is not. I am not using this in a lightweight. I'm using it in a lightweight, but I don't intend to do. But it's almost like he's on the spectrum for golf. In other words, he just understands golf. You know, he may not understand the personalities. He just knows what it's like to try to win and knows what it's like to lose. And he knows what that ball sitting in that lie is going to do, and he knows that it's hard and he brings all that to it. So, you know, I love Tim McCarver when he used to do baseball because he had that same quality. You know, he's actually been there. He knows how hard it is. And, you know, we don't, and he's describing it to us. So, but do you do you find that my view of Brando's too is too gentle or too accepting? I know I'm sort of fascinated by by Brandel. I think he is really smart. I really I have a different take on Johnny Miller than you do for me in the last 10 years of his broadcasting career. I think he got off on being extra negative in a way, and I think that look, I think all the golf experts that I'm going to at some point have the time to do this. But I will say I remember very clearly when Tiger became declared that he was a pro and made the tour was going to go and play those seven tournaments. They asked like 100 figures either in Golf or Golf Digest. They asked, like 100 golf figures how Tiger was going to do many golf writers and when he would win his first major and stuff and everyone was in a little box. There was like the face of the guy who said it and then a little box and every single person predicted it would be years and that he was much like all the experts thought. It was impossible. And I've spent a lot of my life railing against the supposed gatekeepers and experts and in my world, you know, my foundational story is that rounder's was rejected by every agency. Oh, wow. So I've lived this over it. And you know, Tracy Chapman, who I worked with when I was young, was rejected by every label. And so I've lived this over and over again, watching the experts not want to accept this, the newcomer into and into their world. And so in a way, watching Brandel talk about Brooks because Brooks. Also like Tiger. I wasn't going to play the game in the language that Brandel grew up wanting to put on the game. Brooks is entire approach and so yes, I felt by the third major Brandel should just shut the f**k up and go. This is a game I know you don't like that comment. He's playing a game I don't recognize. I would have much rather brandel say, I don't know. I don't understand what this guy's doing. But obviously he's beyond what I can understand. So I'm going to sit back and watch. I would have preferred that person. I've had a very similar moment where Brandon will go crazy about the position of Tiger's right foot involved. And it's like Brandel. This guy has won 15 majors in 82 championships. He must be doing a lot, right? Well, let's listen. That's a great place. Unless there's anything you want to cover that I didn't get to know. If you don't mind, I'd be. If you don't mind Brian. If you don't want to go this way, I totally understand. Let's keep going. I'm happy to talk. Go ahead. What would you like to sell? What would you like to achieve in the game, in your own life? As someone who plays, as someone who watches, as someone who writes? Well, I find golf so hard fit, and while making the TV show, it's really difficult to become decent at it again. I was never as good as you, man. I got my the highest. The best I ever was was an eleven point three index, so that's not really a good golfer. That's just somebody who can break 90, basically. And I played to that for a number of years, but I can't play to it anymore. What I loved is last summer I played out in the Hamptons at a public, or I went to the Hamptons and friends took me to incredibly nice golf courses. But the best times I had were when my son and I would just walk to parks about the nine hole par three. Well, we would just carry our bags. Neither of us likes using a pool cart. We would carry our bags and walk two or three loops there. And honestly, that experience, which is the closest to the ship, is irons experience. In a way, you're carrying your own bag, you're playing in a place that isn't really manicured or that nice. There's the stakes are the same as you say, even at poxy, where when you come to a 63 yard par three and you know you should be able to hit your 60 degree to 10 feet, you find your and your son says to you five bucks closest to the hole and you stand over the ball and you've practiced a lot with that club for this spot. And in fact, that's your go to club, let's say. And you scull it you you understand it hurts. It can hurt and bother me for three days. And because it's a lack of a mastery over the self. It is a lack of mastery over your emotions. It is a lack of mastery over. It means something is not aligned. You were not able to perform up to your capability when the pressure was on the line. And what it makes you do is it makes you ask yourself. Golf makes you ask yourself very difficult questions if you're willing to ask yourself those questions. And I think your book does a great job of talking about the questions that Tiger Woods was asking himself as he was trying to see if he could do this again. And that does a good job of asking us all or some difficult questions about our own engagement with that journey and yourself. Personally, I think with your own questions about that journey