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Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 375 of The True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast, I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing good. You sound really excited there. I am super excited for this episode. This is one that you and I have been wanting to do for quite a while. Not sure why we waited as long as we did, but before we get into it, let's go ahead and give our patron shout outs when that chore jumped down to our highest level. Well, thanks for that. Sonya wig fall. What's going on? Sonya Reyna? Well, hi Rayna. Natasha de Silva. Hey, Natasha. Lindsay, Mont. Oh, thanks, man. Amos Lawson there is Lawson. James Schultz jumped down to her highest level. Thanks Schultz. Travis Mon. Travis, Amber Shaw. There's another show two shots. Two shots don't make a away. And last but not least, Kelly Rowland. Hey, Kelly. And then if we go back into the wall this week, we selected Ben Murphy. Hey, there, Murphy. Yeah, I appreciate the new support to continued support. So Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time where we're talking about Beverly Carter. She was a successful real estate agent in 2014. She thought she was meeting this married couple to show a property, but that's not what they had in mind. It was not. They had kidnapping for ransom on the agenda. And then from there, things went even worse. So that's out right now. Make sure you check it out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time unsolved? I am ready. We are talking about the death of Rebecca Zahar. This is a very well known case. Yeah. Rebecca Zazzau died at the historic Speckles mansion in Coronado, California, in July 2011, two days after a tragic accident occurred inside the home. Rebecca's official cause of death was suicide, but her family believes there was foul play and I don't think they're alone. I think there are a lot of people who have questions about how her death really occurred. There's definitely a lot of chatter out on the internet for it. Rebecca Zazzau was born on March 15th, 1979 in Burma, which is now called Myanmar. She was one of six children and was very close with her sisters. The family lived in a town near the Indian border. Rebecca's family is Christian. Interfaith was an important part of her life. She lived in multiple countries throughout her life, including Nepal, Germany and the US. She spoke three languages Nepali, Hindi and English. You know, I'm somebody that speaks a lot of different languages. Yes, it's so that's impressive that she was doing it as well. I think you sometimes confuse languages with bad accents, but I'll give you your fantasy Nepali language. It's not easy to master. Let me know when you do. Rebecca's sister Mary's how laner said that she was funny, charming and was always there for people when they needed her. Rebecca was dedicated to her family, and she and her siblings helped support her parents, and I am hoping that that happens. For my wife and I later on down the road, I think you've got a 50 50 chance with one of your daughters. Well, I'll take those on. Rebecca was also described as a health nut. She was very disciplined about what she ate and avoided alcohol. You used to be that way, not the avoiding alcohol. You've always, you know, you're not a big drinker. No, I'm not a big drinker anymore, but you used to be pretty like aware of what you're reading. Oh, I'm still aware of what I'm eating. I not in a good way. Just not in a good way. Rebecca lived in Arizona in the early 2000s, from April 2008 to December 2010. She worked at Horizon AI Specialists and Lasik Center as a certified ophthalmology technician. She was described as high energy and great with patient, and I love that Lasik, so I did it to myself, save the money and I did die at home care. I can see almost everything about two feet out. Yes, she does sound like an amazing person, right? Very family oriented takes care of herself. You know, when you think high energy and great with patients, OK, that's a good. Domination, sure, is when you're in that type of field. But Rebecca was arrested for shoplifting in 2009 in Phoenix. The case was later dismissed by the court. Around 2009, Rebecca met her boyfriend, Jonah Shacknai, at work, according to her sister, Mary. Jonah is a multimillionaire and the former chairman and CEO of Medicines, a pharmaceutical company based in Scottsdale, Arizona. Jonah was over two decades older than Rebecca. You know, age is just a number. That's all it is for many. Many people now. Being a multimillionaire normally does not hurt when it comes to the dating scene. Or so I've been told I am not a multi-millionaire and you are not on the dating scene. That's that's true. So it's kind of immaterial at this point. Jonah was twice divorced and had three children, two teens from his first marriage and a young son named Max. He and his ex-wife, Dina Romano, divorced in 2008. In 2007, Jonah purchased the historic Spracklin Mansion, a 60 600 square foot home in Coronado, California. It was built in 1948 by a powerful local businessman named John Speckles. This is where Rebecca Zal dot 6600 square feet is no small hut. No, that's a healthy size estate. Well, especially you think about 19 08. That would have been a pretty big house in 19 08. Oh yeah, yeah. I'm sure you've got a lot of attention and I'm sure it cost a pretty penny. Now, Rebecca was still legally married to a man named Neil Nhlapo when she started dating Jonah. We're back in Neil Matt while they were attending the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Austria. She was in her late teens. They were married for eight years and their divorce was not finalized until February 2011, according to Rebecca's sister, Mary. The marriage was up and down. OK, I think you can say that about a lot of marriages, but everybody has their ups and downs. I think though, when her sister is describing this up and down is maybe a little more frequent ups and downs than what most of us are used to. That's the feeling I got Rebecca successfully petition to change her name back to her maiden name, Zahav, in May 2011. Rebecca's former boss told the San Diego Union Tribune that she stopped working to spend more time with Jonah and his kids. Well, you know him being a multi-millionaire. Maybe she didn't need to work the way that she did before she met him. Rebecca also stopped attending church when she started seeing Jonah, but she considered going back around the time she died. And I think you see this in some relationships. You know, I said it right? Her faith was very important to her. But when you're in a new relationship and you know you're so enamored with someone, many people kind of start to take on certain aspects of that person's life. So if they don't attend church and you were a big churchgoer, maybe you dial it back and you don't go as much as you used to. Yeah, sometimes you just make changes because you're in this new relationship and