Transcript
I was 17 when I became pregnant, was right after my high school graduation. It didn't take but a second. I am very fertile. I became pregnant. The birth father and I were going to marry his parents. Just cut that right out of the picture. So I was left on my own and it sounds so crazy to people today, but in the mid-sixties, if you were a single woman and pregnant, you were a pariah. You were not going to be accepted in society any way, shape or form. What that basically translated was, you know, I could never go on because people just pushed you aside, like with college or anything. I'd never get married because his my physician said to me after I delivered my son at 17, You know, you never tell your husband about this experience. No, what's damaged goods? Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of Living in Adoption Land. I'm your host, Brian Elliot. This is the podcast I wish I had before I started my journey more than 20 years ago. I explore the world of adoption, from positive stories to stories about heartbreak, trauma and sometimes even the lifetime of hidden pain. There are more than 500000 kids in the foster care system today waiting to find a home, while infertility rates are at their highest in history, not to mention the pain of a child or parents search for biological family, only to discover they don't want to be found. We'll also talk about the DNA science that is coming for your family secrets, the complexities, controversy and casualties in the multibillion dollar unregulated business of babies. All right, let's get into it. I'm Leslie McKinnon. I'm a clinical social worker, and my interest in adoption comes from the fact that I am also a birth mother who relinquished two sons to adoption in the 60s. Leslie, thank you for being on the show. I have so much respect for you and you're a pioneer in this category, the space you've been paving the way for all of us for all these years. Thank you so much for your efforts, for your great words, for your example. Um, I usually ask my guests, What is it like to live in adoption land? Hmm. Well, for me, Brian, it's been some of the most comfort I've ever had in my life in adoption land. When I came here and I found my people, it was like, Oh my goodness, somebody really understands and I don't have to go into tons of back story. They, as we all say in adoption land, they get it. And so. I just can't say adoption land is taken over any friendship, any. I mean it out. Does any group I've ever been in because they get it? On the other hand, those of us in adoption land do know that there are a lot of mighty angry people. And sometimes you know you get a tomato that hits you here with hair, sort of. And that comes with the territory. My one thing I say to people is, what do you think they're so angry about, right? They don't stop and listen. Yeah. So let's let's let's clarify a couple of things. So who are your people when you say you found your people and then who? Who is they? Uh, that is, you know, sometimes angry or upset. Right? Good point. My particular group are birth parents, people who relinquished children for adoption. That's my own personal group. But I get along quite well with everybody in the triad. I get along with adoptive mom, mothers, families, whatever. And adoptees, for the most part, I think the quickest answer you'd get about who's angry. The adoptees always get that label. But guess what? The birth mothers have plenty of that label to bear. There has been a lot of anger in the birth parent community. Yeah, I don't think it's so fair to give that label constantly to adoptees because in my estimation, they have every right to be angry. And if you want to go back in, this may be too much detail for you now. But if you want to go back to the loss that they experienced at birth, which we can now prove, I can give you as many, you know, research articles as you need that they lost so much when they were separated from their mom. And guess what? They were right at that point when people took them away. Most of them cried, screamed, turned red and were very angry. That's still in there. Oh yeah, because they were wired that way. Yeah. And so again, yeah, we can call them angry. But who made them angry? The people who started all of this? Yeah, yeah. As if they don't have a right to be angry. And that's just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about your experience. You're you're sort of famous for being mentioned in that book. Let's talk about that and that era. And part of that experience. If you're OK, going back in the chronology a little bit. Sure, sure. I was 17 when I became pregnant was right after my high school graduation. It didn't take but a second. I am very fertile. I became pregnant. The birth father and I were going to marry his parents. Just cut that right out of the picture. So I was left on my own and it sounds so crazy to people today, but in the mid-sixties, if you were a single woman and pregnant, you were a pariah. You were not going to be accepted in society any way, shape or form. What that basically translated was, you know, I could never go on because people just pushed you aside, like with college or anything. I'd never get married because his my physician said to me after I delivered my son at 17, you know, you never tell your husband about the experience. No, that's what's damaged. Good, right? As if you're damaged goods. Yeah, the shame and the you know, the the. I don't know that the sin of it, all right. The sin of it all and then that's what's so funny to not funny, ha. But but within five to 10 years, we were totally in the hippy dippy love everybody movement, sexual freedom. It's kind of like. The pendulum swung clear the other way. And suddenly, multiple sexual partners or whatever you could think of was, OK, you were just experimenting. Yeah. So your experience was before Roe Roe v. Wade. Yes, it was. Yes, it was. So that's important to note. Yes, it was before Roe versus Wade. And let me add something on that. That is important. What happened then was I did go off to a Catholic girls school. An old boyfriend came and visited me there six months into my freshman year after I'd had my first son. And believe it or not, the next day after his visit, I woke up and thought, Oh my God, I didn't. Did I did I? But with a pint of Rebel yell that I always tell everybody that's bourbon in the south that we both split. I had a total blackout, so I didn't know if I did anything or I didn't. Clearly, I did. I was pregnant with off to Vietnam, and I couldn't tell anybody. And Brian, I'll tell you the truth. If I'd had known where to get a safe abortion, I need to know where to get an unsafe one. Yeah, but if I had known, I'm a good Catholic and I think I would have done it. Yeah, yeah. Where were you living at the time? What state? I was in Florida. OK, OK. What was Florida? A progressive state? A conservative state at the time. At the time, it was more progressive. Yeah, it's turned more conservative because so many people retire there. Yeah. Yeah, you