THE IMMORTAL HULK HOGAN

Transcript

Guys, this episode is so fun. We have the one and only Kate Kennedy from the Be There in Five pod, and we just we get into all of our favorite things, I would say. We get into all of our favorite things. We talk about the latest with Blake and Justin or something, you know, Lauren and I have to get into. We also talk about Meghan Markle and As Ever. This is a quintessential Pop Apologist podcast. We get into the Pookinator. We get into Ballerina Farm. We get into Donora Smith. Just so many of the women who live rent free in our brains full time. So it's such a fun episode, and Kate just has so many interesting thoughts. I love listening to her talk because she's clearly you know, she's working at a higher level sometimes, and she she has a lot to teach me. She unlocked some things about Pookie. So if you listen to the end, you're gonna hear some unsettling things that maybe we need to all come to grips with. And with that, enjoy the episode, everyone. Well, well, well, I'm so excited because today we are joined by the host of the Be There in Five podcast, Kate Kennedy. Kate is the author of One and a Millennial on friendship, feeling, fangirls, and fitting in. I'm so excited to have you here, Kate, because I have to tell you, when we were first starting our podcast, I kind of knew we had a lot of overlap. And I was like, I would just love to do a swap at some point. But to be honest, I was just, like, always too nervous to reach out because you were just, like, so successful. You're a big name to us. This is, like, so fun. Well, likewise. You guys have blown up, and I was shook when you reached out. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. And I love what you're doing in this space, and I feel like we have what we have in common is extracting meaning from pop culture. Yes. Precisely. We're we're anthropologists. We really are. We're scholars. We're historians. We're journalists. And today, we have subject matter to really dig into. So everyone knows we're doing everyone's planet knows that we are doing a series. Joanna's facial expression, whenever she looks at me on the pod, is always like, what's she gonna say? Like, what's happening? What's gonna come out of here? Room? What? Are you gonna make I'm dead. I'm I'm pure no. No. No. I'm ready. I'm I'm lit. I'm soaking it up. This is you. That's your facial camera. You know what? Honestly, and sometimes when you start talking, that is what I'm feeling inside. It is really fun to look at while I try to get a sense of tone. I'm working on my, like, neutral camera face. I need to try it. Because if it's not the person talking, sometimes you don't think the camera's, like, on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, my lip flip's not gonna let me get too expressive, but okay. Oh my god. Please, Lauren. Continue. I'm gonna new expression. Chandler is supporting you from across the room with a gorgeous grin, and we need to get into a little State of the Union on Blake and Justin. Everyone on this Earth knows, of course, that we're doing our big, you know, multipart series. Right now, our part seven, and we got in trouble. Someone says, I have unsubscribed as a subscriber. You have lost me because you did not address Jenny Slate with her complaint, her HR complaint. Didn't we, though? Well, we did. So we had to cut it from the episode because we didn't actually get to, like, the heart of the issue. Well, that'll happen sometimes. We were on a time crunch. So, anyway, we're gonna get to it now. So we're just gonna tie up a few loose ends, discuss The Hollywood Reporter article. This is not going to be another Justin and Blake episode, but I feel like we just need to make sure we're current on this topic so we don't lose any more subscribers. K? K. Jenny Slate filed an HR complaint, and she said that she basically needed to move apartments. And she didn't want to because she was gonna lose the $15,000 security department deposit. And Jamie Heath wrote back and was like, don't worry. Like, we'll take care of it. That's what we said on the pod. It was a department issue. We didn't get to so what her complaint was is that because she's not complaining that they're gonna give her more money. She complained because she said that the reason why is because Jamie Heath went into some long soliloquy about the sanctity of motherhood, and that is why Wayfarer would be happy to, like, make sure she was in a space that was, like, what she wanted. And this to her felt very, like, creepy and invasive, the way he talked about, quote, the sanctity of motherhood. That that was what we were apparently hiding. That is what we did not fully cover. I thought it was gonna be like the apartment was, like, too close to where Jamie Heath was staying, and she felt creeped out by him. No. But I think What do you make of this? I think then we're gonna get into it a little bit more, but I think that Justin and Jamie are clearly part of this Baha'i faith. Mhmm. I think that they're a little bit high on their own supply, their own spiritual supply. They're very hippie dippie, and I think they speak in a language that other people find very off putting and invasive. And it's almost like they have been too embroiled in their own community to not realize, like, this is weird for other people. You know? Yeah. I agree. I don't know how, you know, high control Baha'i is in terms of, like, taking over your vocabulary and kind of ways you interact with people, but I will say something that's common with religion, period, the end, is kind of that benevolent sexism where you kind of will talk positively about women while subjugating them. So it's kind of for example, one of their big principles is gender equality, but their highest institutional governance is all men. Women can't be and you guys are Mormon. Right? Yes. Yeah. So it's kind of similar in that it's like this benevolent effort to build women up, to talk about how women are, like, unique, and it sounds really good, but while also giving them no meaningful purpose. Yeah. So it's kind of a red flag for me. Are you a % sure on that? Only because Yes. Let me Okay. You are. Because I read that they were about abolishing the the priesthood and gender equality. But maybe that's a new So I read this this morning. And, guys, I'm not an expert on Baha'i and I want the Baha'i to come. I don't want you to don't come for me. I think it's fair to look at religion for how it, like, influences people's behavior in a secular space. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And, the universal house of justice is only men. And there's a lot of women in leadership positions, but that specifically is only men. But gender equality is a huge tenant of the faith. So it's not to say that they're inherently discriminatory or sexist, but I can understand how, as a person who used to be in evangelical spaces, you can be spoken to as a woman in a way that feels belittling in the name of empowering you, but only for you in relation to somebody else, like being a mother Yeah. Like, or daughter. How you're of service to other people. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. So, Kate, how did you grow up? I'm from Virginia, and I dabbled in, like, evangelical youth group vibes in high school. Okay. And so I have a lot of feelings about religion. Yeah. What what part of Virginia? Outside of Richmond. Okay. We're from Orange County, California, and I was listening to one of your podcast episodes yesterday, and you were saying how you, like, would have loved to have been, like, a Southern California kid. Yes. Like, idolized it because you watched OC and stuff like that. Well, I became obsessed with Virginia. So I've never heard in my life heard anybody say that. Yeah. Like, I still kinda am. Why? Colonial Williamsburg? No. I I fell in love with the artist's work or or I fell in love with the work of the We fell in love with the woman. Say it. I fell in love with a woman named Sally Mann. I watched this documentary about her. She's a famous she's a famous photographer. And I basically became, like, low key her stalker. Like, I was so obsessed, and she lives in Lexington, Virginia, not to dox her. But there's a whole there's a whole documentary. Ali Mann is worried about being doxed. There's a whole documentary behind her life. So I'm pretty sure anyway. Long story short, that's, like, some in her phone. All of her photography is, like, set around there, and so I think that's why he fell in love. I think because I was raised in the OC with, like, a lot of, like, very image conscious women, I'd beheld in this documentary, this very, like, intellectual, just kind of, like, salt of the earth, real woman of the land Yeah. Who, like, read literature and just was really smart and thought important thoughts. And I was like, that is what I want out of