you want to make sure it works out and you want to make sure you spend more time with that individual. So there's some things that you wouldn't normally do that now you don't. Yes. Mary Zazzau, laner, told Oxygen that Rebecca put her life on hold to move to Coronado to be with Joan. Rebecca helped run the household and took Max and Jonah's older children to their activity. Mary said she quit her job because it was impossible for her to work and be available to drive the kids around. Well, I get that it would be pretty difficult, right? I mean, basically, you're doing the activities of a parent or a nanny or a nanny means it could be a full time job, right? Depending on how many activities these kids have. Yeah. Rebecca developed a close bond with Max. They established a routine where Rebecca prepared meals for him, read to him and played with him. The my thing is, you know, this can often go one way or the other. The new person in these children's lives. They can bond with very well, or they can butt heads with, and we've seen it happen both way. Absolutely. Now it seems like in this case, at least as it concerned the max, they got along very well. Rebecca's family did not know Jonah well. Mary saw Jonah four or five times before her sister died. He was going often because of work, she told the San Diego reader. Jonah is a difficult Mandiri. We didn't ever have much of a conversation. Usually it was dinner or something like that. It wasn't easy for Rebecca to fit into Jonah's family. According to Marry, her close relationship with Max caused resentment from his mother, Dina Rahman. You're going to have things like that. You're the you're the new woman in Jonah's life and also now Max's life, and I'm sure the ex is not going to really appreciate that. No, I'm sure many don't. And maybe it wasn't so much about Jonah as it was Max, right? Who is this woman, you know, spending so much time with my child, getting so close to her? Mary told the San Diego reader that Dina was rude to Rebecca and asked her not to attend functions with the kid. OK. It's a little rough. Yeah. I mean, hey, we're going to functions with my kid. How are you supposed to take that? You know, it's going to be kind of rough. Well, where's Jonah right in all of this to stand up and say, No, she's going to attend functions because she's my girlfriend or whatever label they had put on it. Mary mentioned that Rebecca said she loved Jonah, but was disappointed by certain things, like the fact that his teenage children were allowed to be openly rude to her. Jonah would not defend her against that. And maybe it's part of the same reason why he didn't stand up to his ex-wife. Yeah, for her. But that's a problem, right? Yeah. I mean, you can't allow children and I get it. These are teenagers, but you can't allow them to be openly rude to someone whom you care about. It's not going to be good for the relationship. It's not good for them, either. Right? Yeah, they shouldn't be doing that anyway. But in May 2011, Rebecca's family visited her in California and spent most of their time cleaning the house. Many people thought Rebecca was living in luxury, but this wasn't true. According to her sister and I really thought that that was a strange statement. I had to kind of think about it for a while. Her family comes to visit, and they're helping her clean the house. To me, it gave off a real vibe of that. She was more of a caretaker. Yeah, nanny slash maid. Then she was a love interest or a girlfriend. And maybe it was all of that wrapped up into one. But I don't think there's any doubt she was expected to do certain things around the house to the point where her family felt like they had to jump in and help her clean because there was no way for her to keep up. I mean, it's hard to clean a normal size house. When you have kids, they're making messes all day long. Not cleaning up after themselves. Now you got a house at six over 6000 square feet and you've got to keep that clean. Yeah, I don't know how you keep that 10000 square foot mansion you live in clean. I know you have a whole team of people who bring in the whole Macomb team and there's a little robot carpet cleaners. Nobody wants to hear about your topless maid service. How many times have I told you this? I'd love to have a 10000 square foot mansion for a day, just for a day. But somebody is out there thinking, does GIPHY really have a ten thousand square foot mansion? That would be a big no. 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Quote it progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust progressive, progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. When Mary questioned her about the relationship, Rebecca broke down and described her difficulties with the kids. Rebecca told her sister that if the children's behavior did not improve by the end of the summer, she was going to tell Jonah that she needed some time to herself. Mary did not know if they ever had that conversation. So to me, Gibbs, this is a woman in Rebecca's ahow who is nearing the end of her patients. You know, when you start to say things like that to family members, if this doesn't happen by a certain time, I'm going to have to make a change. Yeah, because it's too much. Yeah, she wasn't happy with the way things were going in July 2011. The Shacknai and Zazzau family's lives were disrupted by two back to back tragedy on July 11, 2011. Six year old Max fell down a staircase inside the Speckles mansion and suffered severe injuries. He was home with Rebecca and a 13 year old unnamed girl, so she was never named in any of the reports, but she was not related to the schachner. Her CBC's Rebecca said that Max was playing in the hallway while she was in the bathroom. She heard a loud crash and found Max on the floor. There were soccer balls nearby and a scooter was found on top of Max's leg. He wasn't breathing and didn't have a pulse when paramedics found Rebecca attempted to give him CPR. So this was a nasty fall, a nasty spill that he took. This wasn't a just get up and rub some dirt on it. Type of little kids accident On July 12, Rebecca called a dog daycare company to arrange care for her dog so that she could join the hospital vigil for Mark. Rebecca spoke to her sister on the phone. Around midnight on July 12th, Mary told ABC she was normal fine, just getting ready to go to bed. But on July 13, 2011, Rebecca was found hanging from the second story balcony above the courtyard with a rope around her neck. The person who found her was Jonah's brother, Adam. He and Rebecca were the only two people in the house that night. Rebecca slept in the main house and Adam slept in the guesthouse. Adam said that he walked outside that morning and found Rebecca. He cut her down and tried CPR, then called 9-1-1 around 6:30 a.m.. Now you and I talk about a lot of people in our episodes finding a dead body. Normally it's, you know, by the side of the road in the woods somewhere, right? To me, this is a much different scene. I mean, none of