tend to get conservative the older you get. Yeah. Well, I was thinking, you're in like the Carolinas now, which is sort of the Bible belt, right? Like the South, you know, and I'm in the one little town in the state of North Carolina that happens to be very progressive and liberal. And anybody listening to this will know where I live if it's in North Carolina, because that's not not the norm, right? And so what did you do after the after this, after this pregnancy? I internally freaked out and I kept disassociating. I knew I was pregnant. That was never a not known fact, but I had this wonderful way to block it out. That's what I was taught after the first pregnancy. Forget this ever happened. Don't ever think of this as your baby. You know you'll go on with life and it'll be a bad dream. So. So soon. So who sent you away the first time we sent you? Was it your parents or? Yes, yes. To the maternity home my parents sent me. Uh-Huh. Okay. So they were living in a different state or a will. We were in Florida and the maternity home was just over the line in Alabama. OK. All right. So yeah, you were literally sent away to go have this child in secret. The the first one and then you got fed all kinds of lines, I'm guessing. Yes. Like, yes. You'll never remember this. You know, you'll have your own children. It'll all be fine. And just don't dwell on this. Put it behind you. Yeah, yeah. Put it behind you and get on with your life. Hit the reset button as if you could. Yes, it's it's like, could you give away your firstborn child and see how well you forget it? Are you? Were you? Were you? How are you doing it first? Um, the first. Yea, I mean, how did it affect you? Oh, I cried a lot, but I always did it in my car or I'd lock myself away in the bathroom, whether at work or at home, because I was also told not to ever speak of it again. And believe it or not, that carried through with my family. We never discussed it until the time came when reunion was on the horizon. And that was 30 years later. I learned that they'd been grieving. You know, we'd all been doing our grieving, but we did it separately, which makes absolutely no sense to me now. I'm just I'm trying to go there emotionally with you all those years back, and I just cannot get my head around the sorrow, the grief, the trauma. I mean, it actually is kind of helpful for me. I think, you know, my back story with my mom who didn't want to be found when I found her. Um, but actually, you saying it out loud? I mean, I've I've rehearsed it in my mind what it must have been like for her. And so I can I can try to be empathetic with that. I can't understand it, but I can try. And it must, yeah, must have been devastating, but like to hear to imagine you crying in your car or sobbing in the bathroom. Uh, it's just, uh, it well, it's it is crazy making. I was not allowed to tell my sister who was married but lived in our town, that I got pregnant. I could not have her two year old daughter. My parents came to visit me almost every Sunday in the maternity home, and but they could never bring her the two year old. My two year old niece, who was like my little sister because of the fear that she would say she saw Aunt Leslie. I couldn't even speak a sentence, but they were just concerned it might pop out of her mouth suddenly, you know, speaking in sentences so that the overdoing it was just asinine. Yeah. And that made you feel worse, because clearly, if your sister knew she wouldn't like you anymore. Right? You know, tarnished the family name, that kind of thing. Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's just inconceivable to me because I'm of a different generation, but it's just both. I can't. I'm just so sorry. It was awful. And speaking of the angry or birth mothers, and if you talk to me long enough, I could dig into that too. But we would like an apology. Absolutely. I have apologized to the mothers that had to relinquish in Australia, in Canada. They're working on one in Ireland. I wouldn't take, I wouldn't bet on it, but I think the Episcopal Church in America has has apologized to their members that lost their children. But you know, we want more. It's like, Yeah, so and you know, it was, uh. It was everyones fault, you know, it was I can imagine it was societal pressure and religious pressure. Uh. You know, your your your parents have fault in this responsibility, and so does the system. You know, we can be mad at the system, whether that's the. Religious system or the governmental system, the laws, I mean, they're all. So do you know what happened? Like right away, did you know what happened to your child, your first baby? Well, and I say today to people, it's beyond my Ken, and I usually tear up that I could have handed my child over to a nun. And never knew another thing about where he went. It's like. How did I just do that and trust that, and I only asked for two things in his life to be provided by his family? One was and the other wasn't. One was college and No. And one was Catholic. And that became that came through my mother, who wanted to be sure he was Catholic and that he was he was an altar boy. He is not Catholic anymore, I don't think. But anyway, there was tons of pressure, society pressure, and this may not sit well. But I do have a target along with society along with religion, which was overpowering. And that is, if you notice, no birth fathers were ever sent anywhere reprimanded. Given any anything. Yes. And these institutions have historically been run by men. I think you know where I'm going. Yeah. Bring it. I'm here for it. You know, I call them. Everybody that knows me knows I refer to the pasty white man who's been trying to control women's lives and a lot of other things for centuries. The patriarchy. Yeah, the patriarchy. And, you know, get off my neck. Yeah, I I had to respond to that. My the two birth fathers of my children went right on with their lives and never skipped a beat. I'm not saying they didn't have feelings about losing their child, but they had privilege. And that privilege was being a male color notwithstanding color of your skin notwithstanding. But still being a male, you know, is more of privilege at the time, especially probably even arguably still now, but argue the case Roe versus Wade, arguably still the court. Yeah. Yes. Although we do have a Supreme Court justice with, you know, a couple of adopted children who's pushing pretty hard to the to the alt right. Um, but yes, for the most part, the patriarch is still very much alive and well. Sure. But I'm looking at this as an opportunity. I'm really seeing this movement about Roe versus Wade being an opportunity for adoptees and the adoption land community to have a bigger voice because we'd like to tell you that's probably not a great solution for our pregnancy. Yeah, yeah. So. I mean, there's just so much to unpack. I mean, I'm just a little movie is going on in my mind where you're, you know, you're. You're you're a teenager, you know, and you are being pressured by your family, by society, by the church