my life. And I also just thought the landscape was so beautiful. And so I literally was so in love with it. I mean, I mean, yeah. I was gonna say you're bearing the lead. She, like, Lauren, like, went there. Lauren was, like we were in college. She was, like, well, I'm gonna be moving to Virginia at the end of this year. Like, after I graduate a five year fix. And she went and traveled there, and you had, like, a week you did a weekend there. Yeah. And then I was just like, oh, there's just, like, no one I could date here. There was, like, barely anywhere in this town. Yeah. And then I also found myself, like right next to a farm, and I'm like, this is now f**king weird. I am like You found yourself, AKA you looked up the farm, and I got myself in a driveway. And I was like, get away from this port. Like, this is weird. Oh my gosh. I cannot believe I've tell I've told this story again where we have now much more listeners. I am all for pop culture tourism. Listen. I I've been to Forks, Washington. Like I get it. But it is funny for you to think of Virginia women being, like, salt of the I mean, I was down the street at college, like, wearing a Charlotte Russe top and singeing my hair with a straightener. Like, we it's not really the collective vibe, but I love that for Sally. Yeah. I was very naive and delusional about about what I would find there. Also, to to add a layer of context to our Orange County upbringing, we were, like, we were raised in, like, yeah, in a beach town, but we were also, like, Mormon, heavily Mormon. Mhmm. So it wasn't like we were in, like, string bikinis, like, feeling ourselves on surfboards. It was like we were well, first of all, neither of us are athletic at all. Also, Lauren didn't like the beach. We were not not we were only allowed to wear one pieces. We weren't living that southern We were not living that life necessarily. One pieces were, like, hot. Yes. I remember getting a tankini and my mom being like, well, we'll sew it. Like a monokini. Yes. Yes. So, anyway, it wasn't it wasn't exactly the OC dream No. How people see you. No. We were not living that lifestyle. And I just wanna make it very clear. I did not actually go on the farm. I was like, I didn't Oh my gosh. Nobody is worried about this. Okay. I just wanna make it clear. I didn't fully stock. I came close. But anyway, Kate, no. So, that's so interesting. But you have Utah ties. Right? Or do you have any Utah ties? No. I have been chronically online since AOL Instant Messenger, and I loved blogs back in the day. They were, like, my form of celebrity. And I just noticed throughout the twenty tens that every single blogger I followed was Mormon. Mhmm. And so by the time I started podcasting, it became kind of a big theme of my podcast because at the time, there wasn't a lot of discourse about influencers as celebrities Yeah. When I started seven years ago. So I've just done a lot of investigative work about the Mormon faith, but also in the context of growing up in in the evangelical space and kind of there's a lot of parallels there Mhmm. That I've kind of had to undo with, like, purity culture and stuff as an adult. Yeah. So I don't I'm actually not an expert at all. Just as I'm not an expert in the Baha'i faith, I should probably keep my mouth shut. But I think it's really interesting to talk about as women because religion is something that's so hard to criticize because it seems so positive on the surface, but you have to be mindful of how it can kind of subjugate women on the inside. Yeah. Well, I honestly think I mean, it's a perfect tee up because I have it in my outline we need to get to, and I think this is good. Let's kind of, like, let's kinda roam around. We'll get back to Justin and Blake. Let's keep it freewheeling. Okay. But it's kind of a perfect moment to touch on Ballerina Farm and your thoughts on Hannah because I do think that is, like, the central criticism people have is, like, she's basically glamorizing subjugation. Some people will say it's knowingly. Some people will say it's unwillingly. So Yeah. What do you think? I mean, first of all, I know she's enjoying her Irish cooking school, but I do think she should go to Greece. It's about time. That's all she wanted was not that egg, Abram, but just to get to go to Greece. I think that she is a person that's a product of her environment that has now come to represent a system that she's a part of, and I think it's pretty inadvertent. Now that they're engaging more politically with what is it? LV The magazine. E v magazine. Yeah. It's a hard balance because I think people can, like, live their lives, but I and not be responsible for, like, the systems that they represent. Yeah. And I think sometimes people put a little bit too much on her because homesteading, I gather, especially within more extremities of the Mormon faith, like, is something that's kind of desirable. Right? Like Mhmm. Living off the land, being industrious. When I had Heather Gaye on my podcast, she was like, if you're within the constraints of, like, a homemaker type, you kind of do everything you can to, like, exercise your skills. And then when you max those out, all you can do is, like, reboot civilization. Mhmm. So she kind of positioned trad wives as, like, okay. I've done everything else. I have to stay within the confines of my home, though, so now let's just live off the land. And I thought that was kind of an interesting way to look at it, but I I don't know. I think that she's become kind of a lightning rod Yeah. For a lot of issues. And yeah. Well, I think you're entitled to believe what you want. I do hate when it overlaps with spaces that are politically charged like Evie. And it I would be lying if I said it, you know, didn't bother me, but, like, I want her to live also. Yeah. I I feel like with the whole Evie thing, I was just disappointed she didn't hold out for Vogue. Like, she's such a phenomenon at this point. She didn't need to go to this, like, startup right wing magazine. You know, I'm a friend to all people, all communities, so I don't use that term pejoratively. But I just think that, like, it was upsetting to me that, honestly, she just wasn't, like, in a higher brow publication. That's an interesting point. She probably is higher level now. Complete much much higher level than EV magazine. She I think she literally could have a a spread of both. Yeah. Before even before the, like, the British publication that you know, even before that, like, viral moment of last year, she had 7,000,000 followers or something. Like, she is huge. Yeah. And so she absolutely could have been on I mean, I didn't even know AV magazine existed until we got the Hot Milk Maid cover. Yeah. Right. Of of course. Because it's yeah. Anyway, we'll we'll we try to stay apolitical on this podcast. French. Okay. That's good to know. Yeah. Yeah. I but I also like just to add to that, like, I didn't even know that it was a politically charged magazine. I just never heard of it. I just didn't even know it existed. So what do you think then of Nora Smith? I mean, I I kind of like to let people live. I don't know. I think that there's a baseline entertainment value in people that don't live anything like me. And I think you can see it as a problem, you can see it as aspirational, or you can just take it for what it is, which is entertainment. Yeah. And, obviously, her lifestyle is not realistic for most people, and I don't really internalize that as, like, her putting pressure on women to be like her. Right. I think Hannah's earnest. I think Nara's more tongue than she. Agreed. And I think Hannah, given the way that she was such a competitive ballerina, she's now taken kind of I think, like, being a woman as, like, her competition she's winning now and, like, the woman especially under the eyes of, like, the patriarchy, which is, like, breeding, beauty, being in service to a ton of different people. But I think Nora Smith is much more satirical, but Chandler disagrees. I mean, I think her work is satirical. I just think the way she engages with, like, online community and her fans is is not satirical. It's earnest. She it doesn't, to me, feel like she's in on the joke when she's, like, like, people, you know like, the comment section is fully loving it for the the satire that it is, but her response to that is just always earnest. And I think my other issue with her is she is very young, and she, like, met Lucky when she was, like I think she was, like, not even 18 yet. And I think Lucky has some, like, has an interesting backstory. And, yeah, I I think that with Hannah, you see her, and she has, like, sweat on her brow. And, like, I I think I just, like, prefer a more, like even if it is curated, a more realistic interpretation on Instagram of whatever hard work you're doing. I don't necessarily love the I'm in lace gloves making