them are going to be pleasant. But to find someone hanging? I mean, that's the stuff of nightmares. Oh yeah. This is dotty seeing horror flicks. There were multiple disturbing details about the death scene that stood out to investigators. Adam said that there was a clock in Rebecca's mouth, which he removed to perform CPR. She was nude in her hands and feet were bound with rope. Not just the sounds that makes me think. Bound tied up. Right. And then someone put something in her mouth to keep her from making noise. Well, the one thing for me that it doesn't scream out is suicide. Just based on those details, I don't know how many people who were planning to hang them up would put something in their mouth, take all their clothes off, and then also figure out how to bind both their hands and feet away. Go through all that. Now, someone may argue that, well, they didn't want to try to reach up and free themselves or back out of it. Not sure why you'd have to bind your feet? Yeah. So it's a strange detail, for sure. San Diego County homicide was called in to investigate. Detectives found other strange pieces of evidence inside the house, which we'll discuss later in the episode on July 14th. A department spokesperson said Rebecca's death investigation may be a homicide or suicide. Her autopsy was completed by July 15th, but investigators were still awaiting other forensic information to determine the cause of death on July 16th. Max died of his injuries at the hospital. So things just got worse for the family, and this is what we're saying, right? Two tragedies very close together. The family announced his death on July 17 with a written statement with great sadness. Dina and I convey the tragic passing of our beloved son, Max, affectionately known as Maxie. Despite heroic efforts on the part of paramedics and hospital staff, he was unable to recover from the injuries suffered early last week. His loving, kind and vibrant spirit will be forever in our hearts and those whom he touched every day. And we talked about it on this week's episode of True Crime all the time. But, you know, so tough to bury a child and it just breaks your heart. On July 18th, San Diego County sheriff's investigators said they were interviewing witnesses and awaiting forensic evidence they believed would be important in the investigation. On July 19, domestic reports filed during the marriage of Jonah and Dena were made public. They both filed separate reports claiming the other person caused injury. On September 13, 2008, Jonah reported that Dean attempted to choke him and his attacked, trained German Shepherd gap between them. He blamed her behavior on prescription medications and alcohol. Dina reported the dog attack the same night. The following day, she told the police that Jonah's dog had injured her before, and Jonah makes little to no effort to stop the dog. OK, so marriage might have been a little rocky. We know it ended. Sure did. But I think, you know, when you have both parties filing complaints against each other. OK, maybe things aren't going great. I think that's an understatement. Deena said the incident stemmed from a disagreement about Max. Jonah allegedly cursed her in front of their son. According to NBC San Diego, he physically intimidated her by coming very close to her nose to nose, insulting and threatening her in a menacing tone. She tried to keep an arm's distance from Jonah, which resulted in her hand moving from his chest to his through. Dina wrote Although Jonah feels entitled to name, call, push, etc. when I attempt to set boundaries via my personal space. He then assumed the role of Victor. There was a second incident on January 4th, 2009. By this point, the couple was estranged. Alleged that Jonah elbowed her in the chest after he refused to read a bedtime story to Mack. Jonah wrote a letter to the Paradise Valley Police chief on Jan. 26, alleging that Dina previously filed false and misleading reports about bruises from the dog. The letter also said importantly, Dina has been treated medically for years for a bruising disorder whereby the slightest contact with an object or other material causes bruises. This information can certainly be verified medically, he claimed. Dina Head assaulted him several times and once broke his finger, according to his version of the story. On January four, 2009, she threw herself at his car when he was attempting to drive away from her home it. This point, Dina also began attempting to slam me again, screaming, You cannot leave me. I was able to gently nudge her from the car and withdraw from the premises without further incident. Now, no charges were filed in either incident, but you would have to say, Gibbs, some of this stuff is a little concerning. Yeah, they definitely had some heated moments, which the now, let's face it, all couples have their spats, but I can honestly say my wife has never run out and threw herself on the car while I was trying to back it out of the driveway. No, it's only you that falls down on the floor and puts your hands and legs up in the air, moves them around and goes, Wow, when it's you, right? Maybe. Yeah. Allegedly. So this information came out, and after it did, Jonah and Dina released a joint statement. While our marriage did not work out as either of us had hoped, it did produce a wonderful son, Max, whom both of us loved very much. His loss is unimaginable. These police reports are not reflective of the totality or the precise details of the events during a difficult time in our marriage that we worked through together. The release of the records as we grieve Max's recent loss, pains us greatly, and we request that the privacy of our family be respected. The unfortunate attention to these records is a distraction from the most important concern of honoring our beautiful son who lives on in both of our hearts. So I get it. They don't really want all of this stuff dredged up and who would, especially in the wake of this tragedy? And I do think you have to be careful. You know, you look at a couple of incidents in a marriage that lasted, however many years. Okay, these could be very isolated. Do they look great? No, obviously they don't. But could people be making more out of them than what they really were? Well, when the focus is on all the bad stuff, that's what you're going to believe. That's all you have in front of you. Well, you can paint a darker picture of something than than what it really was. But we don't know. We weren't there. Rebecca was buried on July 23rd that day. Detectives said they plan to recreate her death to determine whether it was a homicide or suicide on September 2nd, 2011. Rebecca's death was officially declared a suicide and the criminal investigation was closed. On the morning of her death, Rebecca retrieved a voicemail at 12:30 a.m. that Max's condition had worsened and he was unlikely to survive. Investigators said the voicemail might have caused Rebecca to choose to end her life. She listened to the voicemail about two hours before