you grew up in, you know, to do the right thing with quotes. What's the saying, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, I'm sure they had good intentions for you, but you, you know you were just a child. You didn't know any better. And you know, what's a good girl? That's the hard part. Yeah, I was the good kid and I did what my parents told me. You wouldn't even consider not doing what your parents said. You need to do. Yeah. Well, you were. You were in a. You are in a crisis situation, you didn't know what to do and you fell back to this, the only authority that you knew your parents or the system of the church, maybe all three. And you just went along with it because you trusted them that that they knew what they were talking about. And it turns out that they were really wrong. Yes, really wrong. In fact, if you don't mind, I'll jump in there and say, Yeah. When I did begin to go search for my sons, the nun, the maternity home was the first place I went because I figured I'd see if they would give me anything they couldn't by law. But the nun there was so compassionate because I had to just get it out of the way. I said, Sister, I wish he was my only child that I relinquished. But 18 months later, I relinquished a second son and she said, Oh sweetie, if you knew the number of women that got pregnant really soon again, after this, it happened to so many girls. Some of them got married, some of them had abortions, you know, but you are not alone. And that's one of the things when I found adoption land Bryan, I thought I was a two headed monster. And to find other women that had relinquished to, I've met a couple that have relinquished three children. It's like, Oh my god, I really wasn't alone. But when they tell you not to talk to anybody? How would you figure that out? Yeah, I was listening to or reading. I think, you know, psychology is not my expertise, but it's my interest. And I was reading something fascinating. I don't know which it might be a Freudian theory that there's this repeated behavior that we have. Well, we have a tendency to do, you know where I'm going with this? I do know exactly where you're going. Do you know what it's called intergenerational trauma? And I present on it because I lived it. It took me until I was way grown up in my late 30s. I think where in my therapist's looked at me and said, Well, you did exactly what your mother did? Yeah, my mother abandoned me and my sister. I was five, so she must have been eight and I didn't see her again while I saw her one time. But until I was 12 years old. So for seven years, I had almost no contact. No nothing. And boy, my head turned around because that is exactly what I did was repeat the trauma. Mm hmm. She was horrified. She left us in someone's care. And they said she deserted us and so filed against her. And at that point, she couldn't get any contact. So I wish I could remember the exact term. But you know, intergenerational behavior is a thing. It's a phenomenon, right? Um, it's a real thing. And if we're imparting some advice to anyone that has any kind of trauma, Big T or little T, maybe that's a heads up that whatever your experience, you have a higher possibility of repeating that behavior. Absolutely. And you may not even know it. Absolutely. And if you've adopted children, the same goes right. Like it's I don't want to say they're a little ticking time bombs, but like there's a lot that may manifest later on in life that you didn't expect. It's sort of hard wired and this is another sort of heads up that, uh, people who you know, parents who adopt kids don't know about them, don't think about it. Exactly. They think, you know, love is enough to to clean the slate. And you know these it's going to be all nurture and know nature, and it's going to be they're going to be our little kid. And it's not the case now. And when you stop and think about that, the adoptee brings to the fore the intergenerational trauma from their birth family. Now I get kind of warm under the collar when people blame adoptees behavior or acting out, Oh, you're just like your birth mother. You know she was a skank. You're a skeptic, whatever. But they do bring that in because they're hard wired for it. It gets transmitted through the DNA. That's what we can prove now. Yeah. And when whatever home they're growing up in, you are in a petri dish and you could pick up a little more of somebody else's trauma without knowing it. Yeah. So you you guys got double duty, in my opinion. Yeah. And it's it's really, you know, it's something to really focus on, whether you are the adoptee and you know, you're experiencing it or you are the adoptive parents. And I want to go back to the psychological I really I'm going to look it up and I'll maybe listen in the show notes, but I was listening to Andrew Huberman. Andrews, a professor of science, all kinds of sciences at Stanford University is a really smart guy. He has a pretty successful podcast. And I was just listening to him yesterday. Talk to Dr. Paul Connty, who's written this amazing book highly recommended. Actually, it's called Trauma The Silent Epidemic. And that's Paul Connty, Dr. Paul Conti, CEO, A.I. and and they were both discussing again. And sort of I think it was another please don't quote me if I'm if I got this slightly askew. But it was this theory I think think they mentioned it was a Freudian theory that in an effort to correct our own behavior, um, separate from intergenerational things that are passed on this propensity to repeat the past of our progeny or of our ancestors. Is this thing that the humans are hardwired with, which is sometimes we can repeat, um? I don't say bad behavior, but behavior that's not good for us. In an effort to sort of like, you know, I imagine like a, um, a baseball player who's at the plate and and he takes a swing and a miss. It's just a big whiff, you know, and then with the same amount of effort and focus, you know, he's up at the plate and takes another swing and it's, you know, complete miss. Strike two And so. So we tend to repeat this sort of, um, possible bad behavior because the example that, uh, Paul County and Huberman were giving is, um, they're talking about these relationships and and uh, Dr. Paul does a lot of psychological therapy with his patients, and he was talking about this case study where a patient came in and said, You know, Doctor, I just don't understand why I keep picking the wrong partner. I've had seven bad relationships, and each of them has just ended in a train wreck. And he said, Well, actually, you've had the same experience seven times. This was seven different people. You're repeating the same mistake over and over and over and over again, and it's this which I hope I really wish I will leave in the show notes. But it's this that I think sometimes even I will say adoptees fall into this trap or humans fall into the trap and we have to watch out for that too. Yeah, yeah. Carl Young. Almost everybody's heard of Carl Young. He was right there with Freud as one of the, you know, game