gum at 1AM for my husband, mind you. It totally changes if it's satire or not. And in our perspective, being more satirical is kind of like, I'm not gonna overthink this. But if she is literally needing to hand make gum because her husband needs it at all hours, That is a tremendous issue that I would feel very differently about. So that's interesting. I kinda thought she had an Emily Mariko approach to her audience where she, like, doesn't really engage. Well, I just like, she then maybe that is, like, what I'm responding to. Like, she doesn't, like, she doesn't seem in on the joke when she's responding to them at all. Or it's like, people are like, this is amazing. Or she's like, thank you. Or, like, you know, I can't believe you did this. And it's just all very neutral. Okay. Which, like, it could just be her strategy. She's like to commit to the bit. She might also just trigger me, and that might be, like, actually the the bull's eye here. I mean, she's too hot for me to follow. So She's so she's so beautiful. And I actually she shared stuff about her, like, skin condition anyway. I actually think I need to do some, like, inner work with my, like, Nara. You have therapy this week. Right? Usually. Fridays. I also think, like and I do this too. In our work, it's like you kind of work overtime to feel like you need to explain or have a valid reason for somebody not being your vibe. Yeah. I also think it's okay for somebody just not be your vibe. Totally. You know? And that that's also what I think it is. Like, we we've talked about this before. Like, I think there are people who get on Instagram for, like, aspirational content, and then there are people who get on there for, you know, just more, like, realistic people like them. And I think that, like, I I tend to, like, not be as obsessed with, like, the aspirational side of Instagram, I guess, which I think maybe that's that's what she does. But that's amazing. Go women. Go women. Okay. We need to get back to Jake and Jake Jake and Bluston. I I got you guys off topic. No. No. You're good. No. It's great. Also, yeah, I have more to say on Nora, and I'm controlling myself to to get back to Blake and Justin because So I want to also get into the Hollywood Reporter article. What were you gonna say? Can we close the loop fully on Jenny Slate's company? Of motherhood. And if do we have any more details about what that conversation Yeah. No. We have no more details, but I'm gonna read part of this article, which I think will elucidate that conversation. For you. Okay? Lauren, you and I both have a trip coming up where we are wanting to look our best. Mhmm. Thank goodness we have clean Simple Eats. I had a scoop of the Simply Vanilla this morning just mixed with cold water. I swear, everyone, it tasted like melted ice cream. It's so good, and it gives you the cleanest energy. It just it feels amazing. It's twenty grams of clean grass fed protein. I'm so obsessed with Clean Simple Eats protein powder. I'm so grateful they're a sponsor. Everyone go to cleansimpleeats.com. 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Lauren, so a friend was telling me the other day how much she loves the early bird tincture. She says it's, like, the best night sleep of her life and that's a very, like, subtle feeling. Okay. I need to try the tincture. I've only tried the gummies. You know I'm obsessed with the gummies. I've turned on so many fronts to them. I feel like what's special about EarlyBird is the formulation. It's twelve point five milligrams CBD, two point five milligrams THC. So it just makes you feel so warm and melty, relaxed, gooey. Yeah. I feel like there's no worry that I'm going to be two in my head. Mhmm. It's just cozy and it's just an easy way to take the edge off and have the most amazing night's sleep. You guys, you have not tried early bird gummies. They're a life changer. And, honestly, the bottle is big. It lasts a long time. Go to earlybirdcbd.com. Use code pop 20 for 20% off. A big discount. Huge discount. Earlybirdcbd.com. Use code pop 20 for 20% off. Okay. So the entire article in The Hollywood Reporter that just dropped, did you guys see the illustration? Mhmm. It was of, like, Blake using a phone as a slingshot towards Justin Baldoni, and her team has, like, already released a statement that she's, like, enraged over this, which she calls a sexist cover that is just, like, promoting all these false images about women that are super damaging, especially women who come forward against perpetrators of sexual harassment or assault. So that is what Blake has to say about this article. In terms of the actual content, it's really focused on the Baha'i faith and how the Baha'i faith was potentially what unwittingly had Jamie and Justin kind of creeping people out. Interesting. Yeah. So here this is what it reads. I'm just gonna read some of it. So it says, over the past several weeks, Hollywood Reporter has interviewed multiple friends and former colleagues of Aldoni along with members of the Baha'i community, to piece together if and how this religion might have inadvertently contributed to this situation. Baldoni has made no secret about his devotion to the Baha'i faith, which is based on notions of humanity, universalism, and gender equality. What's also clear from talking to people in his orbit is that Baldoni has his own unique way of communicating and behaving, much of it informed by the tenor of his religion. His unique mannerisms have at times come into conflict with Hollywood's current ethos, which in the wake of hashtag me too and black lives matter movements in the COVID pandemic, has become far more rigid, uniform, and structured, uniform, and policed. A source who worked on It Ends With Us said, the Justin that I know isn't capable of doing the things that he's being accused of because he truly sees himself as this feminist. But Blake clearly got grossed out. I honestly feel like it was the perfect storm of two opposing personalities. When Baldoni and Wayfair executives hold meetings, they often start by asking participants to go around the table and share something private, something that brings them, quote, joy. And that has nothing to do with with their jobs or their career. That is giving, like, Nexium to me That's very collateral. Rachel Hollis trauma bonding, yeah, MLM conference. I don't know. And so it says in certain professional circles, like, say, those of a yoga instructor or doulas, this type of icebreaker might be welcomed. But among time crunched agents, entertainment lawyers, and studio executives, folks not exactly known for their touchy feely ways, a gesture of this nature comes with risks. In my head, this is a female executive giving a quote at a production company I worked with them. She says, in my head, I was like, I'm sorry. Are we at Cafe f**king Gratitude? Why are you opposing your culture on this meeting that's being held at our offices? That was yeah. I think gratitude. I think that, like, that that hits the nail in the head of a a perfect storm or perfect clash between, like, personalities and cultures, and I think you're more emboldened to operate as a culture if Justin, Jamie, and Steve are all part of the particular faith. Even the actor brought in to do the Burseen part of the Baha'i faith. Mhmm. So I think that there's probably a dominating cultural force there of what's normal to them that they might have not even realized was off putting to other people because, like you said, they're so in their own world. Well and if you saw the text from Justin to Blake, it was one of the texts in the complaint. He said, like, we live up in Ojai. We have a very tight circle. We basically, like, never leave our community. So I think it's something where they don't realize how weird their stuff comes across to other people because they're just so mired in it where they live. I completely agree. And I think also then if you combine that mentality with working on a film about, you know, subject matter that's very heavy, where you all of a sudden feel like you have this righteous, like, cause, you then feel, like, even more emboldened to, like, overlay your faith and whatever your belief system Mhmm. You know, and to infuse it into the entire production. If you're not a religious person, you know, you would feel uncomfortable maybe participating in it. Well, so someone that worked on the set of Five Feet Apart, which is another movie he directed, said that he talked about his religion a lot. It has shades of Scientology, but with less prominence and people hovering all the time. And another source who worked on that film said, I've never worked with a male director who was so worried about everyone's emotional and mental well-being as Justin. There was an openness and emotionality to his style that was more typical of a woman. And And it probably wouldn't be an