because, for instance, you I would have liked, I would have liked one more. I want to ask you this. So you do talk about how the cops are known to let people go sometimes in that community. Right? And you don't really ask the question of whether or not they would have let Greg Norman go in that same spot. And I wonder what you think of Greg Norman is off to the side, and I know you think those officers were heroic and in a good way. You point out if they acted in a bunch of different ways, the thing could have turned tragic in different ways. It could have happened because we've seen it. We know that. We know that it does. Yeah. What do you think if Greg Norman is over to the side of the road like that and those officers approach him? Do you think Greg Norman gets arrested that night? Well, Greg Norman in 1987, there's no way they're driving him home to sleep it off, but you make sure you don't do it again. Greg Greg Norman 2017 Yeah, I think this in this particular community, I think people are doing things much more. But by the book, I think that's their training. You know, I think people are, you know, our children's age, we get kids nearly the same age. They just grew up with the game. My other goal in the game is to somehow find a way to be invited to join the membership it at National Golf at the National Golf Club, which I know is an impossible goal. That's my that's my other. My other goal is, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen. What about wine in your write, in your writing? Like what would you what role would you like golf to play a big lesson, Michael? I I. I love golf. I want to be able to get good at it again. I love walking a golf course. It it always features in our writing golf makes. There are references and allusions to golf throughout, you know, as you know, in billions, we reference it and we reference various different golf clubs. You reference various golf modes because I like you. I do believe it is a real test of character. Michael, what do you think? And this was where we'll will wrap up? And do you think that two things together? Do you think a career like yours is possible for someone starting out today in the world of writing about athletic endeavors? Can someone starting out today build a life with the same kind of toolkit you started out with in that world? And do you think that the place that Tiger Woods fills in in sport can come about again in the way the landscape currently exists? I do think to that to the first question, I do think the answer is yes. Now when when you were coming up as a writer and writing rounders, the idea this episodic series of very complex storytelling like billions didn't really exist. I don't think in it and it it developed and you developed with it and you found a way to do the thing you love and do well in a new format, so it might be different than it is now. But I think, broadly speaking, yes, definitely. I think people love to read. People love to be transported, you know, just as people love to get high and get drunk, to be transported. They love to read, to get transported and be inspired. And so, yes, I think it might take it might take a different form. But I think the written, written, the written word will definitely survive and thrive no matter what the delivery system is. And Tiger Woods the same because as you know, there was the boys in the boat, you know, we probably didn't know anything about that until that book is written. There was Seabiscuit, there was Tiger Woods after Tiger Woods. You know, there's some 12-Year-Old soccer player in Chile now that we know nothing about who's going to be Tiger, the Tiger Woods of soccer or football. And so, yes, I don't. I think there will be other other examples of it in other sports, in golf. And you know, the only thought I would have about that is that for my for my to combine the two things you're talking about here at the end is that my own writing life, I'll always be every bit as interested in the Ernie Els. And, you know, people who are that close and can't really get there, you know, like, I don't know, it's. Well, yeah, just to be that close and not really get there, either. As you know, we're looking for moments your character reveals itself and the character gets revealed itself more efficiently and more and more deeply in that by not winning than winning perfectly said, Hey, Michael, I'm about to sign off before I do. Do not close your browser until it says it's uploaded your audio to me. That's how I get the higher quality audio. So we're going to hang together for a second after I stop. OK. Hey, Michael Bamberger, I want to thank you so much for writing this book. First of all, I want to thank you for your courtesy to me at the Masters. You were very welcoming to me and in your your world when when I showed up there and you're a great writer, you're writing inspiration to me. You've written a couple of books that will always stay on my bookshelf. And thanks for that, and I will take you up on your offer to go play your golf course because I had to do child care the last time you invited me and I couldn't go. But kids are grownups now, so I can. Definitely, I can definitely come. Fantastic. Thank you, Brian. It was a pleasure. OK, let's oh everybody. Read Michael's book Second Life, Tiger Woods. It is outstanding. If you want to find me, I'm on social media at Brian Koppelman at Twitter. You can email me. The moment became at gmail.com. All right. Take care, Brad.