changers. And his most famous quote is those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Right, right. Mm hmm. So the notion has been around a long time, but now we have proof that you literally passed trauma through the DNA. Yeah, yeah. Um, so the second child, it happens 18 months later. Um, I would imagine that you you're trying to escape this or trying to numb your feelings. How is it the second time around? Hmm. Horrific. Not any more manageable. Oh, no less. I couldn't tell anybody. And the reason I couldn't is so simple, and I'm sure it sounds ludicrous, but I couldn't say it out loud. I literally could not tell my parents I've gone and done this again. I could. I didn't have a friend. I didn't have a sister. I was told, Don't tell anybody. Yeah. So how can I go and say, oopsie? I've done it twice. So journey complete solo journey. My step dad sat me down. When was it three three know a day or two before my birthday and said to me, Sweetie, I hate to say it, but you have gained so much weight. You look just like you did when you were pregnant with. We called him Joseph. And I sat there with tears, rolling down my face just like a sheet of him. And I remember thinking, put that in the form of a question. And he didn't. And I couldn't speak. And three days later, I delivered my son by myself in the bathroom in my family home. Wow. So and I will say even my parents were like, how did we miss that? But I did gain 75 pounds. I did wear very loose clothing. I did everything I could to hide it. I kept thinking, Bryan, oh, I'll think of something. I'll think of something. I'll I'll figure out how to fix this. I had decided I'd run away to Seattle because that was as far from Florida's I could come up with. And literally, that was in my mind, I'm going to run away. Do you know who runs away, kids? Grown ups don't run away. They leave. Yeah, yeah. So in my mind, I was going to run away from home and then tell wherever I landed that the father of my baby had been killed in Vietnam. And that's as far as I got with that scenario. But I will tell you what stopped me was. I hadn't been around my mother, but four or five years, and the thought of giving all that up again because in my goofy thinking, I thought, Well, there's no way I'll ever get to see them again because they can add two plus two. And if I came to meet them with a three year old, they'd say, Well, wait a minute. A three year old. And so I felt like I had to cut everybody off in order to raise my child. I would really be alone. Yeah, I drove too fast around a lot of curves in my cute little sports car, hoping to go out of control. It was an awful time. Awful, awful, awful. I can't even imagine. And after the birth, I can remember everything. I can see it. It looks like a black and white movie in my head and I can see it. Each scene like giving birth and then when the doctor came over and the different things that were done. But I'm like, in this big haze, it's like I was there, but I wasn't there. Nobody asked me what I wanted to do. They just took my baby and took him to an adoption agency. And I didn't say, No, no, no, I didn't say anything. Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine that you're in shock that you are. You're toggling. From top to bottom through the stages of grief. Sounds like, you know, you were heavily in denial. You're in a heavily bargaining. Oh, you know, maybe I'll do this, you know, maybe, you know, trying to figure out where to go? Uh, certainly. The anger came later, I'm sure, but like just all, all of it, you know, and not in order, but just like up and down the xylophone, you know, it's like, wow, four years, four years. I couldn't wait to get out of graduate school and get my butt in therapy. I couldn't afford it until I had a job, but it was like, somebody's got to help me make sense of this. Was this why you took the path of sort of help yourself? You know, was this was just that your road? Yeah, yeah. I I was always the one in college everybody came to when they needed an excuse to talk to their parents about why they weren't home at 3am when they called or 6am when they called him before breakfast. I was always the person who helped people word things a little better, a little more correctly. We grew up fast. I did. There was no kid left. After 17, the child was gone. I remember being on my college campus at our sorority rush and we were. I don't know if you've ever seen Sorority Rush, but it's pretty stupid. And we were all jumping up and down and singing these gay little songs. Come join our sorority. And all I could think was, these girls don't have a clue what life is about. They think it's about singing songs and getting somebody in the sisterhood. Yeah, emotionally, you're already, you know, middle age, you know, with life experience. You've had these children, this trauma, you've been through it down to hell and back several times. Yeah, I can imagine. So what advice could you impart then from your perspective to to these mothers who have gone through or might go through something that you've gone through? Mm-Hmm. Talk about it. Talk about it. Don't ever leave that kind of horror and trauma inside to this day in this interview. It is embarrassing for me to tell people that I got pregnant again. I always think the other person, it's like, I can read this little thing on their forehead that's saying, Girl, you didn't know what concept the first and I would be saying it to. So it's still embarrassing to talk about it. But it's the first time I achieved freedom. Brian is the first time. It's like, Well, nobody can tell you before I'm getting ready to tell you, and I am a nice person and I have tried to live a life of doing good things. That is how I became a social worker because I thought. If I've lived through this. There must be some reason, and I must be here to help other people when they. And witness their pain. And and so that's what I tried to do. So there is what I'd say to mothers is talk, talk, talk, get wherever you need to be to find a community that will support you if it's not your family. You're going to have to find another one. I'm working on a project right now with mothers from my era. And we have brochures that we're putting out in different places that say, Are you having a crisis pregnancy? Wait. Don't sign anything until you read this little pamphlet. And then we just say there's help available. You'll never learn this at an adoption agency. But we have women who will help you financially with baby layouts, with all kinds of things. Don't make this decision that is lifelong and permanent in the middle of a crisis, because in six months when there's a precious baby here, there will not be a crisis. Yeah, there's no there's no second chances here. And so this is a good actually chance to ask your opinion on this. I have my opinion. I sort of know, I think I know what you're going to say, but let's just get it out there. So, um. How do you feel about. And adoption in general, should people relinquish their children? Is there a place for adoption