Transcript
Welcome to The Inevitable, a podcast by Motor Trend. Hi there and happy New Year and welcome to the Inevitable. This is the Motor Trend podcast. It's our podcast about the future of transportation, the future of the automobile, the future of General Motors products, which seems to be mostly electric. But before we get to our guest, this guy right here, Ed Lowe, he has a special message just for you. The Inevitable podcast is brought to you by the all-electric Nissan Aria, inspired by the future, designed for the now. And right now, we have a question. It is the new year, but let's talk about something not that old. Uh, yesterday, Jaguar dropped their 00 concept at Art Basel in Miami. And prior to that, they kind of lit the social medias on fire with deleting every image on their Instagram account, putting one kind of wacky, uh, commercial type thing. One of our staffers said it looked like Zoolander without the comedy. Uh, and accurate accurate. And then they dropped some teaser, uh, shots, angles of the car, and then finally they dropped it yesterday. Johnny, what did you think of the 00 concept by Jaguar? Yeah, the coop. Do you want the advertising campaign and then the car I have a different take. I mean, look, if we're working off the notion that, uh, no press is bad press. Like, no one has thought about Jaguar this much since 1961 when they introduced the E-Type. Like the, the world that it was all negative, but the world's focus and consciousness was on Jaguar, and I think they actually kind of did a poor job of uh setting up the car. They should have said like, The crazy ad that everyone had really visceral negative reactions to and then tease the car a little bit because I think people miss the fact that that I don't think people are relating the uh Zoolander on uh on on Spike's car radio we said it looked like a bunch of Tilda Swintons or um I don't think they're relating that to the actual. car. Now, the actual car, um, wow, like, I like that. It's got this like super gangster Dick Tracy, yet they showed in, you know, Baby Blue and pink, very Miami, very 80s, uh, color, colorways, travertine in the interior copper that changes when you touch it, it makes a smell like it's gonna, it's gonna age. I don't know. Aging copper though, super cool, uh, love the interiors and why not like everything else Jaguar, they really tried to copy, uh, Mercedes, let's say, OK, they had, um, you know, the, the F-Type was like the MGGT. They had uh the XJ was like the S class, the XF was like the Elass X X XE. Uh, Class on and on and on. Nobody bought them, didn't work. So, um, I think go radical and you know, you never know, you never know what's gonna attract a buyer. I remember, remember when the original RAV4 came out, the little Two door, the little tiny thing. They had a commercial where it it was just a very weird car commercial where suddenly it was like kind of running around like a city like an Edward Scissorhands type, like a weird suburbia thing. And there's a little scene where it goes in and it's gonna park and a little like Chihuahua barks at it. And then the car backs out and parks somewhere else. I worked with a guy and he bought one. I'm like, Oh, why'd you buy that? I was always curious. He goes, that commercial with the dog barking at the car had to get it. I was like, what? It wasn't my friend as a coworker. It could have been you. And, um, you know, it was like, I was like, and it's it at first I was like, you're insane. But then I was like, You know what, you never know what works. Like, you, you, the idea is to sell cars. They were not selling cars. This maybe they'll sell. So I think it's great. I think it's great. Well, I'll, I'll be much more brief and just say, I agree, disagree. I do think that's a great, great position there. I do think it was a home run, absolute knock it out of the park from a marketing perspective, to your point. They got the world talking, everybody had an opinion. So yes, I don't believe that there's any such, there's no such thing as bad press. So you got everybody talking about the thing and then, then people saw it. I actually think the car, while it has some nice lines to it, it's got a great proportion. I don't know. I don't think it's, I don't think it's gonna be the sales success. It's they're not selling that, by the way, they're gonna come out with a four-door coupe kind of version of it. But to be honest, is that gonna be the thing? It's my take from Motor Trend, because I was, I've been asked about this a lot, is fundamentally we're a product review site. We and our products we review our cars. We don't review marketing campaigns. We generally don't review concept cars like in the full because there's, there's nothing under. he can't drive it. So we will observe judgment until we drive whatever the production vehicle of the Type 00 becomes. Done. OK, fair. Next, uh, next up is our guest, who happens to be a Jaguar owner, and we do ask him the question we just asked Johnny, we just answered about the Type 00 amongst many other things. We have Brian Smith, who is the design director for GM's Advanced Design California. They call it. ADCA ADCA, uh, they built a sweet new facility in Pasadena. This is a 30 year veteran of General Motors. He has a non-traditional background, uh, in car design, which we'll get into. He just went to a different school, which somehow makes it non-traditional, very non-traditional who we found on the I know I know it's funny we're gonna cover a ton of topics. We're gonna ask him some hard questions. He's a super nice guy, very smart, and his first podcast, in his first podcast, so we were not that gentle with him. Uh, and actually he he can love analog cars and digital cars. Imagine that. So without further ado, Brian Smith, Brian Smith, thanks for coming on. Thanks for, uh, driving across town, right? Because you're out in, uh, the new design studio, GM Advanced Design in South Pasadena Pasadena, Pasadena, Pasadena, Pasadena. Yeah, I toured it. It's, it's very cool. Yeah I I can say anything about anything I saw in there, but it was very s. You could say there was stuff in there. There was. I saw something that was designed during the pandemic I can't talk about, but it was cool. Um, it's like an off-road bus. Cool, uh, OK, so you, you're leading GM Advanced Design California and you're also, uh, you got a lot of GM on your resume, obviously because you've been there almost your entire career except for like 18 months you spent at Saab. Yeah, well, and technically it was an assignment for GM. Yeah yeah yeah it was owned then by GM. So yeah, I've almost 30 years at GM now, and you have the distinction. I was gonna get this later, but you are like one of the only. Designers we've had on here, not from Art Center. Oh, where did you go to school? Yeah, I went to the University of Cincinnati, really? I mean, we've had, I don't know, a couple dozen designers, it feels like, and I think with the exception of Ralph Ralph, Ralph, yeah, and, and, and, uh, Henrik Fisker, who went to Art Center in Switzerland before they shut that down. Yeah, everyone else's art. So do you have like a huge chip on your shoulder when you because like you're like the you you have to be like the only guy. Right, that you do, or I don't know, maybe is, is, uh, there are others, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, we, we, uh, there was a period where Cincinnati was recruited pretty heavily, um, back in the day, but, um, and why Cincinnati? I, I, I just never knew they had a car design anything. They didn't at the time, uh, they have a kind of a transportation program now, but, uh, back then it was industrial design. Uh, my mom worked for the university, so it was free and, uh, good reason hard to pass that up. That's the best reason I had professors tell me you're going to the wrong school, you should go to art center, you should go to CCS, and there was one moment where I almost like walked out of there and went and um. I, I came across some folks that had made it into the industry, uh, from Uh, Cincinnati, so I, so I thought I'm gonna give it a shot. And it, and it was, it's a co op school, so lots of opportunities for internships. So I was able to do an internship at Chrysler or GM. I did the entire big three while I was still in school. GM was my last one. So, so I have a couple of friends that went to like Yale or Harvard, and what I notice is they spent a lot of time sitting around talking about going to Yale or going to Harvard. Is that how the art center people are? There are a lot of like yeah they're they're a tight alumni network yeah but I get that a lot of that. There's no there's no gloating. So, um, being doing industrial design in Cincinnati, uh, do you think that helped you? Like, because it like makes you work harder, you had to like carve out the the automobile or, or actually, did you go to Cincinnati thinking you wanted to be a car designer or you're like, man, I want to design packages or like, like I knew I wanted to be a car designer. I knew it was going to be a tough road, so yeah, I probably worked a little harder, um. Um, I, you know, all, all of my product design projects, I was told looked like they were automotive. I was like, OK, cool. So were you, you said you knew you wanted to be a car designer, so you were aware in high school or earlier that people actually designed cars for a living? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you aware of that from reading motor Trend, or the real answer? Motor trend among others. I mean, I, I basically read cover to cover every automotive magazine as a kid from probably age 7 on and By the time I was 9, I knew I wanted to be a car designer. And did, did you have, um, artistic talent? I did, yeah, like, uh, I had the kind of gasoline in my veins from my dad. He was a car guy, raced NASCAR in the 50s, like, like when it was still dirt track, you know, bring what you bring what you got and uh. Um, my mom's side, my, my grandfather was an artist, and so I kind of got some of that artistic talent. So everything I drew was cars. I mean, it was, I've, I've know I've told this story before because I decided I wanted to be a car designer when I was probably about the same age and no one in my family knew anything about arts. My dad gave me like a bar of like ivory soap and like carved a car out of it and it was horrible, and he worked next to GM, I think the design center used to be in Westlake back in the 80s. Or or some headquarters or some GM headquarters, and he told me he was gonna like show it to them and I never heard a word. I don't think he ever showed it to them either, but I had no artistic talent, so let's, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. My, my, my dad had a story, uh, he wanted to be a car designer, uh, and, uh, you know, he'd been in the racing. I was like, well, it's funny, the only other thing I would want to be that a car designer is a racing driver. So, uh, we kind of lived vicariously through each other, but he had snuck into the Highland Park. Design studio in Chrysler in the 50s, like I guess Virgil Exner was probably running at the time, and he walked around every studio, just dressed up in a suit and followed somebody through the door. And uh he's got a great story about it, but. Did he, did he get caught? He did. Well, he found the biggest office he could find and he went in and he said, hey, I want to be a car designer, and the guy was like, what? How did you get in here? And and he gave him a piece of paper and he said, draw me one, and he said they weren't very impressed and arrested. So who, so when you were, say, 789, or when you decided you wanted to be a carer. Whose design was the, the influencing like the most, the, the person where you're like, with the car, you're like, that's it right there. I wouldn't do that. Yeah, I, I remember uh taking my Ferrari poster off the wall when the C4 Corvette came out. And, uh, it was just so shockingly simple and and and beautiful and such a an upgrade from the C3 that was out there for so long. And I remember the the GM concepts at the time, um, you know, there was a whole string of them from ACC, um, the Indy Corvette, you know, the, which we have in the studio right now, uh, just for inspiration and, um, Gosh, what are some of the, the Buick, the Buick Wildcat, I remember, I think that was a Kipposeco design, but the, the exposed powertrain in the back, uh, extreme mid-engine proportions, that was like, wow. And what was the Oldsmobile like the 20 miles an hour over the Aerotech, that was the one for me. Yeah, that that was that was what, sorry, what Ferrari did you take down was 30, OK. So then fast forward, it must be like you. When did you pinch yourself the hardest, uh, at GM design to is it when you see some of these concepts you're like, I read about that in the magazine when I was or when he designed like the C6 or something. Well, I mean, there's been a lot of great, uh, project opportunities for me and, and, um, I think they've really kept it interesting over the years with, you know, international assignments and things, so. I mean there's been many, it's hard to point at one. I mean, I, I just, I love my job. It's 3 things where you say, man, I'm really glad I got to help design these. Uh, Cadillac 16. 0 yeah, we'd stop there. That was my first project as a manager, um, very tough project, but super rewarding, you know, just what an incredible design like that that was well that Wellburn too, or is that? Uh, Wayne Cherry was in charge at the time, but Ed was kind of, uh, directing things up to a point in the project. Yeah. How, how close did that come to production? I've heard, I've heard different stories. Uh, we worked, uh, we worked for a while on some proposals to get it in production. We didn't have the right hardware, like the right pieces. There was one proposal to use some of the hydroforming from Corvette and some of the Corvette components, but it was gonna shrink the car quite a bit and I was like, well. And that doesn't, it's not the same thing. The 2500 chassis wouldn't work like you could. Well, the concept did have a version of the rear steer out of the pickups at the time, but I mean you saw, I'm sure you saw, uh, I know I want to touch you with this, but the Jaguar 00 concept that showed up yesterday. Well, hang on, but like, boy, that looks a little bit of a Cadillac 16 in that proportionally and stylistically, you know, I mean definitely long hood, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. I remember the car growing, you know, it was like that a lot of people don't know this, but the 16 started out as a 12, it was gonna be a V12 because there was actually one in development at the time based on two of the uh high feature V6s. And um uh Lutz came in, and we, we pitched kind of some of the concept projects to him, and he's like 12, make it a V16. My, he's like nobody else could do that but Cadillac, you gotta do a 16, so the nose got longer, 13.6 L, uh, you know, 2 427s kind of it was, it was awesome awesome project, but uh. I can answer another one of his, of his, of his three because he put it, he put it on his LinkedIn, the 2014, uh, Motor Trend car of the year. Can like CTS, yeah, OK, he put that, put that on. I was like, yes, this guy is that one of the top three. It's top 5, top 5, top 3 in the next, uh, Gen 5 Camaro, uh, was a good project, um. That's the one that got famous from Transformers Bumblebee, um, and but yeah, very cool. So where were you relative because we had Sania on this podcast. Where where were you relative to him on that project? Well, he was. But he he he was 52, yeah, he was, uh, working for me and, um, I guess at one point, you know, uh, it was, it was between the two of us to go to Australia to execute the car, and, um, he went and I stayed here. So, so he kind of finished the car in Australia, but we did a lot of the, uh, what was the assignment was assignment to go to Australia or would have been pretty interesting, you know, I don't I don't mind Melbourne's a pretty nice place, but um and that's because. It was it was it was a Holden mechanically came out. It didn't come out of the Holden factory, but it was finished in Australia and then the tooling was in, yeah, because, because the Holden studio had all the background on the, uh, the VE chassis. It was, uh, that was the underpinnings. They, they did the final design work and then, yeah, it was built here. You guys get along, you and, you know, I haven't talked to him in years. Yeah, he's doing great. Looks like it. Yeah. Well, just on this Corvette, this Camaro, because I asked this before, I can't remember who I asked who on earth was responsible for the way that the steering wheel like made your wrists turning it was like it was like it was so cool to see that. The final version of that looks so close to the concept car except for like, I remember like like what the heck is up with this with the steering wheel like this or yeah I mean it was weird you know what I'm the section of the wheel I don't, it's like the two big wings that came out were like super thick. There's no way to grab it like a wheel you had to like it was weird how the how the rim of the wheel also kind of canted inwards and I was like this is horrible. I don't know, no comment. I wasn't involved in the interior. I also noted that in your resume. You're like, I do a little bit of interiors, but you're most 6 here. OK. All right, 3rd, 3rd vehicle. Uh, You know, it's, I mean, all the recent Cadillac EV's, uh, I, I spent time on, I mean, I'm driving a Lyric right now and uh it was the first one. so yeah, I, I think, you know, Cadillac lyric, you know, um, Close second to that, um, is the, uh, Escalade IQ. That was a great very good looking truck loved working on that, um, coming soon, yes, yeah, sweet. This is perfect. This is exactly what we're talking about. Looking for the best off-road trails, OnX off-road has you covered with over 750,000 miles of trails and comprehensive offline maps, you can explore without worrying about cell