issue if it was a female director because of the preconceived notions of gender. But if you get a bunch of teamsters together who are told that they should share their feelings, of course, someone is going to ask, why is he such a freak? But Justin genuinely believes that if we do this, we'll work better as a group. There's a little bit of arrogance to it. It's like he doesn't want to acknowledge the world that we live in. I think this is why this situation is so challenging. I don't know where where you guys fall. I ebb and flow a bit with evidence presented. I hear less about, like, a team and more so diving into all of it, but I don't think Justin's a predator. I've always kind of felt like it's a lot of either he was a green director that kind of looked over a lot of safeguards that needed to be in place, like, you know, managing expectations or choreographing a scene if the kissing was or wasn't expected, and him not saying no when she wanted to involve herself, or it was a matter of interpretation where he has less boundaries than your average person, and that can be internalized in different ways. And I just think that it's really yeah. I I think that the religion piece is adds an interesting layer in terms of how, like, the overall vibe and culture of the movie based on how many leaders were a part of it could have just made the girls feel a little bit, like, gaslit. Like, does anyone else see this? Like, this isn't normal for this sort of type of environment Yes. Type thing. You know what I mean? For sure, and especially when you hear in the context of they're really getting so mushy gushy into their feelings and asking, like, invasive questions about and wanting to talk about the sanctity of your motherhood when you were just talking about, like, your, you know, residence situation or where you're staying. I think that you can understand how all of a sudden it just would have started to feel just very, like, I'm thinking invasive kind of I feel like I've said that word too much, but just very, like, inappropriate. Inappropriate in a professional setting. Like, I actually don't wanna talk about something private that has nothing to do with my job that, like, brings me joy. It feels like you're asking me for, like, private information for some sort of, like, a weird leverage. You know? Yeah. And I think that's why I brought up earlier, like, the benevolent sexism piece. Because even I was watching I saw a TikTok, like, Perez Hilton being like, oh, sorry for being grateful. Sorry for offering you money type thing. It's like, well, that's just it. There is how nice it looks on the surface to offer somebody, because that was it, right? He offered to pay the security deposit sheet. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, that's a nice gesture. I I think we'd all acknowledge that. But I think there's a lot missing as this happens a lot, unfortunately. We didn't get a lot of specifics in that amended complaint. Mhmm. And I need, like, language. Mhmm. Because the way it's described, it doesn't sound that damning. But if I'm to look deeper, I can understand how the way it was positioned could be really off putting. So I it's like I there's validity in both responses to, like, that's really nice, and also there could be something deeper and creepier there. Well, I mean, think about it this way. What if she was a man who came with the same complaint or same issue that she needed to or that he needed to move, and they were like, yes. The sanctity of fatherhood or the sanctity of being a husband must be upheld. And it's like, well, I'm actually just an act an hired actor. I don't need to get into your notions of my domestic role and, like, how I should be fulfilling that. Maybe there was some element of mom shaming in that where it's like, you know? Like, it's your duty as a mother to provide them with the Yeah. Space. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I I can see how that's almost it's just very unprofessional. You know? Yeah. And I think, like, all of this is true and incorrect, like, both of your takes. But what I keep coming back to is, like, but was there sexual harassment? Was there harassment? Right. And that is where we read that alleged complaint that was leaked last week where very, like, overt actions were described. And allegedly, Justin putting his hands on one of the female actors. But while he was trying to I did not read that. Her posture. We and we don't know if this is true. This is a leaked document, and we it could just be BS. So It could just be BS. And so, anyway, we read that last week, and we're just, like, that to me, that's not in the gray, you know, of course. Yeah. And so, anyway, I like if that's not true, then, like, was there true harassment? Or was it an uncomfortable working environment but because these guys are woo woo? And you were just like, let's just keep it professional. Like, leave your religious beliefs at the door, you know, or whatever. That's where I I continue to struggle with Blake's side of things. Mhmm. Okay. So listen to this little detail. It says, on the first day of filming, several members of the crew participated in a Baha'i prayer. Other sources report that Baldoni frequently would, quote, ask God for guidance before making big creative decisions on the film. Like, in front of everybody? Yes. I guess. He did need help given that it was given given her outfit, I think. The choice. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Do that on your own time. It you can worship however you please, but I yeah. I think in a secular space, in a workplace environment, if other people feel it's being thrust onto them, that's a source for discomfort. Right. In that amended complaint, Blake was, like, quoting texts, but not showing screenshots. Is my huge problem with that entire with her amended complaint is that, like, unfortunately, you know, Justin gave us full screenshots, and she just gave us, like, quotes from text messages from what she sent and, like, what other people sent, and it just it did still feel cherry picked. Yeah. I I was kinda surprised by that because the smoking gun would be other women coming forward and having concrete complaints. And they said, like, in their selective text that wasn't a screenshot, they would say, like, we have this in writing, but no Well, we're not gonna show it to you. And I'm I don't know if they're holding out till trial or whatever, but they seem pretty confident that, like, the truth will come to light Yeah. For trial. Both sides do. Both sides do. And, like, I think one of the quote texts that were that was in her amended complaint said something about, like I think it was about, you know, after they'd agreed to the list of, like, demands or whatever when they went back to filming. It was like, it's alright. You never have to hug him or something like he won't touch you. And that, to me, that's pretty damning. That's pretty indicative of a type of work environment where you don't feel safe as a woman or you feel like there's been harassment. But I also am just like, okay. So what else happened? Or can you share who that was with or, you know, why honestly, I wanna know the text before that and the text after that. I thought the quoted texts were very telling and really supported the argument that Blake was using her leverage not to take over the movie, but on behalf of the other actors as a woman in the more powerful position to say no more of this. Mhmm. And it's interesting because in Justin's complaint, he said that, like, why would she try to get I don't know if it was the intimacy coordinator or what it was for the Isabella, the other actress, when her, like, sex scenes were already done. Yeah. But Blake went out of her way to include, like, this is also for the other. So I do think that's interesting context that she wasn't doing it just on her own behalf. Right. And I think when we were first reading through his complaint, we had a very ungenerous interpretation of that. We thought maybe she just wanna control over her image to the extent of even, like, the other cast member cast as the young version of her. But it makes more sense, and I think it's less of a reach to say, no. This was her way of protecting that cast member and her way of having some sort of oversight over Isabelle's participation and the scenes. The hard part with all this, and I know we should probably move on to another subject because now we're we're recording part eight. But with this young actress actor are you supposed to say actor or actress? I never know. Is it, like, actors more, like, PC? Like server waitress? Yes. I don't know. Yeah. Like actresses. Young actresses. I think, to me, just one back best actress in mind. Okay. So you're saying comedienne. Yeah. Don't worry, Chandler. You could speak freely here at this same space. So but with