her estimated time of death. So they're making an official declaration, and with that comes the closing of any type of criminal investigation. But what are they basing it on? Well, there's this voicemail. I don't think that's conclusive proof. But what proof would there be? Yeah, I'm sure she was saddened and upset about the news, but doesn't mean that it will cause her to end her life. No, it definitely doesn't mean that, for sure. I'm still struggling with the bound hands and feet. I am really struggling with that. To me, that does not fit with the notion of suicide. Yeah, I mean, I get if she can do that, but why would you do that? There's no need for. Jonah released the statement after the September 2nd press conference, saying Rebecca, too, was a wonderful and unique person who will always have a special place in my heart. So the official police theory that came out was that Rebecca tied rope around her hands, feet and neck before rolling off the balcony. The medical examiner's report was also released on September 2nd, and the public learned more about what was found in the house, according to medical examiner investigator Dana Geary. A message was painted on a door inside the home. Per CBS, Gary wrote, I noted black painted writings on the bedroom door that led into the room with the balcony. The writing she saved him. Can you save her in black pain was on the hallway side of the bedroom door? Oh OK. Give me a little bit of. A creepy horror film vibe, yeah. Try to decipher that. Well, let's assume for a minute that she and her are referring to Rebecca. Yeah. So Rebecca saved him. Not sure who that would be. No. Can you save her? The one thing that I would say is it doesn't really sound like the writing of someone who is about ready to throw themselves off a balcony and hang themselves. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me. Pathologist Cyril Wecht reviewed the autopsy report and spoke about his findings with local news outlet KFMB. Be Whacked is the former president of the American Academy of Forensic Science. He consulted on high profile death investigations, including the assassination of JFK and the JonBenet Ramsey case. Wecht noted four unexplained hemorrhages on the under surface of Rebecca's scalp and contusions on the top of her head. He believes that if Rebecca's body hit branches as she fell, the impact would not have been great enough to cause the hemorrhaging. Wax said there was not enough evidence to declare the death a homicide, but he thought the cause of death should have been listed as undetermined. Well, he's not the person that made the official declaration of the cause of death, but I kind of like where he's going with this. Yeah, I think you and I have said before, you know why rush to something either homicide or suicide? If you're not completely sure you know, what is the harm in leaving something in, let's say, an undetermined status while you know you investigate a little bit more or let things play out and see where it go? Yeah, I understand not having enough evidence to rule something a homicide. But do you have enough to rule it a suicide? And I think, you know, just based on what we've talked about so far, to me, that's tough. That is a tough determination to make with the known facts. This episode is sponsored by ADT. 80 knows a lot can happen in a second. 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Visit Coming Teradata Whack to explain that the head injuries would have occurred while Rebecca was still alive or in the minutes immediately after her death, it was impossible to determine whether the head trauma would have caused her to lose consciousness. He also questioned why sticky tape residue was found on Rebecca's leg since investigators said she used Drew to bind her feet. Blood was also found on her leg. So I mean, I think he's bringing up some things here and obviously he's very well respected. Morphin, I had him on an episode of criminology. Yeah, he's well respected in his field, but he's bringing up some things that, you know, at the very least should make, you know, investigators Paul or want to look into things maybe a little deeper. Yeah, ask some questions. CBS eight also obtained the autopsy documents and reported on the following note from deputy medical examiner Jonathan Lucas Shehadeh reddish orange rope ligature around her neck and a blue piece of fabric, possibly shirt around the neck outside of the ligature. A portion of this shirt was reportedly originally in the decedents mouth. Lucas also wrote the relatively well-preserved bear footprints on the balcony and the lack. Of signs of a struggle or other footprints on the balcony indicated that she went over the balcony on her own, and I do think this was maybe a big part of the suicide determination. They have her footprint, but they're not seeing other footprints. They're not seeing a sign of a struggle that would indicate somebody was on that balcony and pushed her off. OK, we're going to analyze all this stuff as we talk about the different theories ranging from suicide to homicide. But you would have to say that's a tough one to figure out if you're, you know, going to jump into the camp of homicide, that's got to be explained. Yet to be able to answer some questions are now a sign of a struggle. I and I can understand how that could happen. You know, she took some blows to the head. Maybe there was no need for a struggle because she was kind of out of it. But how does somebody carry her to the balcony and throw her over if there's no footprint? Did they get rid of them? I don't know. Investigators didn't mention the shirt found in Rebecca's mouth during the media briefing, but the reporter described the T-shirt in detail. There is a light blue or turquoise long sleeved t shirt also around the neck on top of outside of the room. It was fashioned by tying the two ends of the long sleeves together near the cuffs and a double knock. The sleeves are wrapped three times around the neck, with the abdominal and lower chest portion of the shirt extending from the interior aspect of the ligature. The end of this has a small amount of what appears to be dried secretion. So you're going to figure out what this shirt means as well. You're part of it was apparently found in her mouth, but the rest of it is tied around her neck, and they are making specific mention that it's on top of or outside of the rope. And what does that mean? Yeah. And if she ended her life, why go through the extra effort of wrapping a shirt around your neck three times when the rest of your body is nude? Yeah, let's not forget about that, and you really have a rope around your neck. I think we're starting to see right why this case has been so mysterious and perplexing to people. CBS eight also reported details from Max's autopsy report, according to the report, after Rebecca came out of the restroom. She found Max unresponsive on the floor beneath the banister. She heard Mack say the dog's name ocean, and he became unresponsive. A