service, easily find trails for 4x4s, ATVs, dirt bikes, and more. OurA provides detailed trail. Info including difficulty ratings and open slash close dates. OnX off-road also helps you navigate public and private land boundaries, ensuring you stay legal. Try On off-road free for 7 days and discover why it's the go to app for off-roaders. Download now. Let's talk about some of these EVs because that's the nature of this podcast. I want to talk about the naming convention you guys came up with, but the first question, because I asked the Motor Trend staff like, hey, we got Brian Smith in here, let's, what do you want to pelt him with? And the first question, the first question is um. Where are the Cadillac coupes? You guys have done all sorts of gorgeous concept coups, and it's like, it's getting old that we, we don't actually, and I know it's unfair to peg you with this because it's, it's, I don't think it's your decision whether you just design them, but it's true. Like there's been some beautiful, uh, CL Mirage, uh, Soleil Opulent Velocity, the latest one you guys just dropped, right? Like. Like, I mean, I still remember I was there when the uh the CL rolled out at uh I was at uh Pebble Beach, yeah, Clint Eastwood's place in uh in Carmel Valley and like we were outside, but there was the air was sucked out of the room. No one had ever seen anything like it and I remember just like I wrote something like they're committing suicide if they don't put it in production, you know, typical, uh, bright hyperbole, yeah, hyperbole, that's the word, but you know, but like that was gorgeous like do that. Yeah. I mean, there's a passion and design for coupes and convertibles and, you know, performance vehicles, but the heart of the market is, you know, four-door sedans and and SUVs, um. I mean, we obviously we're all car guys, you know, uh, on our side in design, so I mean we advocate for those. You probably even saw the recent, um, Instagram post of the coupe that was done in Australia, the, the Cadillac coupe, uh, no, I'll check it out that's that's uh that was posted on uh GM Design Instagram, um, done years ago and never shown. Um, it was, it was right at the cusp of when we, um, Made the, the decision to really head towards EVs and it was an ice-based, you know, uh, Camaro-based underpinnings and, uh, modified to, to make it a Cadillac, but, uh, yeah, I mean, coup coups are coups are where the passion is, but the market is generally elsewhere. So, if I'll just translate, it's your fault out there. You guys, you guys keep buying these SUVs and these crossovers. If you bought more coups, they design more. However, that's a nice excuse for like Chevy. Or Buick, but for Cadillacs, surely you could make Cadillacs gotta make money too, otherwise they become they become a halo vehicle, you know, surely there's room for the standard of the world to have a big, beautiful Cadillac 16, you know, um, the Mirage. I mean, I remember the Mirage concept a year later, like unbelievable, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we love them. I, we've got, uh, El Mirage in the studio, uh, right now, so yeah. Well, I guess we got to take it up with uh. Probably what Mark Royce give Mark a call. Hey, hey, he's a guy who he'll have a good answer for you. OK, uh, so let's go to, um, can we just talk about this? Whose fault is the naming convention? So, uh, why I, I can just go off, why is it not Clatique? Why is it elastic, right? And then it's vistic lyric optic, and then escalate IQ. Is that a the escala. No, we say, OK, so. Is that a mark where does feel free to bring the marketing people too, because who knows, like that person, is it a marketing call or design do the brand thing and the naming is like so, so we, uh, we submit ideas for names. Um, I would say, you know, we were included in the process, but yes, marketing generally names vehicles, I mean, and, and, uh. You know, there was a there was a concerted effort to walk away from the alphanumeric stuff, you know, really as a break towards like these are EVs, these are different. And um that's where a lot of that came from, but I think really trying to telegraph, um a connection between all the EVs without sticking an E on the end or a, you know, you know, IQ was the The suffix, I guess. So yeah, and then it's always me or me, really? Wow, that's a first. OK, we'll edit that. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I was gonna say Escalades escalade back when everything was, you know, CT4 or whatever escalators escalade. So, yeah, don't, don't mess with the moneymaker. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, that, that, and that name has stuck for a long time and, and, uh, it's, it's, uh. Um, kind of a cornerstone of the brand, so you don't mess with it for sure. But there's so many cool names within the Cadillac, the history of Cadillac that, you know, yeah, not Katerra, but, but he's trying to say Coupe deville, yeah, El Dorado, but you and I feel like in this moment, right, uh, everybody, their mama, to your point is adding an E or an I or a weirdo or and painting the thing and lighting it up in like a blue or a green. Um, you could hard pivot and be totally within the Cadillac sort of history and legacy into some sweet, like cursive, you know, some lettering on the side, but of like a, of like a monolith futuristic kind of vehicle like that. I feel like, and we're going to talk about what Jaguar's doing, but, you know, is this something, I don't know, you know what I'm saying, like there's, I think there's a, there's a mood for EVs to. To have a story, and a lot of these upstarts don't have a story and Cadillac has some of the greatest stories, right? Yeah, I think, you know, there there are a lot of great names in the Cadillac repertoire. Um, there was a period where maybe the brand got soured and some of the names kind of, uh, carry baggage, and I think that's kind of why maybe, you know, steering away from some of those, there's people still remember some of the Some of the ones that we don't like to talk about as much like, you know, in the 80s, yeah, but yeah, I, I get it. But he's, yeah, yeah, he's not saying do the simarron, he's saying do the most people I get you very fondly like El Dorados. You want a name City of gold. Even the vehicles of that era now are, it's like the Sopranos. Like looking back, it's like looking at the gangster movies, um, what's the one, casino, and that era of where it's like you go inside and and Sharon Stones in a in a mink on a on a blood red tufted leather, you know, interior Cadillac and you're just like, yeah, like, where's the modern version of that? Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I'm just incepting ideas, but also maybe to Brian's point, if I put words in your mouth, like, is there a market for that? Would be my, my, my only question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's hard to say like I I I think one of the things Cadillac um is has been in the past when they were at the height, you know, say 50s and 60s, they, they, they weren't looking back at all. I mean it was absolutely looking as far forward as we could, yeah, yeah, how do we, how do we put the most advanced technology in a vehicle, make it plush and comfortable, and, and aim aim for the stars, and that's what we've done now with the EVs, I think. I think, you know, there there's a danger of falling into looking in the past too much and and kind of resurrecting or or or coming across as retro, um, so I think, you know, reinventing the brand with EVs and and really pushing towards the future was was kind of the goal. So I think it's kind of a clean break and and and really being able to identify. The EVs from the ice, and then maybe when there's no more ice and we're all EVs, there's another opportunity to, you know, maybe resurrect some of those names. I don't know. And then, so can you talk, uh, how did uh Celestic come to be? So if, if you're listening, you don't know Celestic is also coming very soon. $350,000 base price of flagship beyond flagship, like totally like, oh, you want us to, you know, match the interior leather to your eye color? Like, come on, come on to Detroit, we'll do it, right? I mean, right, fully bespoke or custom or whatever the word is. Like how, how did that happen? And like, like. Uh, it took, it took a big push. I mean, I, everybody has won it. In fact, that's the 4th if you count, uh, the 16, that's the 4th kind of Cadillac flagship I've worked on. Um, there were 2 in between that, uh, started and stopped, but, um. The uh the Celestic was uh really an effort to be, OK, we're going EV. Let's do the ultimate, like this is the ultimate of all ultimate Cadillacs and kind of get back to, uh, some of the really bespoke Cadillacs that were done, you know, with Pinin Farina back in the day or the, the, uh, the El Dorado Broome, um, or even like the the 20s and 30s, right? I mean like the real coach, yeah, yeah, yeah, hand-built, uh, hand, um. You know, design your materials, pick your colors, you know, uh, paint to whatever color you want, and, uh, It, it took an effort to get, uh, that far into it. I mean, I, I think at the time, Cadillac was kind of aiming here and design, you know, we were pushing even higher and, uh, we got the support. I mean, you, you, you start, I think design has the responsibility to show the company where to go and, um, that was a perfect example I think of like, look, we, we have to aim beyond all that because we're trying to change perception here. And, uh, so how does that, so are you saying Cause when you first started describing it, I said, oh, so somebody noticed that there's an opportunity here in this industry move to EVs for maybe Cadillac to own. This, this higher stratosphere that they haven't had in a long time, but you're saying design actually pushed and said we should be up playing in here. Is it, is that, is that more accurate? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, uh, you know, we always get into kind of pricing where where does the price want to land? Where can we, you, you start talking with marketing and it's like, well, you know, what can we price for as as our brand and it's like, well, it can't be. It can't be retroactive. We have to like go beyond and the people will come. It just, that's, that's prevalent with with throughout the industry. Like I just a funny story. I had a friend who did PR at Land Rover, and I went to go see um some Monterey special edition Range Rover. It's like the, you know, I think it was like 1 of 17 or something, and I, I saw him afterwards and he said, Oh, did it cost $347,000? And I go, yes, exactly. He goes, yeah, we did a study, that's the most people will pay for a Range Rover. So I was like, oh, very specific, but it was that was the number they went with. So, um, so, so what was your involvement with Celeste, the the, the original concept all the way through, or, uh, I was, I was on the project up until, uh, kind of, um. Theme is fully established and the car is almost done and it needed to be like final execution. Um, and then, um, there, there needed to be so much attention on, um, color trim and materials and how the, you know, how the final execution was that I was overseeing so many Cadillacs at the time and we did the entire portfolio of EVs kind of simultaneously and, uh, with a small team and it was a lot of work at the time, we were still doing updates to the ice vehicles. So, um, Yeah, so the decision was made to put then Aaron Crosley in to, to really complete the deal and make sure that the, uh, the customer was at the heart of, you know, how the thing gets built and specified. And this was all done at the former West Coast Design studio, or is this done done in Detroit is that? Yeah, this was all before my move out here. Got it. OK. And then, so again if if you're listening and you're not familiar with what the Celtic is, it's, it's a 1920 ft long. Fastback, well, I don't know what you call lift back. Like, I don't know what you technically call the shape. It's, it's a curve back fastback, um, but, but big, big four door thing. How did you guys arrive at that shape for the flagship? I mean, you must have had like, we could do a two-door, we could do an SUV, we could do a sports car. Well, I mean, I, you think Cadillac, you think kind of big sedan. I mean, that's probably the first thing that pops in your mind and, um. Uh, there was, uh, uh, Magali de Bellis had done this, uh, uh, vision theme that, and, and a lot of people don't know this, but the lyric came after the Celeste, even though the Celestic is launching after the design of the Celestic was first and it set the tone and became kind of the theme of the lyric in a way, uh, on a different proportion you can see the resemblance, yeah, yeah, so, uh, we had a vision model when I started in Cadillac and I was like, OK, let's make that real and uh. That's where all the work began. And and the Celestic was the first uh electric Cadillac. It was, I would say the first vision theme designed for one, yeah, um, it, it, uh, took a little longer to get everything lined up for that one, very unconventional program to, um, to sort out and deliver. You have to find like artisans like like I remember, I remember talking with, uh. Cadillac, when you guys showed it at Pebble Beach, and I said, like, you know, Like, who's doing the pinstripe because I've been to the Rolls-Royce factory at Goodwood and like I met the guy. I forget his name. There's a guy. He does every single pinstripe. He does it by hand. Not only that, the, uh, because Kristen Lee just did this article, you and I have both done this. This is how old we are. They're, they're going back and doing these, uh, story ideas again. Bentley took her to crew and showed her the, uh, how they do the book matched, uh, wood veneers, which is, which is leads to a question. How are you guys gonna do that? Is this a, this is a skill that um Bentley, well VW Group retained in whatever 20 years ago when they, when they bought Bentley. Um, They have these arsons. They have the whole room. They have books. They have, they have employees that do nothing. They have books of wood with reference numbers to the piece of wood where they cut the veneer to the car it's in so they can tell you if like you bought it, you're like, oh, you, you didn't you dented it, we, we might have one here. They have a whole leather library, they got the whole thing, right? Does that exist at General Motors, or if it didn't, how did you, like, what right do you have to like, say, hey, we, we need to do this, and they're like, are you crazy? Do you know how expensive it's gonna be to like do all this stuff you guys want to do? Uh, there's been a lot of that, but it's like, hey, we're gonna figure it out, you know, and I think the, the, the company has never supported design, uh, you know, 30 years I've been there, the company's never supported design like they do now. I mean, we're really going for it, you know, from a aesthetic perspective and um I mean, there's just, there was a lot of commitment around that car to make it really be that level of execution. So they're finding a way. I mean, we have Uh, in some cases, our, um, our DFO shops in Detroit that actually build our concept cars are involved in some of the execution because they're making one-off custom stuff all the time. Interesting. Um, you said something really fascinating. You said that like you alluded to that all the EVs, Cadillac EVs were kind of designed at the same time. Is that to me that doesn't sound normal. Is that a normal thing to have happen or is that sort of unique in your experience? Uh, it somewhat unique, um, but it was, it was a big push at the time to get a whole, you know, basically an EV portfolio together, um, and, you know, it was, there was a very tight launch cadence to how, how they're gonna, you know, roll out and so they were, I wouldn't say totally simultaneously, but they were on top of each other and we were very busy at that time. This is like 2018? Uh, 2019 through, yeah, 22 during the pandemic, yeah, but I think it shows because, you know, I remember, you know, there's a lot of talk about this. I'm not saying anything, uh, out of school, but like, you know, back in the day, BMWs, you know, was one sausage three lengths. It was just this is the same thing. They look a three series looked like a. And then they went radically away from that in the Bengal era and there's now they're even more beyond that. Um, but I've been looking at the Cadillac EVs and what what's the new 3 row that's not the IQ but the um the Vistic and like, I'm just, I'm amazed like the lyric, the vistic, um, the, the, the, the, the escalate IQ like they all, they look related. In a way that like a lot of like Mercedes maybe still does that, um, but a lot of car brands don't to me it makes sense like, oh yeah, they kind of came out of the same same team. Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, and around the same time and really with a lot of focus on a family resemblance, but you know, we don't want to be cookie cutter, we want to have, uh, each one have its own personality, and I think we did that. Yeah, well, I, I, I definitely think he did that, yeah, yeah, like I was, I was when I saw that. I was just like, oh wow, it's even better, you know, like, yeah, that's a cool, that's a cool vehicle. I mean, I think for a lot of people, Escalade's too big and that's kind of the, the sweet spot. I think for a 3 year row SUV with, you know, luxury, you know, attributes, that thing's awesome. OK, and plenty of power, I assume. OK. I mean, I just work. I what what was the, um, oh gosh, I have to go back to your names. It was the 3 row that wasn't the Escalade, but it had a gas engine. The and I should know this XT6 again it was like nice design, but for me like the powertrain was sort of like. You know, didn't didn't have it like it'd be nice if they could put an escalate motor into it but they, they was a V6 and it was kind of a whatever V6, so. So, um, just because I'm uh there there's been some recent changes on the engineering side, who is it, um. Brandon Vivian was leading Celeste and now it's no way that he is still, is he still leading it and. You, the, the guy you had before is now over a Corvette. I'm screwing up the name. You're talking about the, the, yeah, yeah. Tony was the chief engineer and then Brandon was the executive chief engineer. OK, so but now Tony's at Corvette Corvette. Right, yeah, he plays, and Brandon has, is he still, he's not, he, he's got a bigger role now with AVDs advanced, uh, vehicle development. So, um, but I think he's still attached to Cadillac for a while. Who's getting, who's the engineer getting Celestic out the door? Uh, it's probably still Brandon. I, I don't know. Yeah, I can't, you probably fact checked me. We've, we've been trying to get Brandon on the show, so like, because he, he worked on the EV1. That was his first job at GM, was like wiring the batteries together or something like that. I did not know that. Yeah, he told me that at dinner one time. I was like, what? I gotta get you on this, but he's just stuck in Detroit. That was the first electric car I ever drove was an EV. You drove one, yeah, yeah, back in the day. What was it like 1997 or 6 or 17, I think it was even earlier, man. What, what, what was it like? Uh, it was neat, but Severe range anxiety in that. I mean 50 miles and that was like on a good day downhill with the wind behind you. That's I drove the, the Tesla Roadster and like maybe 100 miles, maybe if he didn't accelerate. If he did, it was like uh oh, and who's not gonna accelerate with the torque like that? Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so let me, let me ask you something because this, this is, um, I think this is, this is the perfect setup. The way you described in the development of all of the GM EV or the Cadillac EV lineup. In the 2019 to 2021 period, super focused. Now, the narrative goes, all the manufacturers are kind of woeing back a little bit and everyone's going erre, everyone's talking about plug-in hybrids and uh electric range extended vehicles. What does that mean for you in design? Are you like cool story, I'm still over here, it's fundamentally it's gonna be this shape and whether you put. A motor generator under the hood and the and a battery is gonna be goes from being this big to now this big. I don't care, or, or no, are you guys like, oh, we got tear them all up, start over. How does it work? Well, uh, you know, our, our ultimate vision is still 000, so, uh, as an advanced design director, you know, we're still EV like, you know, we're looking beyond this next generation of vehicles one after it. So, um, I think EV adoption. We'll get there. It's just gonna take a little more time than we thought and um sure there's gonna be, you know, some needs to do some stopgap, you know, um, Adjust to the customer taste, um, you know, to improve greenhouse gas and, and still get the customers. But, um, you know, in a way, hybrid vehicles are modified ice, you know, so, so they're not like complete tear ups of vehicles, generally speaking. So, I think, you know, as a company, we're staying pretty nimble as a design organization, we're, we're much faster than we used to be. So, you know, we're just adapting as needed. OK. Why are you faster than you used to be? Or what, what, what, what allowed you to be faster? Uh, technology, uh, is a lot of it. Uh, I think, you know, um, the tools we have now, we learned a lot during COVID, uh, working from home, you know, with, you know, for forcing ourselves to use digital tools, uh, in ways that we've never used them before. And can you give us an example? Uh, yeah, gosh, I mean, we, we did global collaboration calls over, uh, I, I guess it wasn't even Teams at the time of Skype with, uh, digital, like fully digital environments. Um, headsets on with avatars pointing, you know, in this virtual world that things, you know, we're on little laptop screens, so it's, you know, it takes some adjustment, but Um, spinning environments with multiple themed cars and people in different regions all looking at the same thing, it was like, It was like we're in the future now, uh, so it was different. It's like you're all wearing like you're all in the same room together as like little like little and just talking about something and these like silly little robot kind of avatars with with laser pointers and stuff, but uh have you noticed um a trend away from clay modeling at all? I should say like on your scale, like I know smaller companies are kind of just like. Why bother? But well, I know a lot of the West Coast design studios have gone full digital. Um, we believe wholeheartedly in 3D, um, models, full size, um, 1 to 1. I think it's the best way to visualize what you have. I mean, I think, sure, you can go directly from digital to something uh physical in a hard model sense, but you lose that opportunity. To get the, the hand sculpting and hand, you know, subtlety in the surface. It's hard to get that. I was gonna say surface is what a lot of out of a computer it's very difficult. You're a 30-year veteran of design, you get these young whipper snappers coming out of that fancy art center school right around the corner, right? Is there anything you can point to? That's like a like a fun, like a missing fundamental, you know, like the funny, the analog is um. Instagram videos are funny. Like I saw this one where they handed a bunch of college students like they showed them what a fax. What's this? A fax machine. They're like telephone t dial dial, right? That's my favorite. They showed him like a hard, they showed him a cassette, a cassette player, like a like a literally like what is that we're so old. But is there, is there? Is there any miss where you see like, oh yeah, it's because you guys, you guys only were designing on. Desktops, you never got your hands dirty. Is there anything like that no protractor. Uh, there, there's, um, yeah, I, I struggle with some of it coming out of the schools that the. The digital tools are getting so good that they become a kind of a step skipper. Um, you can, you can skip the sketch and go right to a model, and you can have somebody that's a designer, but they're kind of sculpting and it's like, where's the sketch that created that? That's one of the things that I think just, just hand drawing shouldn't really go away. You still have to be able to describe something quickly on a piece of paper in two dimensions. Um, and, you know, one of the things we used to do that I think is really important are tape drawings. Um, so, so laying tape on a two-dimensional, um, drawing on a wall to describe a three dimensional object and drawing the sections. And that's something that always taught designers how to lay tape lines on full size models then, you know, you learn how to lay a tape two dimensionally, then you learn how to lay it 3 dimensionally. And uh that that part's missing because essentially, you can take the uh digital uh underlayment of the architectural components and just sketch over it in the computer and make that whatever size you want, print it and hang it on the wall, and so you, you have all these tools to basically skip that. That kind of learning element, but the, because I've seen the tape and what's his name, your buddy from uh Lamborghini. He's, that's all he does is tape master he loves it. There's an art to it but what is it? What's so what is that for the layman like, is it, is it, is it that they can, you can get the form. Sort of expressed in a 1 to 1, like much quicker because it's literally like you're pulling a line and you can and you can kind of drop it is that yeah, well, it used to be the way you got from two dimensions to 3 was you you lay out the car full size. On a wall and you represent all three views and the section of the door, and then the modelers would come over and take templates right off of that. And block in the model and then you as a designer had laid those lines already full size on on a two dimension. Now you're laying them on a three dimensional thing and it's like muscle memory you're laying it down and it's and it's a 1 to 1 reference to the car. So, uh, but you know some of the art of, of being a car designer is in that transfer process. Yes, absolutely. I, I think, you know, there are, uh, there is a skill around. Going from 2D to 3D and knowing what you drew, right? I mean, understanding what everyone else sees in your sketch, and sometimes people see three different things, but, um, you know, if you're describing the form correctly, it's easy to translate into 3D. OK. Um, I wanna stay in this, in this vein a little bit, and we'll talk about um. Because you said something super interesting there about the, the step, the step skipping and how the digital tools make it so much easier. I do want to talk about the Jaguar rebrand just because it happened. This is, you know, you're gonna be hearing this about a month after it happened, happened yesterday. We saw the full car at the Miami, whatever that art show was, but