in this country? There is a place for adoption in this world. There are children. That have lost their parents for a variety of reasons, whether it's to a substance abuse or, you know, death or a plane crash. And there are situations where there is not another member in their family, no matter how distant to raise them. Well, then adoption definitely needs to occur now. You don't have to change anybody's name. You don't have to change their identity. This child is still who they were, whoever racism. Yeah, and that's part of their story. That early loss. It shouldn't be cut off and turned into a gift or a secret, a secret or a gift. You lost your parents, boy, but did you get a good set? Could we stop and pause at the first sentence there? So I think there's a place for adoption, but I cannot tell you how rare I think that is. I think that children should stay with their families if humanly possible. And if you think agencies and other situations that are advising young expectant women are telling them about all their options. No, they're not. No, they're not. Usually, when a gal gets to go in to talk to a agency, that's because it's the only option she could come up with. Yeah, yeah. There wasn't one. And when I say it's do you have a choice when you only had one option? And they were all saying, Oh, come on. Oh you courageous, wonderful woman. This shows how much you love your child beyond existence. You love this child because you're willing to give him up so that he gets what he needs. Yeah, heroic. Even heroic. And we were groomed with that constantly, and they are still groomed like that today. Yeah. And and. Here as they collect the paycheck on the other side for 20, 30, 50, $100000, you know, the multibillion dollar business of babies unregulated, by the way. And I will say, you may cut this out. That's okay. I will say that I'm just participating in a big event next week and it's talking about the trafficking of international children. And when I say trafficking, I mean trafficking. And it occurs here in America, when you collect 40 to $60000 for a child's adoption. You sold a child. You can call it anything you want. But the child was sold because if that child was black, the price goes down to $15000. OK? And if they have special needs, it goes down even further. And that is what is called an adoption exchange only. We have all these pretty little words to describe it. Oh, she made a placement playing for her child. Oh, she did this. That is selling children, and I am sick to death of the fact that we don't speak it as it is. Yeah. And why don't you think? I mean, I have my I know the answer to this in my mind, but I want to hear you say it because you're amazing. Why don't you think we talk about it like that? Why don't we call it what it is? We have been incredibly indoctrinated to a view of adoption that is not at all accurate. It's kind of like when you were 14 and you saw that Marlboro man on a horse and you thought, Man, if I just smoke one of those cigarettes, I'm going to be like that. Well, we've been listening to that kind of pitch about adoption since the beginning of time. And there it is, a billion dollar industry and there are people professionals making big money off of it and agencies, and they don't want to give that up. Yeah, but but yeah, so is. Is it just money? Oh no. It's also a privilege, and I come here gently because in my not in my mind, it is. Infertility is the second worst diagnosis you can get. The first one is a Big C cancer, but infertility is so traumatic and people don't always realize it's not just you can't have kids. It goes to the core of your being. It's primal. It's like, Oh, something's really wrong with me. Everybody can have kids. Yeah, you're broken. You're having kids. Yeah. And so it's a horrible place to be. But just because you can't have kids. That doesn't necessarily mean you should take somebody else's and. I mean, this splitting another family apart, right? You're not entitled to the child. Yeah, that's entitlement. And people ask me all the time, Brian. But yeah, but what about gay people? And I say I do not have the answer, and I feel a lot of empathy for anybody that wants to raise children and can't. Yeah, I was going to finish that sentence, which is you're not entitled to a child at the expense of someone else losing theirs. That's right. You know, if I was born without an arm, what would I do? Come out, look around and say, Oh, that's a good arm. Let me see if I can cut that lady out of it. Yeah, yeah. But fortunately, just, you know, based on the numbers, uh, uh, whether you're a queer or whether you're not able to have children the natural born way, there are options. There are kids. There aren't kids out there, you know, as you mentioned, who need a home. And and I'm going to be realistic because I'm a social worker and I have worked in foster care many, many, many years ago, and I will say there are children. In fact, Europe adopts more of our African-American and children of color than we do our kids out of foster care. Most people don't know that. Also, those kids are damaged, and I'd be a liar to tell you anything else. And so are there going to be more problems with them? Yes. You're not going to get this beautiful little infant that you only think came as a blank slate. That child has damage, too, but you can't see it yet. You'll see it with a kid out of foster care within the first week or month or whatever. They need homes worse than anybody. And we've got all kinds of new techniques now that we can teach parents on how to get around some of those huge hurdles. It's not easy, but they need homes and they are there. But if you want the, you know, picket fence and all that, no, that might not be for you. Yeah, I'm still stunned really at the lack of education is another reason I want to do this podcast. I almost imagine it. You know that famous book you know what to expect when you're expecting? Yes, I sort of I sort of think of this podcast is like, what to expect when you're in adoption land, you know, whether you are the parent or the child, or maybe you're struggling with infertility, you know, and you just need to know what to expect. And I'm stunned with the lack of education. I mean, I think probably it requires, you know, some effort and some training and some education when you're adopting. I don't know all the hurdles you have to jump through, but I don't think it's much to maybe educate me. Any therapist will tell you. Working with families in adoption that the adoptive parents are the hardest people to reach when you're talking straight, Adam. And that's where a lot of the work lies. And again, I'm not trying to make them villains. They didn't get very much at all because I've taught those classes on adoption that parents are supposed to go through before adopting. And they're very brief and very mild. They don't drag in, they Drogin, a birth mother like me to say, you know, kind of like, this is the birth mother you're going to get. And I'm not putting myself on a pedestal, but I