scooter was lying across his right shin. He had been told in the past not to ride his scooter in the hallway. Max regained a pulse after about 25 to 30 minutes, so there have been a lot of people. Gibbs, who have, you know, theorized that this tragic accident that Max suffered, you know, happened under Rebecca's watch. Sure. Yeah, she was heartbroken. Maybe she blamed herself and she ended her life. But this how family does not agree with the suicide declaration. They have said that while Rebecca was sad and worried about Max, she did not feel responsible for his death. She was making plans for the future at the time of her death. According to Mary, Rebecca had detailed plans to bring things to the hospital for Jonah and make him something to eat. She was also going to call her mother, according to Oxygen. The last text Rebecca ever sent. Was I have to be strong for Joan. Rebecca spoke to her sister for almost 40 minutes on the night she died. They talked about her coming to visit them soon, but Rebecca was hesitant because she wanted to be there for Jonah and Max. She did plan to go home for her father's birthday in October. Now you can't put everything on these communication, but what I will say is, you know, this text this call with her sister. On the surface, these don't sound like the communications of someone who is planning on ending their life. No, actually, it sounds the exact opposite. Well, there's a future there, right? I have to be strong for Joan. Yeah. I'm coming home for Dad's birthday in October. There are future plans being talked about. Mary told the San Diego reader that they were raised in modesty so she would not have removed all her clothing before ending her life. I thought that was a very strange part of it as well. You know, Rebecca's family has also said that she would not end her life because of her religious beliefs. So you have two things kind of going against what were thought to have been her religious beliefs. Number one, taking all your clothes off and being nude when you were raised to be, you know, extremely modest. And then the second one is ending your life, Mary said about the message written on the door. I have no clue what that's about. I just know that's not my sister and my sisters very artistic. And if she has a message for the world, it wouldn't be those two lines. And it wasn't my sister's handwriting, either. They're trying to say that my sister was suicidal because she heard this news that Max was dying or brain dead. Obviously, she didn't save him, but I don't know what that message mean. Definitely was a bizarre message. Oh, absolutely. And I think it's been dissected by many people online. Mary also questioned the timing. Rebecca, listen to the voicemail about Mack shortly before one a.m., and her estimated time of death was a couple of hours later. Mary said so supposedly in two hours, she was able to work out what to do and how to do it and find the equipment and make it look like a murder. They essentially said it may look like a homicide, but it's not. We came to the conclusion that it's a suicide. And even that, to me, is bizarre. If you're going to take your life. Why would you go through the whole process of trying to make it look like you didn't take your life, that somebody else did this to you? Yeah, I don't know you scrawl something on the door that's so cryptic. Nobody can figure it out. Rebecca's family hired attorney Anne Bremner, to represent them. Bremner planned to formally request that the case be open, Bremner told ABC after the ruling. The single most important thing is there has never been a reported suicide of a female like this bound hands and feet gagged a noose around her neck, naked blood down her legs, a shirt wrapped three times around her neck, tied to a bed with neat slip knots and square knot. All right, so we've talked about all of this, except for her being tied to the bat. But what I really want to focus on is what is being described as neat Slipknot's and square knot. Now, I'll be honest with you, Gibbs, I was not ever in the Boy Scout Cub Scouts, anything like that. I am not good with knots, and I don't know that many people who are I can tie a knot, can you? But I don't know what it's called, and I'm sure it's not something that a sailor would use. You don't tie your shoes, you just slip them on all the time. Well, that's just isn't lazy. It doesn't mean I can't do it. Oh, okay. But you know what I'm getting at? Like how many people really know how to tie some of these intricate types of knot? I know how to do all 41 of the nights out there. There's only 41 knots and, you know, am all the important knots. I know. I don't know how to do it. I can guarantee you my wife and kids don't know how to tie any of these knots. I guess the question is, did Rebecca Zahav know how to tie some of these knot? I mean, she could have known how to do it, but is it likely? Yeah, I don't know how likely it is. I really don't. In late September, the family attorney released over 200 pages of phone records to News eight. Rebecca had a lot of phone activity in the 24 hours before her death, including texts and calls to Jonah, her sister, Adam Shacknai and Jonah's friend, Dr. Howard Luber. Jonah's former sister in law, Nina Romano sent the final text to Rebecca's phone at 10:41 p.m. on July 12. Rebecca picked her up at the airport to take her to the hospital. Nina said she sent Rebecca text asking to stop by the mansion, but she never responded. According to freelance journalist Sean Elder, there was speculation that there was a bondage element to Rebecca's death in an article for Town and Country magazine. Elder wrote that someone viewed bondage pornography from inside the home on the night of Rebecca's death, when the police searched the computers in the home they found. Google searches for keywords such as sexy, Asian and rape. OK, sounds like a twist. One of the images that was viewed was of a bound Asian woman, according to the family attorney, Anne Bremner. Bremner said she does not believe Rebecca was interested in bondage or pornography. She told CBS eight in 2011 there was somebody interested in doing her harm with these kinds of searches. So, I mean, no doubt you can see what she is getting at right. There's someone in the home searching for these types of images or videos, whatever they might be. Did this person have a fantasy that included Rebecca? And did they that night act on that fantasy? Then you have to say who was in the house, who was there, who had access and who could have been searching for these keywords in May 2013. There's a whole family filed a lawsuit demanding that the case be reopened in July of that year. The family filed a 10 million dollar wrongful death suit against Max's mother, Dina Romano. Dina's twin sister, Nina and Jonah's brother, Adam Shacknai. The romanos were released from the lawsuit in 2017 after hospital footage confirmed DNA was at the hospital. Rebecca's family believes Adam sexually assaulted Rebecca and murdered her. A