I want to talk about another Jaguar first because it's called Art Basel. Um, I'm not that fancy art show in the US. So first, let's establish that you're not just a car designer and you've been very Uh, strong on EVs, but you have very analog tastes. Do you still have, this is a, we did an article on you a couple of years ago. Do you still have a 67 Triumph TR4A? I do actually, yeah. And the 72 Triumph TR6. I sold the TR6, OK, 76 Jaguar XJ Coupe. I unfortunately sold that. Oh, I love that and a 78 Porsche 928. I do have that still. OK. Anything else? What did you add? What you got rid of too? Would you, would you? Uh, I added a boxer as, uh, like, like everyone in the industry because I'm in California and there's, you're surrounded by those, but, um. What else, um, oh, I, uh, I bought a 1960 Alfa Mao, uh, 2000 spider, so the big spring bodied one. You're a real car person you got exquisite, yeah, yeah, but I mean, yeah, this is, well, but also this is what car dudes buy. This, by the way, is gonna help you immeasurably in the YouTube comments. OK, he's not just some, he's not just some TV lover guys. This guy might be morally superior to you, but he keeps having XJ coup, hey guys, guess what? You can have two thoughts in your head at the same time. You can like EVs. You can like old cars. It's weird. Consider it, um. There's another jag that came out, uh, recently. I don't know if you saw it happen in downtown LA is this uh super cat, uh, it was yeah yeah yeah um. I asked another car designer we had on this show for his thoughts and he or she. Pan the hell out of it. Did they see it in person this car designer, uh, I won't, yes, maybe, OK, because it was, I will say I was there. You were there too. I was there when they when Magnus and what's his face, Kaiser showed it and it does not photograph well, but it's pretty like the specific words are you can tell he's not a car designer, no understanding of proportion, but it was also pretty I was. What were your thoughts as a former XJ Coupe owner, uh. Did you see it? like, did you see it in person or it's only I haven't seen it in person. I've seen the photos. I mean, I'm, I'm kind of a purist, so, uh. I like usually the first version of a car is the purest every time. You know who says that? Ian Callum. That's one of his big mantras is that they could just get fatter and more stuff glued to them. Yeah, the, the unfortunate part is the cars always get better to drive. They get better power trains. Better, uh, engineering, better fit and finish, better quality, but the designs tend to go backwards, usually bigger motor. It's like that's so true. 40 to 20. It's so true, yeah, so I mean with Jaguar, the F type that there was a one year where they had a rear. Driver, uh, V8, that was awesome. I mean, yeah, it was impossible to control, but like, wow. And then it's gorgeous design and by the time the last X F type, it drove much better, but it just got bloated and things glued to it and all that, yeah, yeah, they, they tend to get heavier, but they still have the, they have more power, yeah. And uh my 28 is a good example. Mine's a 78 1st one, no sunroof, no uh rub strips like the the purest version of the posture interior. Yes, of course, gotta have that, yeah. So, uh, yeah, um, but Um, so I'll leave it at that. I mean that, that car reminded me of the, obviously the, the race cars that it's racing, and then, um, and, and I know that it's, it's, I know people from big giant corporations like to comment on other big giant corporations, but that Jag, uh, 00 I think it's called, pretty radical, the blue and the pink one they showed. Like just thoughts on like a big EV direction for just the the attempt to relaunch the brand. Yeah, well, I mean, I, I think that uh they obviously had to do something, um. I, I, I guess, uh, for me, I, I don't know, I guess I'm torn by like, you know, walking away from what the brand has stood for from a kind of beauty and surface standpoint, um, to be something different. I don't know. Um, that's another one that real quick, I mean, I, I, I totally understand what you're saying. Uh, a lot of people said, boy, you should see these. the pictures just aren't working. Yeah, and that that does happen with cars could be certainly the proportions are like shocking. So I mean in a good way, uh, proportionally very indulgent, yeah, yeah, huge wheels. Yeah, there's no like nothing wrong with the side view proportions of that, yeah, for sure. OK. Is it, is it, uh, easy to summarize as well it's just a Uh, architecture brutalist applied to a car or, or do you go, or you think it's a little more, more than that? Uh, I don't know, no comment from me really, but, you know, I, I'll take, I'll take the high road. I, the, you know, I'm having, having jags in the past, you know, uh, I don't, maybe I, I, I appreciate, I guess, The sentiment of really trying to reinvent the brand, which is, I mean, sort of what Cadillac has done in a way with the the EV push and a radical new design language. You just didn't, you just didn't, um, stop making cars for 18 months or whatever it was, right, right, and, and, and, and what you said, you said I love it because you said, you know, they had to do something which like they, you know, you rewind the clock just a few years they had a they had the F type. Uh, R, which is, you know, 575 horsepower, awesome coupe. They had the XJ 575, which was the same engine in a big, beautiful coupe. They had, uh, the XF, they had the XE, they had the F type, they had the sorry, the pace, the pace. They had a full car in them. Nobody bought them, you know, like, like, and they were, they were playing on that old heritage and they were, you know, beautiful and great to drive and pace and grace and space and all. And nobody cared and they died, you know, like they had to do something. Sort of everyone's getting like, you know, like, oh, Jaguar, it's like you haven't thought about Jaguar in decades. You know, you like it so much, go buy one. I talked to a lot of guys who are saying that they're like, Whoa, you know, I drove that. I drove the 9/11. 9/11 was better, so I bought that. OK, well, OK, let's, uh, let's change gears here. Um, General Motors, another more recent news. Got that 11th team in Formula One. It's gonna be Cadillacs Andretti. What you GM Advanced design. You guys doing any? You guys doing liveries? You guys doing the guys getting to do cool stuff with, uh. I wouldn't be able to tell you if I was. I was like sounds like a good project. Sounds like fun, does it? Yeah, yeah, you know, being involved with the, uh, uh, Lamont hypercar, you know, was really cool, you know, um, GTP hypercar, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I love function driven design function driven performance, you know, having worked on the black wing cars and, and, and some of those like, yeah. If there's a focus on making it faster and something I do as a designer is gonna make it slower, we're not gonna do that. So and you guys had, I mean, you know, I've, I've been to a bunch of the endurance races with the hybrid, uh, cars and like Cadillac. I mean, first of all, Cadillacs sound the best by order of magnitude. When they pull out of the pits, that's killer. I, I was, it was so funny. I went with um. Was it with Cadillac? No, it was with with Porsche for testing at Daytona. And uh when we get there, they go, OK, so there's two other teams here, we're not gonna say who, but you have to pretend like they're not here. And it was like, it was Cadillac, I know everybody there and it was like it was, it was Acura. And like, you know, the, the Acura goes out, it just doesn't make a sound basically, uh, the Porsche goes out, it sounds OK. And then the Cadillac goes out. I remember speaking of the TD I was with Magnus Walker, and we're standing there and we're like, you know, uh, the first banking and you know, you can kind of hear the cars and then the you know, after. The bus stop, you can't really hear him. Cadillac, you hear the thing all the way around the track. The best part is being in the pits. And when you hear it, when you hear it come out because they have the the the the speed limit in the pits starts silently and then it's like a bong goes off when it crosses boom. So the Google it, go to YouTube. And look for these, these, uh, the pullouts from, uh, the, the, the hypercars. It's, it's insane great noise. I went to the mall, uh, two years ago and the only thing better than the Cadillacs was that the NASCAR Camaro, the garage. It was that was fun to watch. That was, it was passing everybody, yeah, well, uh, let's play a game. So if, if it wasn't. I mean, who else at GM would be responsible for designing deliveries for the cars of advanced design, it couldn't be anybody in Detroit, right? What do they know about our fund raising? Like it's got to be the guys from the west, right? No, we do do most of, actually, most of our racing liveries are done in Detroit and our, we have a studio that does a lot of the, uh, they're uh they're part of uh the accessory, uh, accessory team. They do accessory motor sports, um, liveries and. Uh, even like the stuff on the side of the trucks and all of that, but, uh, maybe I can wrestle that job away from them. I don't know. Did you, did you go to, have you been going to any of the, the races in, uh, local, locally, meaning in the US, Vegas, Miami. I wish I could afford it. I, I was insistent on going to the first, uh, Vegas Grand Prix, and I looked at the prices and I was like. You know, they dropped that week. They, they went way, way down. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll have to look again, but, uh, well, now you just you can expense it, right. Well, hopefully I'm gonna get some tickets next time, yeah, there you go. So the, the, the, the Cadillac F1 car is for the 26 season. Yeah, 26. OK, so we won't, we won't see it for at least a year and it'll be the new chassis too. It'll be the be the half hybrid, yeah, 50%, yeah I mean that's. Cool. It is, yeah, it's super excited. I'm so like I'm so geeked about that that it's finally happening. It's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's great to have an American brand, totally, and there's so many races here now, you know, why not? And I mean if you count, you know, as we say, Mexico City and Quebec, there's, you know, 5 races in the Americas. Let's, um, let's play a quick, uh, because we're running out of time. Lightning round here. Uh, I, I, I neglected to talk a little about this in this, in the, the previous EV conversation, but what is something is, I don't know, is it small? Is it big? What does something like that, a GM adopting NACS chargers mean for, does that, does that come across your desk or is this do it to somebody else where you're like, uh, boss just said we got to put these new, uh, ports in the cars. And it's like you hand it to one of your guys and it's like 3 minutes and you're like, yes it's gonna look like, so you do it or no, you guys are not involved at all. Is that an engineering it'll it'll it'll be, it'll come across us when the cars get refreshed. I mean, I, the, the sort of the charge doors are already there, so, um. It's, it's internal stuff at that point, um, but yeah, it's, it's exciting to have the extra network. Uh, I mean, it's a big deal, especially out here. There's so much of it. Yeah, it's a game changer. What do you guys do things like, uh, charging units. Uh, we have a team that does that, yeah, yeah. Our industrial design team does that stuff. Yeah, that's that's part of GM. Uh, GM design worked with GM, OK, OK. Um, we, we, we've really been talking about Cadillac a lot, but GM is also Chevrolet and Buick and I'd say GMC, but the Hummer and GMC, um, how involved you're, you're just involved in all that as well as Cadillac. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cadillac's just some of my history, uh, coming out here, you know, to run the advanced, but we have, uh, we take care of all the brands. How did you decide, and I, I can guess the answer, but like the, the Silverado and the new, uh, Sierra EV are like pretty rat. looking trucks like you look at, OK, cyber trucks is the most radical thing, blah blah blah, but you look at like, you know, Rivian, it's a good looking truck, but it's, yeah, it's, it's kind of uh 3 boxes or 2 boxes and, and like Silverado is a lot happening and same with Sierra, like, how did you guys, OK, we're gonna make a break from what we do with regular Silverado. Was that How'd that discussion go or decision making process? Yeah, I mean, I wasn't involved in those, but, you know, uh, Being around them and in the building, I mean, it's really just a push to, um, to portray the future of an EV truck. I mean, really, um, you know, as soon as you take a grill off of a full-size truck, it's like, OK, now what, uh, especially because you everybody in the business has spent the last decade plus, who can build the biggest grill? Oh, they just keep getting bigger, yeah, yeah, I think like now it's Toyota and and GMC are sort of, yeah, yeah, and, and some of that's. By need, uh, you know, more, more and more power and, you know, more and more cooling, but, um. Yeah, it's, uh, I think, you know, they're very capable trucks and they had to look the part, but they also, you know, you've got to meet arrow targets. Uh, being an EV is extremely important. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I think it's just, you kind of take the, the customer needs, uh, the aerodynamic needs, and, um, and it's kind of you're changing the whole paradigm of what that vehicle is when you change the powertrain. So you roll that all into something cool and I, and I think, you know, GM designs on a roll. I think, you know, we're putting out some pretty nice looking product and uh pretty consistently. Good product and uh those are good examples of, I think, full size trucks for sure. Um, How much time do you spend working on or thinking about? The Chinese EVs, all the all that's happening in China. Well, we pay a lot of attention, um, and, um, it is uh remarkable. And something that we um. are paying a lot of attention to. Um, and, and we get, you know, we've got, uh, studios there, we've got, you know, two studios in China, and, uh, we get, you know, uh, reports from them, uh, from motor shows and, you know, a lot of interesting feedback from them, what's happening on the ground there, so we're, we're definitely paying a lot of attention, um. I think the uh Um, If they ever come to our shores, there will be some real challenges, um, you know, from a cost standpoint, they just, they just have such an advantage, um, from, uh, uh. Uh, uh, cost per man hour, uh, to put the cars together, right? Labor and subsidies help. I mean, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Have you, have you seen any design trends out of China that like that has spread beyond China? You know, and I'm, I'm just saying this kind of naively, but you know, there was back in the 50s and 60s, American design really shot around the world, but also Italian design really shot around the world. Is there anything you've seen with Chinese cars design wise? Because And like you, you did say it was remarkable and I think what you meant by that was like they were nowhere like 6 years ago and now, you know, wow, like selling a million EVs a month, you know. Yeah, I, I trend wise, I, I see a lot of uh. Similarity there's so many brands over there and over 100 and uh they're they're kind of Consistently landing in the same place, so there's kind of a sea of sameness which oddly we call it a good trend, but oddly within 1.5 millimeters of a Tesla Model Y, like in any direction, so weird. I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, you know, the front front end identities, you know, a lot of the slim lights, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're, they're very similar. So, um, and do you think that's just because it's, it's, um. It's a new thing and they're just like, like no one's willing to take risks. I mean, no one design risk, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. We've done a lot of research there, um, you know, I've done Cadillac research in Shanghai, you know, where we take the same car from LA to Shanghai and Remarkably very similar feedback from the customers like you expect the taste to be very different, um. But yeah, they're they're they're pretty progressive and and in on all the design trends there. What about Just getting away from the exterior, because the part that drives me nuts and we're trying to wrap our heads around in motor trend is all the stuff on the screens and the fundamental difference between That market and, and not just within the car, but within the digital sort of ecosystem, the phone, computer, content you're consuming, how you could karaoke is a big thing over there, like every car in China, in the back, you open the little accessory, there's a, there's the charger, there's maybe a spare tire kit, and then there's a karaoke microphone. Like, seriously, I'm not trying to, I'm not stereotyping, this is my people, but like, is like, how do you, how do you approach the stuff on the screens, like what, what for the different markets. Well, I mean, I think the needs are the general basic needs are the same. I think, yeah, I mean, we, uh, You know, we basically design our stuff to be global as much as possible. Um, there are obviously our Buicks, uh, in China that we don't sell here, like, uh, a whole bunch of them that are are China specific. But, um, we're always kind of trying to control the message around the brand here in the US, um, so, Uh, but, you know, we, we are really focused on, uh, software UXUI right now, and, and I think the, the big question is where do you go now, you know, screens can't just keep getting bigger. Well, you, I don't know. I, I saw that, uh, escalate IQ. I mean, that's, well, how do you go bigger than that and still see over it and I don't know. I, I, I still, I can't wait to get into that thing just because like, the amount of screens in that