35: Sixteen and Pregnant's Lindsey Nicholson, NICU Babies, Adoption and Kail's Stomach Bug!

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Go to shopify.com/truecrime to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com/truecrime. Hi, everyone. This is Jillian with Court Junkie. Court Junkie is a true crime podcast that covers court cases and criminal trials using audio clips and interviews with people close to the cases. Court Junkie is available on Apple Podcasts and podcast1.com. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode four zero two of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey. I'm doing good. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm excited to record this final episode on the zodiac. Me too. And we have a special guest Me too. That's going to to join us on the show, so that'll be great. But let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Rachel Deacon. Hey, Deacon. Ebony Ott. What's going on, Ott? Mary Elaine Henderson. Well, thanks, Mary Elaine. Angie. What's going on, Angie? Lisa Marquez. Hey, Marquez. Linda Styles. Hey, Linda. Justina Jarbo. Well, thanks, JJ. Renee Nikkanen. What's going on, Renee? Cedric Garin. Oh, Cedric. Thanks. And last but not least, Andrea Brennan. Appreciate that, Andrea. Yeah. Appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Claire Saro Melvin. Saro Melon. So did you say melon? So we appreciate the long term support as well. Alright. So we have an episode right now out on true crime all the time, and it's about Scott Watson and the disappearance of Ben Smart and Olivia Hope. You know, we head to New Zealand, And this is one of their most high profile and controversial true crime cases, and there's a reason why. This is, kind of a departure from a lot of the TCAT cases that we do. It is. A lot of people are questioning whether this is the guy or not. It's a really good case. You gotta listen to it. Yeah. Absolutely. Make sure you check it out. Alright, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time Unsolved? I am. In part one, we talked about a timeline of known and suspected attacks. We talked about the first letters and ciphers. In part two, we focused on the final confirmed Zodiac murder, more correspondence, and additional suspected zodiac cases in part three. We're gonna dive in and cover some of the top zodiac suspects, including the only man publicly named by authorities in connection with the case as well as the efforts of those who solved the Zodiac's ciphers. Yeah. And then pull in our special guest. Yeah. Absolutely. So over 2,500 suspects have been considered in the Zodiac case. And you think about that number, and it's a lot, no doubt about it, but as big as this case is and as old as it is and as many people who are heavily invested in it, that number seems right. I could see it being even more. If it was higher, it wouldn't surprise me. I remember the one detective said he had 4,000 people of interest at one point. Sure. Yeah. But there have been all kinds of theories. Right? One theory is that it was Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. He was the zodiac. Charles Manson, people have said, you know, was the zodiac. According to the History Channel, one of the more logical potential suspects was a man named Lawrence Kane. Kane worked in the same Lake Tahoe Hotel as Donalass, the suspected Zodiac victim who disappeared in 1970. Kane also served in the naval reserves and may have learned coding during his time in the military. Additionally, a 1962 car accident left Kane with a brain injury that could have compromised his impulse control. He had a history of troubling behavior. He was arrested for peeping in 1961 and for prowling in 1968. The two peepies. The two peepies, peeping and prowling. Yeah. A retired detective who looked into the case in the eighties claimed Kane's name was embedded in one of the zodiac ciphers. The detective also said that victim Darlene Ferrin's sister viewed a photo of Kane and identified him as the man who harassed Darlene at her waitressing job. One San Francisco officer who responded to the Paul Stine murder who witnessed the suspect walking away from the crime scene viewed Kane's photo and said he looked more like the zodiac than anyone else he had seen. Sounds promising. Yeah. It is. And then finally, Kathleen Johns, who escaped after being abducted in 1970, also identified Kane as the abductor. And she would have spent significant amount of time in the car. Right? Yeah. We said about two hours Yeah. With him. But Lawrence Kane died in 02/2010. A second potential suspect was Ross Sullivan, who worked at the Riverside City College Library where