claim he has always denied. Rebecca's family hired attorney, Keith Greer, to re-evaluate her official cause of death. A second autopsy was conducted. The civil trial against Adam started on Facebook. Where 26, 2018. Keith Greer told the court that Adam hit Rabach on the head, sexually assaulted and strangled her, then staged it to look like a suicide. According to Greer, she was lowered from the balcony instead of dropping nine feet herself. Greer mentioned the four blows to Rebecca's head, which left her partially or fully unconscious. There were two knives found in a second storey bedroom of the house. Rebecca's menstrual blood was found on all four sides of the handle of a steak knife, according to Greer, suggesting it was used in a sexual assault. Wow. The sheriff's department said no prints were found on the steak knife. The second knife found in the bedroom was larger. Rebecca's fingerprints were found on the blade. There was a mixture of at least two people's DNA on the knife, but there was an insufficient amount for conclusions or comparison. Greer also pointed out that black paint, like the paint used to write the message, was found on Rebecca's right hand left breast right nipple right up her chest, right up her index finger and neck. Her thumbprint was found on the cap of the tube of paint. Not sure what to make of that? Greer argued that Adam painted the message on the door and then applied paint to Rebecca. He said that the paint on her nipples suggested someone pinch them. If Rebecca had touched her body with the pain, it would have been on her fingertips, but no paint was found there, according to oxygen. I mean, it's just one detail after another, Gibbs that kind of leaves you scratching your head, right? You know, it's, you know, paint on her body. OK, who put it there? How could she put it there if the pain's not on her hand? Yeah, it's kind of difficult how she writing the message. Greer told the court that paint was found on the roof, but not on the gap, suggesting it was already in place. He also noted that blood on Rebecca's inner thigh might have been a transfer mark from a possible sexual assault. It appeared to be the same size and shape of the smaller knife hand. However, two autopsies found no evidence of sexual assault. Investigators have said the blood could have gotten onto the knife in other ways. OK, well, you're going to have to explain to me what those ways are, means she could have bled at a time in the past and it got on there. I don't know what they're getting. Get ready for big games. William Hill prepare for last minute winners. Legendary goalies and oh, straight red cards. Josie Tankan boost your winnings on every Premier League game with new Bet Builder Extra online or India. Only from William available day before match to kick off at builders with three plus selections at three, two, one or more. Pre-match Singles Match Day 20. You're as follows this he's playing 18+. Play responsibly. Visit Coming Canada to handwriting. Experts found it difficult to determine who wrote the message on the door because it was painted in block letter. Greer also argued that certain services were white to eliminate DNA. Adams DNA was not found on the knife. He told the police he used to cut Rebecca down. Adams said he gave Rebecca CPR, but his DNA was not found on her body. So those are two very strange things. They are. I mean, I understand that Rebecca's family is angry. They don't believe that she took her own life. We said it up front, right? It was only her and Adam at the house are thought to be her and Adam at the house when this all went down. So, you know, they are pointing the finger at Adam, and you'd have to admit there are some things here that don't look great. I don't know how you give someone CPR and not leave your DNA on them somehow. Yeah, that's a ball going in my mind. Sheriff's department investigators previously said that Rebecca tied herself and rolled off the balcony. They even filmed the demonstration video showing how it could have been done. However, it's been pointed out that the notch used to bind her hands behind her back. We're fairly complex. Forensic not analyst Lindsay Philpott testified at the civil trial that the overhand and clove hitch knots are commonly used for nautical purposes. Greer pointed out that Adam is a. Tugboat Captain Sea dreaming it is, and you know, these knots are kind of fascinating to me, I just talked about them. Yeah, the Aklavik is a real tough one to do there. Some of these knots are there great knots, right? They hold or they release easily, but they're also very strong. But you got to know how to tie them. You're not just going to luck into it. It was also noted that Rebecca's neck was not as damaged as would be expected from the drop, but her hyoid bone and larynx were fractured. Well, we know from doing as many cases as we have done that the hyoid bone can be fractured during strangulation. Yeah. Pathologist Cyril Wecht was an expert witness at the civil trial. He believed Rebecca was strangled and was dead or dying before she was lowered off the deck. Family attorney Keith Greer told Oxygen. And when I say lowered off the deck, it is because had she gone over the deck on her own, then gravity would have carried her down full force. It's a nine foot drop. It would have either ripped her head off or partially decapitated her. And I'm assuming Gibbs there is a reason that, you know, back in the day when Gallows were used, they were built with a certain drop. Yeah, it was enough to ensure hopefully that the person died or snap their neck or whatever. But it wasn't so long that it would pull the head off completely. Yeah, when or how they figured that out, though, over years of trial and error. But knowing that knowing hearing this again makes you wonder what really did happen. Well, and I think again, it's why there has been and remains so much interest in this case. You'll hear one piece of information that makes you think, Well, OK, maybe it was possible that she ended her life. And then you've got two pieces of information that make it seem so unlikely that it was even possible she could have done it. And you just go back and forth. You also have, you know, different expert opinions. It sounds like no one can conclusively analyze the handwriting on the door because it's printed block letters. Just again, it makes me wonder why they just didn't go with undetermined. Yeah, even more so right as we go through more of that. Yes. And maybe it's because they they did it so quickly. There was not a single dislocated vertebrae in her neck, which, according to Greer, did not support the conclusion of hanging. The defense called on Denise Wuyi, a former lead forensic technician for the San Diego Sheriff's Department Crime Lab. When asked if she recalled specific injuries to Rebecca's body. She said there was an injury on her finger. She believed the blood on the bottom rivets of the night came from the hand injury because it was still oozing blood when she took