know some of the kids that they're going to get. Birth mothers have had unbelievably horrible lives. Here's ill pitching suddenly that this is all going to work out well. Just give them love. Just, you know, give them love and everything will be okay. I wish it would. So why do you think it's so difficult? What do you think? Um, why don't these adoptive parents want to be as receptive as, yeah, why are they? Why are they in denial? Well, they are in denial. That's my feeling. And many adoptees I know grown 40 50 are also in denial and won't appreciate me saying that in the least. But until you're dealing with your issues that brought you to adoption land, you're in denial. Yeah, because you've been sitting on some stuff that's been very painful that, like you said, like seven times you repeat a same behavior and you've got to get underneath it and see what it is. I had adoptive parents all the time. They'd walk in the room and they'd say, Well, we don't know if this is adoption related or just teenage related. And I'd say I probably won't know at the end of the therapy, either. And then they'd go, Well, wait, we thought about it. Yeah, but I don't get to divide it out quite like that. I could tell you then an adopt T teenager is like adoption trauma on steroids. Yeah, it's probably baked in. But they do the same things. They run away, they do drugs, they curse you out, they make bad grades. They don't have new behaviors to do to say, Oh, this is an adoption issue. Let me be clear, it's just like a little toggle switch, you know, misbehaving based on adoption, misbehaving as a teenager, it's like a toggle switch, as if you could switch it back and forth to know that parents want to have someplace to sit it. And I don't think they were being blaming of a birth family. They were just. Is this because he's adopted or is this because she's adopted? They're having trouble. Let's just get under it and see what it's about. Yeah. And I can speak from experience, I was probably guilty of this, too. I mean, talk about denial or bargaining, you know, the grief stages. I can tell you all these years later, I'm a full grown man, I'm still cycling through various stages of the grief cycle at different times, and I've been, you know, a lot of soul searching, but still. And there is a point and this is probably denial where I was like, how could I still be bothered by this issue? I'm a full grown man, you know, middle aged man, I've kids of my own. Why am I still upset about this? This can't be right. And guess what it can be? It can be one of the things we know about trauma now, and this is some of the biggest trauma. A little tiny human can have to be separated. They say it's worse than going through for an infant than going through heroin withdrawal when you remove it from the infant from its mother, and that infant got wired in the lower places of the brain to have these feelings. Yeah. So there are reacting to those feelings, all their lives. And one of the things I heard early on in the community was, Oh, by the way, you're never going to get over this. And I was like, what? Because I'm a positive person and I want to get over it, but I've never gotten over it. And I hate to tell you this as I've aged. In some ways it's gotten worse because I can see it through such experienced eyes now that I know why in the world. Like I said before, did I participate in handing my child to a stranger? Why didn't I had the gumption to say, Yeah, no, wait a minute. Yeah. You have clarity now you have and you have the perspective of, you know, being a full grown adult with clarity and knowing this is part of the reason why I have I'm estranged from my adoptive mom is because all the things that we went through together through her multiple divorces. Now that I'm grown up, I see how poorly that was handled and I can't. I had to create boundaries for self-preservation. She's a she's a good person, but just like I had to, you know, create. Boundaries, there's no family loyalty that would be deep enough for me to. Open that or have that open wound continue to be be hurt? I digress a little bit, but I want to go back to um, well, you digress. But let me just say that is why it's so important for adoptive parents to understand adoption better. Yes. So important because we lose them. We have to push them away. We have to say you have no understanding and everything you're saying is like pouring gasoline on me and we got to get a distance. If they could understand if they could be compassionate. And let me tell you, there are hundreds of thousands today who can be. Then they can continue their relationship with their child because they get it right. Yeah. So well said. Thank you for saying that. You're absolutely right. And I think that's the other sort of implicit advice we're giving, which is. When in if you've adopted a child and they tell you they want to search for their biological parents, you have this opportunity to step up and be their champion to be their support system, their their safety net say, Hey, I would love to walk in here with you, although many adoptees want to go on a solo journey, and that's fine too. But like just to say, I'm here for you when you need me, um, I got your back. Uh, how can I help? You know these? I tell parents that all the time, because if you don't have their back, then they're going to go somewhere else and you're going to lose some of the closeness you had with them because they're going to have to keep walking around the most monumental thing that happened in their life, whether it was a crappy reunion or a fabulous reunion. They can't talk to you about one of the peak experiences of their life. Yeah. Leslie, can't we just put the past in the past, though, and just forget it? All right. Uh, didn't we just give you everything blood, sweat and tears, you know, took you to those baseball practices and and all that effort we gave was just for nothing, wasn't it? You ungrateful, little ungrateful son. So I paid for college for you. For goodness sakes. I made an investment. Oh, back to the money again. I made it an investment. And you're not acting like you're supposed to, because that's a piece that I've never seen taught in preparation for adoption is. You got to get yourself out of the way. Yeah. And really learn the inner workings of your child. Yeah, I think it's that book. Let's see which was, it's here myself. Oh yeah, it was. It was lost and found where I read. Um, and it was so insightful to me to read. I think it was lost and found where it was like, you know, if if you are, if you have adopted the child, you have to remember that you're that child's mother or father, but not the only mother or father. And so my best friend and his wife adopted, you know, they couldn't have children the natural way. And as you say, you know, the trauma of infertility is real. It's deep, it's. It's. US more than valid, I mean, it's it's legitimately devastating. And uh, and so my dear friends have just tried to overcompensate and and help their adoptive kids out. And, you know, to