Sherry Jo Bates was last seen alive. Library staff reported that Sullivan made them uncomfortable and disappeared for several days. After the murder, he had a crew cut and glasses. Similar to the Zodiac composite sketch, he wore an army jacket and military boots, often referred to as wing walker boots, like those that formed the footprints at the Lake Berryessa crime scene. Some of the zodiac letters reference the Mikado, a nineteenth century comic opera by Gilbert and Sullivan. Some view this as a reference to Sullivan's name. And we didn't spend a lot of time talking about the letters that reference the Mikado, but they're creepy, and they go in pretty in-depth. Yeah. Sullivan moved to Northern California in 1967 and was hospitalized several times for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. And I remember when Morp and I, you know, did season one of criminology. Right? The whole season was dedicated to the zodiac. Morpheus, what I would consider a zodiac expert. This Ross Sullivan guy, I think at the time, was his number one suspect. He liked him the most. Now that's been, like, six, seven years ago, and and some things have changed. In 02/2014, Gary Stewart published The Most Dangerous of All. In his book, he claims his biological father, Earl Van Bess junior, was the Zodiac killer. Bess died in 1984. And let's face it, there have been a lot of people that have come out and said, you know, my father was the Zodiac, my grandfather, my brother, whoever, my uncle. You have that in a lot of famous unsolved cases. Yeah. You do. I mean, look at DB Cooper. How many people have said that somebody in their family was DB Cooper? When in fact, it was me. And I did it. And everybody everybody knows it. Yeah. You were two, and you jumped out of that airplane. That's right. Surprised they didn't say that DB Cooper was the zodiac. I'm sure somebody has said that. Hope we have. I'm sure somebody has. Gary Stewart was born in New Orleans. He was abandoned as a newborn and adopted. His biological mother, Judy, contacted him for the first time. When he was 39 years old, Stewart also searched for his biological father. He had his father's name, but Earl Van Best never contacted his son. At one point during Stewart's search, he was watching TV and saw a 1969 wanted poster from the San Francisco Police Department. Stewart was shocked when he realized he looked similar to the Zodiac composite sketch. His son even pointed out the resemblance. Stewart went into his office and pulled out an old mugshot of his father, who also resembled the sketch. Earl Van Best did live in California. At the time of the murders, he was interested in ciphers, and he knew a Satanist and Manson family member who liked words by Gilbert and Sullivan such as the Mikado. Where's that Mikado? Best served time in prison for the statutory rape of Gary Stewart's mother and may have held a grudge against San Francisco Chronicle reporter Paul Avery who wrote a series of articles about the couple. And here's the thing about a lot of these suspects. You know, are there colonels that make you think, okay. This person could look good. Absolutely. Yeah. Could that person look good for that one particular crime only? Yes. When you might have the zodiac, but you have a lot of similar murders that resemble that. And so it makes you think, well, they had to beat the zodiac. Gary Stewart claimed he found his father's initials in the zodiac ciphers. A document examiner said the handwriting on Beth's marriage certificate matched the zodiac's. But Beth's fingerprints didn't match the ones found on Paul Stine's cat, but a mark that could have been a scar was found on both sets of prints. So going back to the cipher, finding the initials Mhmm. If you wanna believe those are the initials, would you find those initials in a cipher? Well, you know what your father's initials are. Yeah. So you're saying, could you find them? Possibly. Yeah. But could they just be three random letters that just happened to be in that succession? Yeah. Could be. Best has been ruled out by experts who questioned Stewart's methods for solving the cipher. Best fingerprint mark was similar to the zodiac print only if it was reversed. Finally, the handwriting on the marriage certificate was actually the ministers, and it wasn't best at all. So you're gonna have this with a lot of the suspects. Right? There are gonna be some things that people say and maybe even some things that are facts that that make you think. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a look at that. But then somebody is going to look into this person, and they're gonna find some things that virtually either make it impossible for them to have been the zodiac or at the very least disprove all the things that kind of made them look like they could be Yeah. The zodiac. Right. Another man came forward in 02/2014 claiming his friend was the zodiac. Randy Kenny reported that his friend, Louie Myers, confessed to being the Zodiac killer in April 2001. Doctors informed Myers he was dying of cirrhosis of the liver. According to Kenny, Myers said, I killed some people. I'm the guy they're looking for. They've been looking for me for over thirty years. I'm the guy that's the zodiac killer. Okay. So you have a deathbed confession. And you and I have talked many, many times about some unsolved cases that could potentially be solved maybe only by a deathbed Right. Confession. Because at what other point would it be in anybody's interest to confess to a crime unless you knew for a fact you were dying? Yeah. You were gonna have to pay the price for it. Myers lived in Vallejo from 1965 to 1971. He claimed he started killing when he was only 17 because a girl broke up with him, and this is why he targeted couples. More of a revenge killing. Well, you know, there has been a question. Why are the lovers' lane? Why couples? And he really hated the women. And that has led a lot of people to think that it really wasn't so much the couple's aspect as it was the focus was the female. Yeah. And maybe one of the females was actually known by the killer. That's been a theory. Kenny also said that Myers attended both Vallejo and Hogan high schools and might have known David Faraday, who attended Vallejo, and Betty Lou Jensen, who attended Hogan. Myers worked as a busboy at Terry's restaurant in Vallejo, where victim Darlene Ferrin also worked. And we talked about this military boot print, this wing walker print, as it's been called, at the Lake Berryessa crime scene. Myers' father worked on Mare Island in Vallejo and would have had this type of boot. Myers also briefly worked for Victory Military Surplus in Vallejo. So, again, a lot of connections if if true. Yeah. Some things are lining up. Right. He worked with one of the victims. He might have gone to school with two of the victims. Kenny claimed that Myers didn't know Paul Stine and was just robbing him for drug money. Myers had a criminal record in Vallejo that included disorderly conduct, theft, and possession of stolen property. He joined the army and was stationed in Germany between June 1971 and January 1973. Well, it fits that time frame perfectly, doesn't it? Yeah. At least part of it. Right? The zodiac didn't send any letters during this time period. I think it might have even gone into 1974. After leaving the army, Myers moved to New York and worked as a trucker. It was said that his route included the Bay Area. Didn't we talk about a letter at one point from New York? Oh, yeah. The Albany? Yeah. Albany area. Kenny told ABC seven that Myers tried to hint at his age in the Halloween card postmarked 10/27/1970. The Halloween card said, look for teen. Alright? And at that time, the authorities just thought it meant 14 victims. But it meant, look for a teen. You know, this as though this guy was a teenager. And I think what, you know, I struggle with as far as that, you go back to all the zodiac descriptions. None of them sounded like a a teenager to me, looked like a teenager. So that one's a little tough to think that, you know, a 17 year old was responsible for these murders because, you know, the descriptions we gave just didn't, you know, line up with that. No. Just seemed like a much older man. Who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach, like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50. They have all kinds of clothes and 14 karat gold jewelry. The best part, all Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They partner with top factories, so Quince is able to cut out the cost of the middleman and pass the savings on to us. 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Myers was obsessed with his Scottish heritage, which is why he chose that symbol. I could see maybe how that symbol could be Scottish. Or that it was pulled from a zodiac watch. That as well. Myers asked his friend to wait until after he died to tell the police he wanted Kenny to write a book and give the proceeds to the victim's family. Louie Myers died in 02/2002. Kenny claimed he spent years trying to get the police to listen. He believes his friend was telling the truth. You know, when I think about this deathbed confession in it's coming from the zodiac. I just feel like the zodiac would have said, I know there's gonna be a lot of doubt because I was so famous. Here's the