a photo. Keith Greer disagreed and described the wound as a rope burn. Adam got on the stand and told the court he had a happy and stable childhood. He had a good relationship with Jonah, even though they lived on different sides of the country as adults. Adam said he had worked as a tugboat pilot on the Mississippi since 1997. He spent 28 days on duty and 28 days off. He denied knowing complicated knots because they weren't necessary for his job. Now, I guess if you were strictly a pilot or captain, maybe you didn't tie a lot of knots, but most people don't start out as that. Do they know you work your way up the ranks? That's what I was thinking. Adam also told the jury that he'd been with the same woman for over 20 years, but they live separately and never wanted to get married. He said he was in Memphis when he got the call about Max. According to Keith Greer, Adam's parents suggested he come to California to support Jonah. Adam then called Rebecca and asked if he should come. She told him, Whatever you think is best. Adam flew in to San Diego on July 12th. Rebecca picked him up. They had dinner with Jonah before heading to the mansion, leaving Jonah at the hospital. Adam said he went straight to the guesthouse, made some calls and went to. Bad around, not he didn't leave until the morning when he left to walk to a coffee shop. That was when he found Rebecca on April 4th, 2018. A civil jury found Adam responsible for Rebecca's death. The vote was nine to three. Wow, that's big. Yeah. And we talked about the differences between, you know, criminal trials and civil trials. But there were nine people on this jury who felt that Adam was responsible. And there were three who didn't. Jurors were asked to answer two questions. Did Adam touch Rebecca Zahau before her death with the intent to harm her? And did that touching caused the death of Rebecca? Zahav actually thought those were two kind of strange questions, and maybe it was the way they were worded, but they might have been worded that way intentionally. You know, I'm sure there was a very specific reason why they were worded the way they they were. A judge awarded the jury's recommendation of $5 million for the loss of love and companionship and one hundred and sixty seven thousand dollars for the loss of financial support for Rebecca's mother and siblings, according to NBC San Diego. Adam said outside court. This ain't nothing. He added, I'm disappointed, but I have plenty of fight in me. I'm standing tall. I'm not afraid of these posers. Seems like some strange comments. That's what I was thinking. I mean, this ain't nothing but something. It's over five million dollars that they're wanting you to pay. It's also the fact that nine people listen to a bunch of evidence and feel as though you were responsible for the death of this person. Now I get it. You're going to fight it. I understand that. Well, reputational too, right? Yeah, you're going to take a hit. Absolutely. The sheriff's department reassessed the case in 2018 after the civil jury verdict. They held a news conference announcing their findings in December of that year. The sheriff's department said they would not change their initial finding of suicide, according to oxygen. Dr. Glenn Wagner said about the results of a case review, the evidence based upon the abrasions contusions throughout the body to me indicates that Rebecca went face first over the railing and impacted slid down the wall, breaking the foliage, as well as leaving marks on the wall before the full length of that rope was reached and did, in fact, hang herself. Lieutenant Rich Williams said there was no evidence of sexual assault found in the autopsy, so they're not changing their stance. They're not seeing it any differently than they saw before. No, but you have experts on both sides saying different things, as we often see. Investigators found notes on Rebecca's phone that indicated she was unhappy with her life at the time of her death. These messages were presented in a PowerPoint by the sheriff's department per oxygen, Rebecca wrote. If I'm not thinking, I'm crying and no amount of money is worth what I am going through. And another note, she wrote, Am I just too much of a coward to face the truth? Then I'm settling for the hope of a few happy years, which may never even come. Am I pretending that I will be content without ever having a child? Another note said It is my own fault. I have allowed myself to be completely cut off from my own life. My life does not exist. Rebecca also wrote Being talked to like I'm a worthless person by kids who are spoiled. But these are things that her sister knew. Mm hmm. Because Rebecca was making the decision that if things weren't going to change, she was going to go ahead and exit the relationship. Yeah, I mean, these are no doubt tough times for her, right? These are some things that she, you know, was going through she wasn't happy about. But I don't read any of this. And, you know, right away, think that she's planning on ending her life. None of this screams out that now someone might argue, feeling this way and then getting the news about Max. Right? All of that combined could have pushed her over the edge, and I'm sure a lot of people do argue that, yeah. On February six, 2019, Keith Greer announced that the case was dismissed after the. Emily reached a settlement with Adam's insurance company for $600000. This decision vacated the jury's verdict. Adam appeared to be angry and told reporters, as quoted by Fox five. I guess my insurance company did an end around this whole process. They believed in my innocence, but they were tired of throwing money at it. They settled for a pittance. Extortion is alive and well. Well, you know what? If you didn't do it? I get his anger. Look, why are we selling these people? I didn't do anything. We should be fighting it. But you and I have gone round and round right insurance companies. Big companies at a certain point make the decision sometimes that they're paying so much in legal fees that financially it's much more beneficial to just settle. I mean, for Adam, at least they vacated the decision. And what it meant for Adam was that he was not legally liable for Rebecca's death and will not have to pay the Zazzau family. Adam told KGTV after the agreement. I'm glad it's over, but it's not the way I wanted it to end. I wanted to go through the process for an appeal. And my first thought here about this statement, Gibbs, is that, you know, if you're Adam and you had something to do with the death of Rebecca's, how wouldn't you be super happy that this thing has gone away? We're over. We're done with it. I think one could make the argument that, you know, the fact that he wanted to fight it does leave a little bit in his favor. Now that could just be posturing that could just be saying things to make people think the way I just said, You know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah, yeah. But I don't know. I mean, as we know, there's people on both sides