a fault, you know where this behavior problem started to become an issue as it grew into their teenage years? And and I I had this conversation with her. I said, I've just recently read this book. It's amazing. You should read it, by the way. And um, and she was going through the same thing where she's just trying to be super mom. And I said, This isn't about you. You know, you've done all you can, so you need to cut yourself some slack and just do what you can do and then understand that a lot of this is DNA. It's inescapable. You could do your best, but like, you know, sometimes you just have to be there to pick them up when they fall and you know why. And one of the, you know, the basis of all this should be, how about the truth? How about we don't pretend that you are literally our child that we gave birth to? We don't discuss your wonderful parents because if there's anything wonderful about you, it came from those wonderful parents. Why aren't we in contact? Why don't we have, you know, more? They want to minimize the impact that a child was adopted, adopted? Excuse me. And I think that comes from they've been through so much pain and now we've done it. We got a kid. Let's just forget all that. Yeah. And you cannot. You cannot, and you cannot pretend like it isn't real. It's real. And I think that's part of it. And you know, like we've kind of said throughout this whole talk is that. Adoption land is so personal. There's not a one size fits all answer for everyone. In the case of my friend and his wife, they shouldn't have contact with one of their sons, fathers because he's a criminal and it's it's not healthy or safe. And so that's completely logical and makes sense why you wouldn't. But in most of the other cases where you can't have these and it's sort of laughable to me, you know, when people say, Oh, it's because my adoption was done under the table was a handshake. I'm pretty sure no money was exchanged, which is fine, but it was under the table and it was decided in 24 hours. Um, a deal done at home study. Well, it was. It was brokered by the doctor, the family doctor who was the doctor of both families and and similar to your experience, my mom hid the pregnancy from her parents, who didn't tell them her parents found out the day I was born. Uh, in fact, my dad, who was her boyfriend at the time she was 17, had to leave football practice and come pick her up and take her to the hospital. Um, in any case, these open adoptions and we haven't really openly discussed it, we sort of alluded to it. The problem with open adoption is that the once the papers have been signed, the parents give up parental rights. The relinquished where a lot of people don't know is that's absolute right at. You get nothing. It's done. You are you are severed from your birthright. Doesn't matter if you're blood related, and that goes for me to lecture on the child side. I've talked a little bit on the podcast. I think my mom came from a wealthy family. I think she's afraid that I've come after her fortune, which legally I have. First of all. Personally, I have no desire. I'm doing fine. I'm thriving. I'm happy. But legally, I have no claim to. Um, but the problem is, um, adoptive parents, once they get hold of that child, they can keep. Sort of hold hostage the bio parents, uh, and claim. Well, we don't like your behavior. Maybe you're going to be a bad influence on this kid or or maybe it's your uncle's a bad uncle, you know, whatever the excuses. But that's that's why these open adoptions can be even more painful than a closed adoption because you can see them and you like, maybe you know, you claim to give these families access and yet you're holding them hostage or with these great restraints or or or parameters or you know, and you know, you're clearly in a position of leverage and authority over over the biological parents who are probably still in pain. And probably still, I would guess most times financially, um, at a disadvantage, et cetera. And it's just like, it's not any better these open adoptions. I guess what I'm saying is I don't think are any better and possibly worse than a closed adoption. What are your thoughts? When I first came into this field because it was not kosher to say that we should reduce the number of adoptions to how I see it now, I thought long and hard for open adoption, open, open, open and I told expectant mothers if they were thinking about it and adoptive parents, I don't think I ever counseled anybody that I didn't get them to at least say, OK, we'll have an open adoption. Those were on varying ranges, but my point was it is the best thing for the child. And I'd say that today, yeah, it's painful for the child. It is still better that he no. Those or that one birth parent stayed the course. Loved you the whole time, yeah. And you know. Knew that you cared about them. However, open adoption is hardest of all on the birth mother. I think at times the adoptee too, and I've seen a whole lot of open adoptions because I've been around so long that when the adoptee gets to their majority, they cut the birth family off. You did it to me. See ya. That's the dodo. I don't have a research study on that. I give you the no, but I can tell you a lot. I can also tell you and some people do have this number, not me, but there's a unbelievably high percentage of open adoptions that were agreed upon. It's up in the seventies. I think that then close after the child is adopted and all the paperwork is signed. They may wait a few months. They may wait a year. The really good time that they wait till is when a child is five or six, because that's when kids start asking questions in. Many adoptive parents decide this isn't good for them to get into these painful memories. Yeah, yeah. Deep sigh. It's complicated. Yeah, but I do agree with you. Um, for me, as an adoptee, the not knowing was the absolute worst. Your mind wanders eventually, you know, and it becomes relevant. You don't have access to your medical records. You don't know what runs in your family. You have no heads up. You're absolutely right. Knowing something, even if it's painful, is better than not knowing absolutely always everybody that goes through a reunion. And I think you, I think I would know your answer here is. So glad they did it, even if they got the door slammed in their face. Yeah, they tried. They knew they did all within their power. You can't control that other person. So yes, I think it's better. I want to add one small little point. And you mentioned with your friends who one of their children's dad was a criminal. And so that might be somebody not to be around. And I totally get that. Don't get me wrong, but I always tell this story when I hear things like that because, well, I have to that. We use that that's been used a lot. I'm not saying in your instance, but to say, Oh, well, they're dangerous and we can't let them around or they're an alcoholic. OK, so you meet them at McDonald's or at Chick fil A in front of the malls and let the kid play. Do you think they're going to be drunk