Isabella, she sent a text to Justin after production, which was in his complaint or his lawsuit that said, like, all of these nice things. And then one of the sentences literally said, thank you for making it such a comfortable production. And I just fundamentally think you would not have used that word if you felt like this guy was creepy. Yeah. Maybe you feel maybe you needed to kiss his a*s. You needed to send a text thanking him for being a director or whatever. I just do not think you would have used the word comfortable as a woman if you really felt like this guy was a creep. Mhmm. That's why this case is endlessly interesting. It's because there's just little nuggets that, you know, support each side. I would say most nuggets support Justin's side. And, unfortunately, Blake seems to continue to not present actual evidence, and it's just a lot of hearsay. And it's a lot of, well, I texted this person, but I'm not gonna actually give you the screenshot. Like you said, Kate, this is in writing, but you can't see the primary text. Yeah. I'm just gonna summarize it. Some pieces of communications that hopefully we will see and is being theorized, we will see are subpoena text messages between Blake Lively and Taylor Swift. No way. They are oh, yeah. They are going after her messages with Taylor Swift because she's going after every single phone call. Like, any she wants, like, the call logs. She wants his text messages. She wants everything for the past, like, three years from him, Two or three years. And what I've seen is that his attorney is now saying, well, we want all of your communications with Taylor Swift that could have anything to do with this. So can you imagine if we get the text, like, first Super Bowl that Taylor went to? And Blake's like, I think I'm gonna wear this tracksuit and do my hair really big. Like, and I I was like, what if you wear 40 bracelets? 40 bracelets. Hold on each arm of your dress. Well, I I think that this is a wake up call for me personally that, like, even if something isn't about you, your text can still be subpoenaed. You know? It's really scary, actually. I had to wake up call. Scary. I actually just had no idea. So, like, now I'm just gonna sound like an idiot, but can they just go delete them? Like, how does this work? Yeah. Like, when you were at Sally's house and looking up, like, texting, I'm outside the door, can you totally No. %. Can there be some revisionist history, or is that something you go to jail for? I mean, I literally didn't get like this. I think unless you were on, like, maybe an encrypted actually, I don't even know. I I don't know. Maybe WhatsApp is the WhatsApp WhatsApp is, like it would be very hard for me to imagine that these celebrities aren't all on some sort of, like, encrypted auto delete. Well, but what's interesting is I think a lot of them are, like, iOS messages. Like, the we like, iOS screenshots, not, like, WhatsApp's rules. Anyway or maybe they are, and I actually I'm totally out of my depth here. But I would believe that you can literally subpoena, like, messages from especially from Apple. Popapologists is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. 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I mean, Taylor has no problem supporting her friends when they are, like, getting negative publicity or anything. I mean, think about, like, Sophie Turner. It's a different situation, but when Sophie Turner was, like, going through the divorce with Joe Jonas and all that news was coming out about how she was a party girl, but then, like, Taylor, like, welcomed her with open arms, and she was with Taylor, staying at Taylor's apartment. And it was like, okay. Clearly, Taylor doesn't think she's done anything wrong. Mhmm. I think Taylor has obviously, just has so much power in in the media, and I think it is absolutely a sign that she is not doing anything to, like, help Blake in terms of just some PR walks or PAP walks. No. I mean, I also think that if Blake was genuinely sexually harassed and Taylor knew it, Taylor, there's just no way in hell Taylor would be like, alright. Well, I'm gonna leave you out to dry. Like, I'm just going to not show any allegiance towards you. I'm gonna have articles coming out that I'm backing away from the friendship. I almost feel like Taylor would, like, literally double down. She would post on Instagram herself to make it so clear that she's, like, on team Blake. Especially when all those other celebrities did too. And when Blake's stuff first came came out, like, so many celebrities were, like Yes. Reposting it, like, so brave. Like, they're just celebrities across, like, the gamut. Gwyneth, it is fishy that we are not here with Taylor. Kate is joining us on the podcast. Yeah. We are totally just like Where are you? Taylor from. This is what you imagine in your head when you're listening to your podcast. I can't I'm like, actually here. I'm like, oh. You're like, you're in my ears, so I'm enjoying it. But I think that I've always felt what was confusing is if there were ever an example of somebody that appropriately and meaningfully handled a sexual harassment case, based on their position of power, it's Taylor Swift. The symbolic dollar, she donated so much money to different funds that represented a cross section of different issues involving workplace harassment, sexual harassment. She went out of her way to, like, that whole case, the language she used, the dollar she sued for, like, it all was about wielding her power to make a point. Mhmm. And this case is the inverse of that. It's like a lot of back and forth that serves both of their individual careers, egos, and images. Mhmm. And I think that if Blake hadn't dropped the ball in promoting the movie and lost sight of the bigger picture, I would have more faith in her to kind of do the right thing and make this whole circus about something bigger than her and about supporting women in her position in the workplace and workplace safeguards involved with actresses, intimate scenes, whatever. But, like, it doesn't seem about that. Yeah. And her claims are valid in the sense that, like, if you're uncomfortable, you're uncomfortable, but a court of law is going to have a threshold for what it deems as legitimate harassment. So I don't doubt that, and and it well, I guess we'll see when it goes to trial. But Taylor Swift's approach, I think, was kind of ahead of her time in a way. And I'm surprised that, yeah, we haven't heard from her, and I'm surprised that Blake hasn't done something like a smidge more altruistic or corrective given how much scrutiny she was under for not handling the support of women Mhmm. During the promotion. Does that make sense? I mean, it's, like, never too late to start caring about this about this stuff. I just wish she would show she cares. Mhmm. Curious for your, like what were your quick thoughts about the SNL appearance from them and then also the dragons text? Because you're, like yeah. Just because you're a Taylor person. Oh, I am a Taylor person? She's never seen Game of Thrones. So I feel like I totally missed. I mean, the dragons thing was just kind of, like, cringey Yeah. Generalized cringe. Yeah. But SNL, my gut reaction was, oh, it's as if Blake didn't know he she was he was gonna say that because I thought she seemed genuinely, like, shocked and irritated. I was like, is she that good of an actress? But then the entire Internet was like, she's in on it, and I was like, I'm an idiot. I don't actually know. I just think that it so obviously doesn't serve their cause because if you're gonna make an argument, for example, that, like, The Hollywood Reporter article is making a mockery of the situation, it's like, well, that made a mockery of the situation. Yes. So which is it? I don't know if I would have, breached into comedy territory just yet. Yeah. I think it was, like, a good thing for them to go to show that they're not, you know, shunned in those circles. Yeah. Then making a joke of it would just felt off tonally. Do you think Kevin Costner was really, like, annoyed, or was he just not paying attention? He's in on it. I think it was he he was in the voice going. I had no clue. Also, his whatever tanning and, like, tone. His his tan was really weird, and I feel like he was getting some type of blonde toning to his hair that was really bad. Anyway, the notes for his hair colorist. And we talk a lot about him on the pod. Okay. Another woman who, you know, captivates us with everything she does ready. On this Earth. One Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle. We need to discuss as ever. We need to discuss with love, Meghan. I mean, you wrote in the outline you sent me for some topics that you could talk about Meg Markle forever. Likewise. I could think about her forever. She lives around free of my brain twenty four seven. I