proof. Yes. Here's here's my little cigar box full of stuff that will concrete this in. Right. Here's another piece of Paul Stine shirt or something I've kept behind. Yeah. The other thing that you have to keep in mind is very often, there seems to be a book, right, that coincides with somebody claiming they know who the zodiac is. Yeah. And that's gonna help sell that book. Right. It doesn't mean they don't believe it, but, you know, there might be some profiting off of it as well. Sure. Meyer's friend, Rob Robitaille, claimed Meyer's confessed to him in 1976. He didn't believe it. He said it freaked me out for a second, then I just pushed it aside. We never talked about it again. According to ABC seven, authorities are skeptical. A teenager could have pulled off the zodiac attacks, and Myers doesn't fit witness descriptions. So we talked about that part. The other part is, you know, could a teenager have pulled off these attacks, these murders? You know, possibly. I would just think the woman that was in the car for Zodiac for two hours would have said, he was a teenager. Yeah. Good point. But she did also identify another person. That's true. So but it there's a difference. Right? Telling the police right after it happened what this guy looked like, how old he was is much different than maybe years later looking at a photograph and saying, yeah. Yeah. I think that's him. Yeah. That's true. Another suspect is Richard Marshall, a ham radio operator and movie projectionist. Marshall lived in Riverside in 1966 and lived in the area of San Francisco, where Paul Stine was murdered. Marshall owned a typewriter and teletype, similar to those used by the Zodiac. Those who visited his home told the police he was peculiar and had talked about finding something much more exciting than sex. And there was something in, you know, one of zodiac's letters, right, that kind of said killing was better than sex. Not in those words, but something like that. He liked old movies including The Red Phantom, the signature included in the Zodiac's 07/08/1974 letter. So some little ties here and there. Yeah. And and we've talked about the Zodiac movie a few times, right, based on Robert Graysmith's books. Rick Marshall is where Graysmith goes. His home is where he goes at the at the end. Right. He goes down in the basement. Marshall actually did a TV interview in 1989 and denied being the killer. He was ruled out by most experts. He died in a nursing home in 02/2008. Another common name that appears on the suspect list is Richard Gajkowski, who edited a counterculture paper in San Francisco. A former coworker sent a lengthy letter to law enforcement accusing Giekowski of being the zodiac, claiming he invited him to participate in violent acts. The accuser, who went by the nickname Goldcatcher, appeared in disguise on an episode of History's Mystery Quest in 02/2009 and provided recordings of Ginkowski, a police dispatcher who spoke to the Zodiac was also interviewed for the show and said Ginkowski's voice sounded the same. But couldn't you say that about several voices? A lot of yeah. I voices to me would be tough, very tough, especially if this is a person who's talking about it, what, forty years later? Yeah. And you're hearing the voice and you're saying, yeah. That sounds like it. Goldcatcher was dismissed because he was a known conspiracy theorist with little credibility. Well, that definitely hurts. Doesn't help you No. At all. Napa County Detective Ken Narlow interviewed Gajkowski. He claimed he was out of the country at the time of the Lake Herman Road murders, but had lost his passport. Both San Francisco and Napa police denied request to compare Gajkowski's DNA to the Zodiac's, and Gajkowski died in 02/2004. So why did they not follow-up? I'm assuming it's because they did not believe he was a zodiac. Just didn't have enough to even compare his DNA. Yeah. A man named Dennis Kaufman believed his late stepfather, Jack Terrence, was the killer. He thought Terrence was remarkably similar to the composite sketch. Kaufman also claimed he had incriminating evidence against Terrence, including a roll of film depicting possible victims in a hooded costume like the one worn by the zodiac at Lake Berryessa. Okay. So stepdad is the zodiac. So he claims he has these photos, but we don't know if he really has them. And if he does have them, what do they even mean? Yeah. I don't know what it means when you say possible victims. Are these just pictures of women that are alive that he thinks could be possible victims? What's a what's a hooded costume? Something he made and then took a picture? You see, you just never know about these things. Yeah. Too