of the fence on this one and probably always will unless something comes up definitive. Yes, something super definitive is going to have to surface to shift everyone in a certain direction. And even with that, you won't. There still be some people that that hold out on one side. In August 2019, Rebecca's family offered a $100000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of Adam Shacknai in July 2022. The family dropped their suit against former San Diego Sheriff Bill Gore. The suit was filed to gain access to investigative records. Gore retired in February of that year. Then, in October 2020, to the family announced their intentions to petition the San Diego County Medical Examiner's Office to reclassify the cause of death. Yeah, it's been over a decade since Rebecca Zazzau died, but people around the world are still intrigued and disturbed by her case. While the ruling about her cause of death is disputed by the zoo house and some experts, what is not disputed is that, you know, two families suffered great losses within days of each other. This was a high profile case from the beginning, which led to a lot of speculation, and that speculation continues today. If you went on a form right now, you could see somebody arguing about this case. Yeah. I think what hurts this case is that it's not deemed as undetermined. Yeah, we talked about that early on. I mean, it does sound as though a lot of people that worked the investigation believe in their hearts, that this was a suicide. But man, there are some strange facets to it that, you know, make that tough to believe. For a lot of people, myself included, I mean, you know, there are just some things that don't seem to add up in my mind. There are some things that appear to be staged to me. Now does that mean that that couldn't have been part of it? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that Adam did it? No, it doesn't mean that, either. All I know is there's some strange things going on with the death of Rebecca's Zazzau, and I don't know how someone can conclusively say this was absolutely 100 percent a suicide or this was 100 percent a homicide. And maybe that's where there's just a lot of gray area and maybe the undertone. Thurmond is a little bit better of a classification, yeah. I wonder if investigators have a problem with that, because how can it not be one or the other? This wasn't an accident, right? I don't see how that's an option. No. So it has to be either a suicide or a homicide. And it does seem to me as though in some of these cases where you have evidence pointing both ways, a lot of times they tend to lean towards suicide because you don't have to prosecute a suicide, you don't have to take that to court. Right? A homicide. You got to figure out who did it and you have to charge someone and you have to take them to court. I don't know if that's the reason I'm not saying it is. But does it factor in? Maybe. I do know that this is a case that a lot of people would love to know the truth on. I don't know if that will ever come out. I don't know if it's possible. But people are going to continue to have their opinion. Oh yeah, that's for sure. That's it for our episode on the death of Rebecca Sahal, we got some voicemails. Gibbs, you want. Check those out. Let's hear them. Look, guys. I just got off the bike. Yeah. But I wanted to call the notes of the goofy groupies if the mother were to throw. Okay? But yeah, I no. The first part was a little hard to understand, but I think he said Gibbs Craig is awesome. I hate to give you all the way, but maybe we should give Fergie some love too. Yeah, I just, you know, found somebody that said, Give Fergie some love, so I want to play that. Yeah. Well, it's 1:45 a.m. And I'm in the drive thru at McDonald's trying to get a coke. So I just thought of something really funny. The other day, I was listening to a podcast by you guys, of course. And Debbie said, Don't you ever tinkle? Or did you ever tinkle? I'm pretty sure it's pink or might help me move it out babyface with the tail to make up over ankles. I'm sorry it's not supposed to go all the way down. Sorry about that. I had exact time to thank you. Help them. I just left it running. So now you can see how stupid I am at almost two in the morning. Now that's really funny. You're probably not a good listener anymore, but that's very funny. I'm about to go down the road. You want a burger and get me a cinnamon roll. Yes, I'm getting cinnamon roll. And oh, it's almost two o'clock in the morning. And no, I am not. High water comes just like that. Anyway, I'm pretty sure giving it just a thinker. It cracked me up so much. Now the guy in the next car is looking at me like, I'm an idiot. OK, so maybe that's funny, but I do love a McDonald's Coke Zero where she was at. I missed that first part. That's a that's McDonald's has the best coke. Yeah, they do something different than everybody else. They invest heavily in their filtration system. Yeah. Don't ask me how I know all this. Yeah, but there's syrup in their filtration system as what? Yeah, makes it top notch. Now, I've never been to Whataburger, but I've always wanted to try it. I thought we did have Whataburger at the airport one time. Oh, we did. That was in Texas, wasn't it? Yes. Yeah, it was good sauce in and out is what I'm thinking. Yeah, that's the one I've never had. Yeah. What a burger I did. Like that was pretty good. You just didn't have their cinnamon roll. No, I didn't know they had some. No, you too interested in getting that burger, but I don't know why that one just cracked me up because it's like she's talking to us. She's talking to the the person taking her order change was dropping. At some point. I wasn't sure what was us and what was for the the person helping her out there. Now we know the true her. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gaby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Well, I know you want to tinker around, but let me go tinkle. If it doesn't trickle and then come back and we can tinker dick trickle in that race car driver David Dick Turnbull, I saw that was such a strange name. It really was Dick Terkel. Yeah, I think I'd change. I just have my name legally changed. Hurry, hurry up and go, because I'm going to start trickling here in a minute. OK. All right, buddy. Did you shut that down? Oh no, s**t, I don't. All right, I'll turn it off. I'll turn it off. Got some summer movie plans? Pluto TV's Summer of Cinema has hundreds of free movies to stream all summer long. No matter where you are or what you have planned. TurboCharge your summer viewing with Sonic the Hedgehog or rock out whale watching Rocket Man. Stay classy with Anchorman The Legend of Ron Burgundy or go behind enemy lines streaming Saving Private Ryan for all your summer plans or for no plans at all. Download the Pluto TV app to stream free movies anytime. Summer of Cinema on Pluto TV. Stream Now they never get ready for big games. 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