don't have this overwhelming desire to never give her the benefit of the doubt that I think other people have. Same. And I think she is, like, at once the most earnest and self unaware person ever. And I just think watching her move through the world and move through this era of their life is a little bit confusing. But I also have tremendous empathy for how there's a a real loss of identity and a way of not knowing how to be when you are under a microscope like she is. I wouldn't know what to do with my arms and hands if I were her. Like, everything she does is torn apart, and I actually think as ever, per literally the definition of that, you know, phrase salutation, this is like a return back to her original state. This is the Tig. This is Mhmm. The 2016 blogger era that she never she's still at the restaurant. Like, I think she is I think it's going to be a little bit hilariously out of touch and curated like Instagram was in 2016, and that's what I'm excited. Oh, the the aesthetic is wedding photography. Yeah. I don't know if you guys have picked up on that, but it's fully, like, a wedding photography vibe and aesthetic. Like, the mood board or her bulletin board. Well, even just, like, this photography style and just the entire brand, I think, is going to be this, like they call it fine art film photography, and it's with a specific kind of camera, with a specific type of film. And it's high res. It's well, it's Contax six four five with a actually, a very wide aperture, so it's very we'll be proud. It's very blurry and very pastel tones. Yeah. And, anyway, if you look up fine art film photography, it you'll see the exact same brand. And it's actually like, some of the most talented people in that field live in Santa Barbara, so I can understand how she was influenced. But I think that that aesthetic actually just perfectly encapsulates what people find disingenuous about Megan, which is that she's so curated. Everything is always so perfect that it comes across as disingenuous, and, like, you don't know the real real her. That's what Bethenny Frankel, she weighed in, of course, at 2AM, you know, from bed, and she said that Megan has an authenticity problem. People don't know they don't know what her real identity is. They don't know who she is. And it seems to me like this is a continuation of that, like, this brand. I feel like even just seeing the rollout, and I want to like her. Literally, I want to like her. I read Fighting Freedom. I have as my Instagram bio that I was Meghan Markle's defense attorney for, like, a long time. So I want to like her, but it's just, like, give me a little something. Like, I am not looking for videos of your landscaping. No more roses. The stray child's hand in the gra*s. It's It's just like, can I have a sultry selfie? Can I have, like, an edgy, blingy moment with a glass of wine? I don't know. Like, why is it all so g rated? I agree with you, and I'm excited for that. Like, I think there's something funny about, like, the years of her life where she had to turn inward with such turmoil and scrutiny and where they escaped. Like, they escaped in 2020. I think the the world and the way we view influencers and celebrities fundamentally changed during that era where there was a meaningful shift from aspiration to authenticity. Mhmm. And people really want you to be relatable now in a way that that was not the case in the mid twenty tens when The Tig was at its peak. And she wants to be like, yeah, probably like a Barefoot Contessa, Martha Stewart, lifestyle curator vibe that I I almost don't know if she doesn't realize that that doesn't quite land anymore, and I think it'll be interesting. But I also feel confused because when some people do that sort of stuff, like Wishbone Kitchen, for example. Like, if she does, like, a really beautiful tablescape and a meal and all this stuff, like, people love it, but if Meghan will do it, it's kind of, like, disingenuous and try hard and curated. And I just think it's a little confusing because if we're taking her out of it, that type of content, I am interested in. If it's, like, hacks and how tos and food and crafts and whatever, like, sure. Sign me up. But there's something about assigning her to it that, like, kind of I don't know. I think what we're missing with Megan is a critical understanding of, like, what she's truly good at and interested in. Because I think, like, okay. Like, I I know I'm here for the curated content. If I feel like you actually are an amazing chef Mhmm. Or if you're any of these things, but she just to me, I'm like, jam? Can you like jam? I like living in beautiful homes, which doesn't necessarily make you an, an, by default, interesting person. Yes. You know? And so I'm just missing, like, where does Megan plug into one of these things in a way that's, like, innate to her? More than just being a beautiful person with, you know, expensive taste and, you know, wanting to curate that. But what I will say is I do think her video announcing as ever Mhmm. Was her attempt at being less curated. Yes. That's great. And I think it was I think, to me, that was like, okay. She's listening. Thank you for listening. We and I I I think that compared to even just, like, the Netflix trailer for, With Love, I think it was, like, it was dressed down, and I totally appreciated that. One other thing to your point about why is she always so g rated, I believe I believe she's a g rated person to begin with. I don't think she's Sure. As crass as you and I are. Let's just say watch a Disney movie. I wanna be like Yeah. She's always been earnest and and kinda more PG of a girl, which is great. It's very become becoming the unbecoming As our dad would say. As our dad would parents would say. And I think too, she is still married to a prince. And I do think you that when you sign up for that, you do take on a level of, like, okay. I probably can't say the c word on my podcast. You know? Like, I just I think there's a mantle of decorum that is placed on you that I think she has to carry forward. Heavy as the crown. Heavy is a f**king crown. Vanderpump would say. I don't know if you've gone through, like, the archives of The Tig, but, like Oh, no. The Tig is the what this show is. So I think that's why I think it's, like, a return to her baseline existence, which is authentic. Yeah. What she's good at, to your point, I don't know if it's specific categories like florals, landscaping, cooking, hosting, but I think she's, like, kind of blogger y in that she's an expert curator. Yeah. Yeah. And I think she's an expert at, like, curating an aesthetic, which is kind of hollow Yeah. And does have its limits. And Right. So I do I think that's a really, yeah, fair point. And I think it would at this point, it's like anything she does, however curated, it there's going to be a lot of people polarized. So she might as well just, like, lean into being goofy, being more honest, being more transparent. Like, I actually would really like if she loosened up a bit. And I think her being tense is a function of the scrutiny, but I at this point, it's so hard to win with the general population. You might as well just try something different. Yeah. I mean, also, I feel like we don't know what's coming. There could be something different in the Netflix series. Like, she could be a little bit more unguarded. Maybe she's not gonna try to present herself as this, like, expert homemaker. Maybe she's gonna be like, I've always wanted to live in a house like this. I've always wanted to be able to, like, have these moments, and I brought in Brie and expert friends to, like, show me. Like, I feel like, you know, we just recorded an episode with the designer who helped me with the space in Brooklyn. And I did not come into that recording. Like, I had an exact vision for what I wanted brought to life. Like, I was like, no. I honestly feel like we're unsure of myself and my decisions. I needed an expert. And, hopefully, Megan took you know, had a similar approach where if she's not a subject matter expert, there is a, like, realness to it. And it's not like, oh, I'm an amazing chef. Watch me, you know, make ice cubes with flowers in them. Yeah. That makes sense. That's a great point. I I'm hopeful for that, but I do think it's going to be I think the the silliest thing on it is gonna be, like, her getting flour on her nose. You know? Like, I know Yeah. I'm so messy. I think. But, yeah, I think that per the Bethany of it all too, one thing I'll say, I am curious if Netflix has somewhat of a Bethany clause, you know, like the Bethany clause with Broadway to get a chunk of your business. I thought it was interesting. She said in that video, Netflix, they are distributing my show, but they came on as a partner of As Ever. Yes. And I thought that was interesting. Well, I mean, it makes sense. Right? Like, if