vague. In a 02/2007 documentary, a document examiner said Terrence's handwriting matched the zodiacs. However, law enforcement dismissed Kaufman's evidence, and researchers challenged the document examiner's credibility, Jack Terrance died in 02/2006. And that's the other thing. Right? The handwriting is so important in the Zodiac case because there's so much of it. Sure. There is. But there are a lot of, quote, unquote, handwriting experts who have claimed over the years that this person's a match. This person's a match. A whole bunch of different people match. Well, not everybody can match. No. So somebody's not right or everybody's not right. It sounds like nobody's right. Researcher Kevin Robert Brooks found circumstantial evidence against Donald Lee Bujak who was released from a Montana prison after serving just eleven years of his life sentence for killing a sheriff's deputy. And we talked about it in episode one. But survivor Brian Hartnell said the hooded man who stabbed them escaped from a Montana prison. So there's your tie in. But how do you serve eleven years of a life sentence for killing a a sheriff's deputy? Yeah. It seems really light. I I'm shocked by that. According to Brooke, fellow inmates said Bujak talked about killing people to make them slaves in the afterlife, which the zodiac also wrote about in one of the letters. Brooks also wrote that the Halloween card sent to reporter Paul Avery depicted the harsh conditions at the prison and that the boo in the card was a reference to Bujok's name. Okay. That might be a stretch. Yeah. I think it seems to be a pull. It's b o o Bujok, and this guy's name is spelled b u j o k. Bujok was in the army but was discharged for mental health reasons. Brooks alleged that markings on some of the zodiac envelopes spelled out zodiac is a veteran with four f. And Brooks speculated that the zodiac symbol was inspired by the helicopter landing pad at Fort Ord, California, where Bujak was stationed. Okay. A lot of these seem pretty far out there for me. It seems like a stretch. Yeah. A lot of stretches. Bujak was ruled out because his prints didn't match, those believed to be the zodiacs. Also, a park ranger at Lake Berryessa claimed Hartnell said the prison was in Colorado. Bujak was released from prison just three days before the Lake Herman Road murders. Some researchers think he would have trouble traveling across three states in such a short time. Seems to be pretty quick to go three states. In three days? Yeah. Well, not today. No. If you have a car, if you're trying to hitchhike, it might be tough. You just got out of prison. You don't own a car. Maybe you steal a car. I don't know. I'm thinking you get out of prison on day one. You wanna go go find something else to do. Please do not elaborate on what you think that is. Bujak was also incarcerated during the Cheri Jo Bates murder and other suspected Zodiac cases. He died in 1993. And now we get to Arthur Leigh Allen. Right? Allen is the only suspect ever named by authorities. And in that Zodiac movie that we keep referencing, you know, Arthur Lee Allen is the main suspect in the movie, and I think the main suspect of Robert Graysmith. Allen enlisted in the navy in the early fifties, but was less than honorably discharged according to the History Channel. In the early sixties, Allen lived in Atascadero, California and taught at Santa Rosa Elementary School. His former students recalled him teaching them how to decipher codes. He also played songs such as Tom Dooley, which is about the murder of a woman. And I've got a little list from The Mikado, which has themes of death. Okay. I don't believe you should be playing songs about murder to elementary school children. Not a good thing. I know you wanna broaden the horizons, but not like that. Alan liked to bring animals to class, including a frog that he named Ford. Just switch the r and the o and get Ferg out of frog? I I guess. Or, you know, switch one letter to e, and you get my nickname, Ferg. People magazine noted that the zodiac was known for purposely misspelling common words. And that that's been a big thing with me, and I talked about it as we went through the letters. You know, to me, it did seem like the writer of the letters was a fairly intelligent person, maybe a very intelligent Right. Person who was trying to pass themselves off as unintelligent by misspelling words on purpose. But then use some words that seem strange for somebody that would not be intelligent to use. Mhmm. Words that you had never even heard of. I used more difficult words. So you don't know those, but you know more difficult ones that mean the same thing? Oh, for sure. Okay. Yeah. I gotcha. You know, after we started the podcast and we started selling merchandise, it was a nightmare keeping track of orders, fulfilling orders. But then we started using Shopify, and it became so easy. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. 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He said he was scuba diving that day. According to Graysmith, a police officer pulled him over for speeding on the day of the attack and saw a bloody knife in his car. Allen said he used it to kill chickens. And I really like the guy who plays Arthur Leigh Allen in that movie. Yeah. He does a good job. He he's really good in it. Allen also lived just a few minutes from Blue Rock Springs Park where Darlene Ferrin and Mike Mageau were shot. In 1971, Allen's former friend Donald Cheney called the Manhattan Beach Police and reported that Allen had spoken of his desire to kill people. Cheney reported that he visited Allen's apartment in December 1968. They started off talking about hunting, and Allen brought up the short story, The Most Dangerous Game. They discussed the idea of hunting humans. Allen then gave a hypothetical account of how he would commit murders at Lover's Lanes. He said he would use a revolver with a flashlight attached for better aim, and he would walk up and shoot people. He talked about shooting the tires of a school bus and picking off little darlings. That's getting too close for comfort. And I think it's why, you know, to a lot of people, Arthur Leigh Allen became a very, very good suspect. I mean, just take what we just talked about, the most dangerous game, Lover's Lanes, revolver with a flashlight, shooting the tires out of a school bus. These are all things that showed up in Zodiac letters. Allen also said he would send harassing notes to the police and call himself Zodiac. Cheney asked per crime library, Zodiac, why that? Why not something else? Allen said, I like the name Zodiac, and that's the name I'm going to use. Cheney moved to Southern California in January 1971. He didn't think of Allen as a killer until that year when he heard about a series of unrelated murders in Grass Valley, California, and this kind of jogged his memory. A Vallejo Detective noted in a report that Allen had touched Cheney's young daughter inappropriately on a camping trip years earlier. Cheney complained to Allen's brother about it. The detective wrote, this might be a motive why Cheney would make such an accusation against Arthur Allen. Could be. And it's a it's a very interesting notion that, you know, someone touches your daughter inappropriately. Okay. You're gonna have to pay for that. Yeah. This is how you're gonna pay for it. But it's not gonna be physical. I'm gonna take everything I know about the zodiac, and I'm gonna tell police that you've said all these things. Yeah. I'm gonna make the zodiac you. Allen was interviewed again in 1971 and denied the incriminating conversation with his friend. He knew of media reports about the zodiac, but seemed to have no knowledge of the crimes. He did acknowledge reading the story The Most Dangerous Game. Allen had an alibi for the Lake Berryessa attack. He claimed he spoke with his neighbor when he came home that afternoon. Without any prompting, Allen brought up two knives he had in his car. He said the blood on them came from a chicken. Detectives commented on Allen's Zodiac Seawolf wristwatch with the cross circle design. He said it was a gift he received in 1969. However, his brother later said their mother gave it to Allen for Christmas nineteen sixty seven. Similar to your watch? It I did buy a Seawolf after we did the first season of Zodiac because I wanted a Zodiac watch. The San Francisco police searched Allen's home in 1972. No definitive evidence was discovered, but officers did find hunting knives and a freezer full of dead hamsters, squirrels, and birds. Strange. I mean, who doesn't have a freezer full of, you know, hamsters, squirrels, birds, porcupines? Racc**ns. Just whatever. No. You're right. It it's very weird. But if you watch the interviews with Arthur Liao and there are quite a few out there because he talked to the press a number of times. He did a lot of interviews. Wasn't shy. He seemed like a kind of a strange dude, which I'm sure didn't do much to to quell people's suspicion of him. Right? The fact that he did seem like a strange guy. Authorities learned that Allen owned the same caliber gun used in one of the shootings. He was also ambidextrous, which could have helped him disguise his true handwriting style. However, the police had samples of Allen's right and left handwriting, and neither one matched the Zodiac letters. It