vehicle is just wild. You know, it's just like it's nuts. But that said, uh, we drove, uh, the Lincoln Nautilus, which we just named her SUV of the year, and it had a a pillar to a pillar screen and it worked because I was always like, that's nice you have a big screen. What are you gonna put in it? And they did a good job, uh, yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and quick and easy to kind of manipulate and change and all that. So yeah, you don't want to overwhelm the driver with stuff, right, that they don't need. So that's the key. Do you find, I was, I was with BMW one time and they were saying that they have like an IDrive development unit for Europe, they have one for the US and they have one for China because they just find that like, it's three very different markets and that like Chinese customers want different things from their infotainment than Americans do, and Americans want different than Europeans. Is that hold true with GM? Uh, I think there are some specific needs there, but, um, we, we, uh, we look pretty holistically across the global markets, generally speaking. I got 2 questions left from the staff. One was, and because you just mentioned Buick. They have a Buick GL8. They have the minivan over there in China. How come Cadillac doesn't have a luxury MPV? For that market, it's it's absolutely crushing it over there. They have Lexus, they're getting eaten alive by these Chinese, I mean, yes, but, but that's what I'm saying the LM, the Lexus LM, the, they're getting annihilated by this. There's one called Denza and BYD has these, these EV MPVs. It seems it's like half the price, yeah, well, that same luxury, half the price kind of the China EV. What what's? I mean, Cadillac has the Optic and vistic, which I think are. But not sliding doors on the big, the, the this kind of seat in the back, right? Yeah, that's great IQ has the uh executive rear seating, you know, center that's like the center console and 1.5 times larger than these these vehicles, right? Well, I mean, I guess, uh, I, I can point to one example that we did out here in California, the, the, uh, the Cadillac, um, PA, you know, there are, uh, autonomous. Vehicle that was shown along with the, uh, that's kind of what you're describing in an autonomous sense. So, you know, basically a big bold box that uh is is fully autonomous and it was called social space, right? So you could like hang out, go to the club with your friends and in style. It's funny that you bring up because that's exactly when I saw that when, when Tesla did the Robotaxi event and they're like, check this thing out. This is like their wait one more thing. I'm like, oh cool. Uh, Cadillac did that like 2 years ago. Toyota did that for the Olympics. Uh, this is not anything new. Blade Runner did that. Yes, Blade Runner did that like 20 years ago. Uh, fair. OK. Um, my last question, because you're, you are the head of the advanced design, is it fair to say that sometimes GM is too far ahead? Like We talked a little about EV1 first was EVs, right? OnStar. There's a, there's a whole bunch of these things. OnStar chassis, uh, skateboard chassis was, yeah, was not EV1. It was, I forget the name of it. It was, um, autonomy, yes, auto, right? And then Chevy Volt was like the first with the Erev, uh, but I'll tell you the one thing that actually kills me. this was like 2016, 2015, the, the GMTs, the suburban and Tahoe, remember had the screen that would slide up and you put your cell phone in there and it's a drug traffic and you could like charge your phone and then it would go down and then you couldn't access it when you're driving and I was like. Who's gonna use this? Now it's like, this is what everybody needs because when you're driving and everybody is like looking at the phone, you're like, put that, put that thing away. Where should you put it? How about a little box in the dash that you can't touch like. You guys ever go like, we had that, and now everybody's got it and we don't do that anymore. Well, I guess when you innovate, uh, you know, sometimes you can overshoot, but, uh, it takes time for people to catch up, I guess. But, uh, but like, I mean, you, I mean, I guess you guys have it now with Hummer like four wheel steering on the, on the big trucks like no, I guess nobody spent money to buy it, but like, well, it's great, yeah, yeah, and like Hummer, you can do a, you know, a, a U-turn in two lanes. It's, it's insane. Yeah, yeah, the crab walks really cool. Oh, and that too, yeah, the crab walks cool, just all that stuff, yeah. Um, any other staff? That's it. I can keep, OK, we killed it. All right. Oh yeah, we're super over. OK, well, good. No, it's fine. It's great. We we we could go on and on and on, but our Darryl's like, stop talking about. Well, let me, let me ask you this. I, I'm gonna try and do this question. Um, was he there when you went to the design studio? So there's, um, a very cool product that I can't talk about. That I think everybody will love when it happens, like when when when are we gonna see that? Can you, can you give us a time frame for the car we were building? There, yes, yeah, the, this is this is gonna be, this will be the podcast. I'm not saying what it is. I'm saying a very cool product that General Motors is gonna build. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the PR guy is very upset. Um, yeah, that, that, like, I, I heard about it, I can't say what it is, but man, that sounds cool, like, and something I was like, they should have been building this for 20 years. Um, when does that happen? Well, we, uh, we're, we're finishing those, uh, right now. Uh, 11 of the two vehicles is done, um, but, um, I'll say the date, time and date is not disclosed yet, um. But soon, soon. All right, very cryptic. We'll take, yeah, hey, it's funny to have cryptic. All right, then I'll just go to the last question because we spent a lot of time interrupting you and interjecting our thoughts. What is there anything? You wanna tell the. Future car interested audience, uh, whether it's internal combustion or EV uh. About what you're doing about what what to look forward to from GM from Cadillac specifically. Oh, that's a big one. That's a huge one. hang on to your butts, folks, it's gonna be awesome. Like, be super cryptic. I, I mean, I, I think, uh, I think there's a lot of resistance, uh, to EVs by people that haven't driven them. And I think as soon as you drive one, you'd be shocked, um. I stepped out of an escalade into my lyric and uh I. I, I don't miss the, I thought I would miss the Escalade, and, uh, I don't like, I just, it's, they're fun to drive, torquey, smooth, quiet, and, um, if you got a charger at home, it's like, I don't know, charge it a couple times a week if that, and you're good. So, uh, I think the, the Uh, the vehicles stand on their own merit and um it's there's no, there's no, uh, What I say there's no compromise. Like I, I guess I don't know what the compromise is, um. Long trips, you can all, you can find a place to charge, like uh there's plenty of great apps to show you where and uh. Just takes a little planning, that's all. OK. What is, and this is great, cause I remembered I wanted to ask you this, because, because you're a man of taste and distinction based on your car collection, what is the best, if you're to build the lyric in the configurator, and then maybe add some of your own aftermarket, what would, what's the best spec? Would you, cause I look at those, I see those lyrics, I'm like, you know, that thing just slammed, just a little bit more, just, just dropped. And on some big wheels and maybe they're the same color as the body or maybe they're like a dark bronze. So you're saying ultimate lyrics, yeah, what would you do? What would, what would like give me, give me a couple mods you would do for a lyric. Well, we, we, we just launched the V, uh, which would be the one to have for me. It's, it's it's a little lower. It's trimmed lower, the lowers are body color, uh, unique wheel. What color? Oh, that's tough, tough call. Uh, I don't know. I, I've, uh, I've got one in the, uh, kind of uh light gun metal, uh, which I like really shows off the form a lot. Um, there's a great red as well, you know, I think we did the clay model in red, uh, most of the time we were developing it, but Um, And then I've found just run it in sport mode all the time. Makes it more fun to drive. What about wheels? Would you, would you go with, um, uh, would you gotta have the 22s, um, yeah, the, the 22 inch, uh, dark wheel is kind of the way to go for me, but good, no chrome. I like that. Yeah. Oh, you black it out. Yeah, that's right, because it's a red black wheels. Perfect. Yeah, yeah, cool. All right, well, Brian Smith, awesome to have you on. We'll have you on again when you release a coupe. Uh, so you know how beautiful I'll get working on it. Uh, no, this is great. Thanks for thanks for taking the time for coming out. Thanks for having me, really good, really fun. Thanks.
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