she's gonna be using this show to promote a bunch of products, it's like Netflix wants the Bravo Bethany Claus. So why as ever is a salutation people often use in letters like with love. Why isn't it as ever Megan? Because she already had used with love, Megan. That's why I think as ever is very recent. Right. Well, wasn't it wasn't as ever just because of the trademark issue with American Red Bear or older? She made a point in the video to say, I secured this in 2022. Right. Then why why go all in? Arrow, American the hardest r name of all time. Yeah. The trademark got declined in August. Yeah. So I assume the pivot was sometime around then. Right. Right. But and the show wasn't announced, so it could have been as ever, Meghan. I don't really know. I just think it's a little confusing. I just want thing with her. There's so many announcements of names, and there's just so few products or episodes or whatever that, like, I'm ready to lock in on some names and to just be, like, present for, like, the name. And not for the execution. I'm ready for the execution. I feel like we've been in the mood boarding name Mood boarding for five years. Literally name, you know, ideation stage for years. Chandler and I love to bemoan the fact that, like, Nepo babies and people, like, in Meghan Markle's position, they think, like, going to work means, like, sitting down with, like, basically a team that's been paid a lot of money to make, like, really expensive PowerPoints for you when you're, like, dreaming your vision. I feel like she's just been at that stage. Like, that's what they consider work. It's, like, going to meetings where, like, they're the star and, like, they're being presented a bunch of, like, ideas by, like, really underpaid creatives. Still what we kind of heard, though, and then what was the I can't remember the publication. That article we just read about this about the two of them. Vanity Fair or all. Vanity Fair article where it was like, they basically don't necessarily come to the table with the best of ideas, and it's kinda hard to get them to, like, move into the execution stage and to commit to it. Yeah. I did read that. They wanna walk it back because they get all afraid when it actually comes to doing it. Exactly. I think I was kind of more of an apologist until the whole podcasting thing because I think as a person who understands this job and industry, I was like a team of 28 people, 20 some million dollars, 12 episodes that took three I'm sorry. It's just like it's not that hard. It has its own challenges, but, like, you don't need that to put that out. No. And to not even, like, I don't know. The whole thing frustrated me to no end, and I think that and I think Bill Simmons at Spotify was also, like, called them grifters. Mhmm. That was kind of like a moment of pause for me of, like, okay, I think that it's kind of I I don't like the inserting yourself into, like, popular industries and thinking you can do the best job at it, but you're not bringing anything to the table and trying to meaningfully contribute. Right. Right. I know. I will say when it comes to the Vanity Fair article, I felt like it was a real corroboration for the rumors that or, like, when the palace said we're investigating her bullying, that to me, I thought was like a smear campaign. I was like, this is fictitious. Like, this is fiction. This is them thinking she just has this very abrupt work ethic and whatever. She's, like, getting in trouble because she wants to hit the ground running and is a little aggressive. I honestly can relate. But I feel like when Vanity Fair put out their article, and they had quotes from people at Spotify, I mean, I actually have it on this outline. So one of the quotes from the article is it said, the source who worked in media projects says Meghan's own relationships with employees tended to follow a familiar pattern. She'd be warm and effusive at the beginning and gendering an atmosphere of professional camaraderie. When something went poorly, often due to Meghan and Harry's own demands, such as a teaser for Archetypes being released five months before the show premiered and before there was any tape to promote, Meghan would become cold and withholding toward the person she perceived to be responsible. The source says it was, quote, really, really, really awful, very painful because she's constantly playing checkers. I'm not even going to say chess, but she's just very aware of where everybody is on her board. And when you're not in, you're to be thrown to the wolves at any moment. In practice, they say that manifested as, quote, undermining. It's talking behind your back. It's gnawing at your sense of self. Really, really, like, mean girls teenager. And so there's a part of me that, yeah, it it I don't wanna believe this is true about her, but it's it's like when there's enough smoke, there is a fire. Mhmm. I just have to say, I work still at a professional in a professional corporate job. I cannot imagine having a boss like that. Or anyone who I work with, I mean, I guess she's a celebrity too, so maybe she gets, like, a pass for some things. You know, people, whatever, will put up with it. But, like, cannot imagine, like, that type of undermining mean girl behavior from someone who I'm working for. Like, I yeah. Especially who's, like, a celebrity and holds all the power. Exactly. No. And who you want to like you. Mhmm. Also, the guy who dropped that they were doing this bullying investigation, who gave the quote, He has just released a new quote saying that he and he actually helped them plan their wedding, and he called it a magical experience, that portion. The guy who's, like, was it the palace investigator on his behalf? It says former royal aide who accused Meghan Markle of bullying, quote, has no regrets. And he has given a quote that he he did this interview with, I think, at sixteen Minutes Australia, but he was like, I have no regrets for how I handled that. Like, there was investigations, essentially. I'm I'm laughing a little bit because I'm thinking about, like, I don't know, m 16, like, investigating the bullying, like, Megan Markle. I mean, I think we're all pretty clear on that the Palace bullied her pretty intensely. For sure. And, you know, full neglect of her mental health and well-being beyond that, the media campaigns against her as part of the Royal Road. Like, I think there's a lot of mutual weirdness. But, yeah, I think we also have to listen to the staff turnover. They've had so many different heads of Archwell, publicists. Like, they have a lot of staff turnover in when they were in the royals and in their, like, privatized stuff, which, like, in theory, who wouldn't wanna work with them, right Mhmm. Unless it's not a great environment. I think that is, like, the biggest litmus test for any celebrity. It's, like, are are their friends, Are their staff? Like, people who have been there for eons. Forever. Yeah. That's for everything. Like, anyone if you can main retain people that work for you, that just goes to show. Like, people enjoy working for you. They want to work with you. That says a lot. And especially because a lot of times, like, it's how you treat your employees and people who you have power over on, you know, whatever. That shows a lot about your character. And the fact that everyone flees? Like, someone had to go on, like, a mental health break Yes. After working on the podcast, I guess. Oh, really? Like, the the podcast had never even was. Like, not even archetypes, I mean. Well, this is also confusing too because that's part of my gut check with Blake and Justin is the entire cast unfollowing and not speaking to them. I'm like I keep going back to that being like, does she have enough power and pull where she could meaningfully get everyone to flip on their instincts and just completely reject a person that is sincere, kind, and genuine? Maybe she does have that power, but I do think it is hard when you're looking at that as evidence because it does seem like Occam's razor. Like, the simplest exclamation is typically true. And I think with Meghan and Harry, like, enough people don't wanna work with them that something about their working style is not ideal. Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. Okay. Let's move on from Meghan to another brunette, captivating woman. For me, in my heart. At first, I was not a fan, but I am now probably her biggest fan. The Pookinator, one and only Campbell Puckett. Okay? I am I love the Pookie, but I'm I always need people's sauce on Pookie. Pookie's staying power is remarkable. It is. I think that to their credit, it's so I mean, I thought they were going to be a viral moment. The original video, the quintessential Pookie, da da da da. I'm on board with Pookie. I think she seems very sincere. I think she seems sweet. I'm not fully there with Jett. Yes. And I think that any time there is a level of performance with a couple's affection for one another, I'm uncomfortable. It's kind of a red flag y to me in the way that a a too long of an anniversary caption is. Yeah. You know? And so I'm not I have feelings about it yet. But Pookie herself, I think, seems absolutely lovely, and I want great things for her. And she seems to love being a mom, and I'm really happy for her. And I think that, like, whatever she's doing is working because she could have just been a blip in the radar. For sure. Well, I think what's interesting is I think Jett is low key the star of that account. Like, she's obviously stunning, has Yeah. Really cute outfits, I think does a great job in her role, but he's what's really people are are there for because he's doing all the over the top performance. And if you notice in their ads, he's always in the ads. You can tell the advertisers are like and they have said this. Like, when he started being in her content and on video, that's just when and that's, like, what it became. Yeah. So even though it's, like, branded as her, it's really kinda him, interestingly. For me with Pookie, I think Pookie seems genuinely happy. Yes. And she seems just, like, sweet and happy, and I don't think there's any, like, blink twice, you know, if you're miserable Pookie Right. Thing. I think where I get icked out is with Jet's performance and with his over the top thing, which I get is maybe now comedy and people love that. But I am just imagining in my own relationship if Ben literally the the camera goes out and he's like and that's the only time where he's maybe telling me that I look absolutely fire. I mean, maybe he's telling it to her in other times, but I think I would start to just, like, like, wait. Do you actually mean this, or are you just trying to capture some content? It's real. And that's where I'm I'm it could be coming from a real place, but I think that's when I would just, like, I don't know. It just loses some of its luster, frankly. He walked up to her at the bar when they met. I know, like, everything's on them. And he said, like, you're the most beautiful girl in the world. He said, she looked just like a princess, and that's what he was. I like I'll tell you because my husband was, like, the hottest thing to him was a princess. Woof. I I I think there's some people that like that type of by the book romance and some people that find it insincere. And I think, yeah, to me, it's a bit off putting, but I think it works because unrealistic extremes work on the Internet. And people being like, get yourself a guy that treats you like Jet does, and, you know, the way he showers her with, like, flowers and teddy bears and bagel sandwiches is kind of like, oh my gosh. It's it's ripe for people tagging them, being like dreams, goals, whatever. But I also think that, like, with influencers, you can't break the fourth wall in your mind or else it all becomes insane. Because whenever I walk, I get served a lot of day in the life videos of moms, and people, like, live for them. But I'm sitting here thinking, so you woke up normal, you set up your tripod, got back in bed, took off the covers, and was like, I'm like, just even that alone to me is is odd behavior. No. I as someone who has tried to film some day in the life content, you know, to feed the machine and not really been able to successfully capture anything, like, I I would like to know how they do it because it just it does also boggle my mind for that exact same reason. I'm like, the waking up shot is really crazy to me. The my favorite is, like, either a couple, like, so in love together and they're, like, having a romantic moment, and it's, like, I can't believe I've met the man of my dreams or whatever. So they've, like, set up the tripod for that romantic moment. Or, like, the couple, and she's, like, crying in his arms and this And they're filming it. And he yeah. And they're filming it. It's like he holds space for me or whatever, and it's just, like, oh my gosh. He yeah. You have to imagine behind the scenes. I mean, when he comes in and he brings her bagel sandwiches, like, he has to say outside the door, I'm about to come in. Mhmm. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I've seen that. She always has a perfect blowout lip gloss done. Oh, completely. Like, Pookie's lip gloss to me is the smoking gun. Like like, as we've been talking, I'm like, god. Lip gloss goes away so what's the point of it? What a racket. Hers is always perfection, even post labor. I think she seems sweet. I think she does seem happy. And, yeah, I have I have such a soft spot for Pookie. I don't know. I'm suspicious of Jett, but I feel like gonna do? Also this conversation has been harmful for me because No. I feel like it's unlocked something for me, which is a lot of his love for her is based on her physicality. And they don't Not her mind. Not her mind. Like, it oh, he always talks about how he loves that she looks like a princess, and maybe there's something that's not good about that. I think, like, if Ben told me that I looked like a princess repeatedly, I would be He says that, like, in every video. Like Yeah. Basically. It's weird. My house. Once again, if that is your man's, like, fantasy, that is gross to me. That is, like, that is a turn off. Yeah. He he's he's cartoonish in his double Yes. He's like, there is, like, a Gaston to him to get. Yeah. And some people might like that, and I think the Internet gets a kick out of that, and that's part of the success. But I do think that in reality, yeah, implementation of that type of romance is incredibly unnatural. Totally. Ugh. Well, this has been a this this recording Wait. Last I have to say one more time. You guys to talk keep talking. No. The shopping for Pookie as well is very odious to me, where it's like, I can't do a good job. But, you know, he's in Palm Beach, and he's gonna get something really cheap. Bah bah. Yeah. Anyway But, you know, it is sweet. He does seem like a very doting father, and so I'll give him that. I think that's sweet. Listen. There are worse things you can beat than doting, you know, sandwich wielding, calling you a princess. Like, it's not that. It's just I think, like, it's a different it's a type of affection that you don't see very often these days. Right. And it's entertaining. It's but, yeah, I think we kind of are looking under the hood. Yes. And I support you in not doing so. I know. There's something about their content. It's it's, like, it's same as Ballerina Farm. Like, I I actually don't know. Now it's, it's dawning on me that maybe in the moment, it would feel disingenuous, and I would not feel loved for who I truly am, but more of, like, my presentation. But it's like Ballerina Farm. Like, even though in my head, intellectually, I know this is rigorous work, and it's probably done wouldn't feel great to do. There's, like, a delusion where I'm, like, actually, it's just the land. It's the wind. It's the sunlight. It's the lake. It's it's the soil. It's mother earth. It's where we came from. And it's very peaceful, but a lot of people are like, this looks like my nightmare. Anyway, I have a lot of delusions. This has been such a fun episode. Kate, where can people find you? They need to listen to your podcast. We have an episode that's live today where we're gonna be chatting about so many similar topics, so we should probably let everyone know that they can go listen. Yes. To be continued. My podcast is Be There in Five, on Instagram at Kate Kennedy, and, my book is One and a Millennial, and it just came out in paperback. And thank you guys for having me. You guys are so much fun. I feel like I listen to your podcast, so being here in person, what a dream. Oh, thank you. Hey, moms. Have you ever felt like there's more to motherhood than what we're told? Then you need to check out our podcast, Moms Ask Why. Hosted by Chelsea Jewels and Britney Whitney, Moms Ask Why dives deep into the tough questions surrounding motherhood. Our mission, to educate, inspire, and empower moms like you to take charge of your children's health. With real talk, expert insight, and actionable advice, this is a podcast every mom needs in her playlist. Because sometimes, the best way to be a great mom is to ask why. Follow, rate, and review moms ask why now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. At Pluto TV, we're celebrating Black History Month with our curated collection of black content all streaming for free. Find groundbreaking films, including Selma, Django Unchained, Ali, and Coach Carter. We have an incredible gift up here. Gripping series like Power and The Game, Next Level Comedies, music video channels, and more. Brilliant black entertainment intentionally curated and all free this month and always on Pluto TV. Stream now. Pay never.