was determined that his fingerprints didn't match those at the Stine murder scene. Two years later in 1974, Allen was arrested for child molestation and sentenced to almost four years at Atascadero State Hospital. On 05/13/1977, Allen was given a suspended prison sentence and five years probation, which he completed in 1982. Allen was under investigation again in 1991 after an informant in an armed robbery case claimed Allen bragged about killing a cab driver. The Vallejo police executed another warrant at his residence. They found pipe bombs and illegal weapons, but nothing to prove he was the zodiac. But definitely had some things going on. Yeah. He had a bunch of stuff going on. You know? Obviously, he wasn't a a good guy. He was a child molester. But if you're an informant and you already know that the police are looking at him as the zodiac and you're looking maybe to get a little leniency or some special treatment, well, maybe you say that, you know, I heard Arthur Leigh Allen talking about killing a cab driver in San Francisco or something like that. That would do it. In August 1991, victim Michael Majot identified Allen from a photo lineup. That's a significant amount of time. Not saying that you would forget what somebody looked like, but It was twenty plus years. Arthur Allen died of a heart attack. In August 1992, he was 58 years old. Two days later, another search warrant was executed at his home and property was seized. Author and investigative reporter Robert Graysmith named Allen as the most likely suspects in two books about the case, Zodiac and Zodiac Unmasked. In 02/2002, DNA collected from a Zodiac letter stamp was compared to Allen's, but it wasn't a match. However, the DNA sample was so small, and the results were somewhat inconclusive according to biography.com. But it was said that Allen often had other people lick stamps for him, which is strange anyway. Hey. Can you lick my stamp? Yeah. You better be careful who you're asking that of because you're gonna get smacked right in your face Yeah. Thinking that you're talking about something else. Maybe. But it is it's weird. Right? You lick your own stamps. Because police in the sixties and seventies were unaware of DNA technology, some evidence was mishandled. The evidence is also spread out because multiple departments were involved. And and that's true of so many different cases. You know, back then, there's no way they could have known that DNA was going to be this unbelievable crime fighting tool. Undoubtedly, evidence was mishandled in in many cases. Protocol wasn't as tight, wasn't as strict Yeah. As it is today. But, you know, one of the things we haven't really talked about much is that the zodiac attacks, the known, some of the suspected, they did occur in multiple jurisdictions. And I think it's one thing that the movie does a pretty good job of is kind of show you how these departments weren't really in sync with each other. They weren't talking to each other. One didn't know what the other knew and and vice versa. Which I think makes it harder to obviously find this killer that's working in multiple counties. Yeah. It it hampered the investigation. There's no doubt about it. In October 2024, Netflix released the three part, this is the zodiac speaking, which focuses on Allen as a suspect. Producers interviewed the Seawater family, who considered Allen a father figure. Allen befriended their mother, Phyllis Seawater, after some of the kids began attending Santa Rosa Elementary. In 1961, where Allen was once a teacher, Phyllis had seven children. Her oldest children, David, Connie, and Don, attended Santa Rosa. Phyllis was a single mother. The children's father was institutionalized at Atascadero State. Connie Seawater thought Arthur Allen was great, big, burly, smiley friendly. He often ate dinner with them and took the kids on outings. For example, in June 1963, Allen took David, Connie, and Don to the beach outside Santa Barbara. He told them to stay in the car. But when he returned, she said he was covered in blood. Creepy. Well, even more creepy when they later learned. This was the same day Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards were murdered. Allen took Connie and David to Riverside on October 1966. They said they experienced gaps in their memory and later concluded that Allen drugged them. This trip coincided with the murder of Sherry Jo Bates. David Seawater spoke to Arthur Allen shortly before he died. In 1992, Allen admitted to drugging him and Connie in Riverside and molesting his younger sister. He also said that Allen allegedly confessed to being the Zodiac Killer. David told his family about Allen's