when they get there? They are. You leave, right? That's an easy one. You leave. I had this young man had probably about your age and he was fabulous, and he was biracial and searched and found his birth mother, who was his white parent. And they had no reunion. No stars went off, no anything. But he said he was glad he met her. And then a year or two later, he found his birth father and he was in prison for life in Chicago. And I said, Are you going to go meet him? And he said, I'm thinking, I don't know. Well, he did go meet him, and he came back to talk to me and he said, Oh my lord. He was the biggest cocaine kingpin arrested at that time. He got a life sentence. That's when everything was really hard on people, and he will never see daylight. But he did go to college since he's been in prison. He did earn his J.D. degree since he's been in prison. He can't practice because he's the felon. But what does he do? He helps the other prisoners with their cases. And my client said he was the kindest human being. He has a great sense of humor. And now I know why I'm so good at business. I just chose businesses that were legal. So he has an ongoing relationship and we sometimes forget. Yeah, well, people are not the one or the maybe series of bad acts that they committed. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That's a good reminder not to just toss someone away. Uh, based on a judge, I'll tell you one other story I think I should share here before, which is, uh, so my mom was married three times before I was 16. My adopted mom. And so I never grew up with a dad like a shuffle from house to house. We lived with grandma and grandpa for a while. We live with friends. I mean, you know, wherever um, and you know, as part of the research for this podcast, I started, uh, thinking, Uh, I said, Hey, wait a minute. You know, my first dad that I knew was this adopted dad, and they divorced when I was like five. We moved from Los Angeles to Rhode Island. And I was told that story that he was abusive and an alcoholic and terrible person. That's why they divorced. Well, I tried to track him down. And this was like last month, Leslie and I found him. Unfortunately, he had passed away the month before. But I was able to talk to his son. Who is about a year older than a year younger than me? OK. And I said, You know who I am? And uh, I mean, if I'm going to be honest, you got a little defensive and you'd not known about me. It was a surprise. And that made me that sort of told the story that he had not heard about me. Yeah. And I said, Uh. Well, what kind of man was your dad? He said, Oh, he was the best dad. You know he. When he coached all my my little league teams, he you know, we went to church every Sunday. He was like my best friend. And he was just like a legend. And my heart sank. Because I felt like, you know, in my mom's defense, maybe that was what happened at that time. But now, like, I don't believe her, think I was just fed lies more lies right to the narrative that was what which she needed to tell me to justify, you know, leaving. And then, um, I was actually legally adopted. But my my second stepdad, uh. And, you know, it's I've had five different last names, by the way, it's been very confusing. But anyway, my club, I have parents who did that and but I and I have this memory of being in the court when she married the second guy who turned out to be not a very good guy in real life because I can testify that he didn't. He didn't give to Wits about me. It was, you know, I was I was in his way. In any case, it just makes me think that maybe this is advice that you sort of helped draw out of me, which is don't judge a book by its cover. I don't necessarily believe the narrative that you're being fed get the facts. And even if they are facts. Maybe there's some redeemable quality or something to be found. Even if you know that young man's father was in prison terms, it seems like he was trying to do the best with what he had in, you know, in prison. And so there's maybe something that can be redeemed of that, and there's some value or lesson to be learned. And so you just have to be careful, right? Like, sure, be careful. The other story I referenced is a mother who adopted a number of children out of foster care. Some of them very, very difficult. And she had found a way to keep them connected and shared it with me. So then I started sharing it with all the families, and that was the she was African-American. The children were African-American, and she said a lot of them had summer reunions, family reunions, and she would be sure to always take the child to the family reunion. Because even if somebody you know, the father or the mother showed up out of order. Trust me, the family would take care of it, right? But that child met all the other people that loved him, and it gave her a way to kind of see who was would be responsible with him and follow through with the relationship. So she gave him other relationships might not have been the direct parents. And those are very valuable. Oh yeah, and and that's a good point. You know, like so so if if the parents can't keep the child, then who? And the answer is, well, how about brother and sister and uncle? How about grandma and grandpa? How about, you know, cousins extended family? There's lots of ways to keep that child in the family tree? Absolutely. And I my joke, not a joke not meant to be against anybody is that. African-Americans have always had the answer to adoption. Don't just find a family member that is called kinship adoption, and that is the number one recommendation if two parents or one parent can't raise their child, keep them in the tribe because if you do, then they have access to all of their stories, all of their history, and they can combine it with the life that they are living with their new adoptive parents. But you didn't have race them adoption, a race racist people. And that's not OK. As always, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave a review and as many stars as you think the show deserves, it helps more people find us and join the community. I mean, I want to hear from you. What do you want to know about adoption and how can I help? Are you a parent who has given up a child and and you're wondering, you know, how to find that child or whether or not you should reach out to contact them? Are you an adoptee like me and you want to know how to go about it? There's resources out there I can point you to. Are you? Are you thinking about adopting a child or bringing in a child from foster care? Leave me a note or message. Reach out to me. Somehow, you can leave me a question via speak pipe. It's a speak pipe dot com forward slash adoption land. You could do it privately or anonymously. Um, and I'll do my best to answer your question on one of the next episodes, but I appreciate you listening. I love you guys. This is therapeutic for me. I hope it's helpful and healing for you, and I'll catch you in the next episode. Thanks very much.
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