confession, but they didn't believe him. They were estranged for years until his family saw the 02/2007 movie Zodiac. Connie recalled, the three of us started piecing together these jigsaw puzzle pieces of our childhood, and a hundred things finally fell into place. We started researching things and realized that we had been to all the murder sites before the murders. The siblings said the police didn't show much interest in their story, so they agreed to participate in the documentary to help give closure to everyone involved. I mean, like you said, he's the number one suspect. For many people. Yeah. For many people. And the only one the police have ever came out and mentioned. Yes. Now did you see that documentary? I did see the documentary. Didn't watch the documentary. Oh, it was good too. Both of them were good? Yeah. But here we are so many decades later, Gibbs, and investigators are still working to solve this both the zodiac murders and the ciphers. They haven't solved all of those. I've solved many of them? Yes. Why why you've not published your findings is still a mystery because because I don't think it's fair. That you're the only person who's smart enough to have solved them? Yeah. I wanna see if a few others can come along, and then we can compare. I gotcha. Yeah. Makes sense. In 02/2018, the Vallejo Police Department announced plans to submit evidence for DNA testing to create a profile for genealogy databases, which have been used to solve other high profile cases. No results have been announced so far. It's been a while. It it has been. You know, the Vallejo police submitted two envelopes that contain letters from the zodiac. Detective Terry Poiser told the Sacramento Bee, if we get a good profile, then you start tracking back. It really comes down to DNA. Without it, you have nothing. It's a fifty years old case, and I think that's very well said. You know, they have some things that, you know, could potentially result in a DNA profile. We talked about one that was said to be, like, very super weak. But here we are now in 02/2025. The technology is better. It is. Maybe they can do more with less. Maybe they can pull a better profile. But the genetic genealogy route is probably how they would solve this case if it if it ever gets solved. You know, it's how they solve the Golden State Killer case and so many others. You know, if you have DNA, it's possible that you can match it to not the killer, but somebody within the killer's family and then work your way back. Yeah. Track it back to who that person. Yeah. Poyser said he believes the Zodiac killer is no longer alive and that Arthur Allen remains the best suspect. There are probably 30 different circumstantial things that point to him. He was extremely intelligent, but a deviant dude. Poyser noted that the DNA profile from 02/2002 only had a few markers on it, which is less than half the genetic points needed to identify a suspect. The DNA sample was hampered because there was no technology to separate the glue used on stamps and envelopes from genetic material. But technology has since advanced. So, again, can they get a better sample? But, also, we talked about it. Right? If this guy, Allen, as it has been reported, was known to have asked other people to lick stamps and envelopes for him, well, you're gonna get somebody else's DNA Exactly. Even if he was the killer. But Poiser did say, if they could get a clean DNA sample, the police could ask people who licked stamps for Allen to submit their DNA. And if any of that matched, that would be a further link to him as being the Zodiac killer. That's true. I mean, if they could figure out the liquor Mhmm. Then the liquor could tell them. Because you gotta get the liquor first. Oh, absolutely. If you don't have the liquor, you've got nothing. It's it's over. But if you get the liquor and the liquor says, I did used to lick stamps for this guy, and his name was Slim Shady. It's true that some things change as we get older. 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Meet the all new Ford Transit Connect and Transit Courier, both totally redesigned and equally hardworking, bold, versatile, and built to go the distance. The Courier, it's the van that delivers, literally. The Connect, the ideal companion for your business no matter the challenge. And now they're smarter than ever. Available in plug in hybrid and electric. Small vans built for big jobs. Discover the Ford Pro range on Ford.IE or visit your local dealer today. Poissier told the paper that if Allen is not the Zodiac, it was most likely someone familiar with the Vallejo area, possibly someone with a law enforcement or military background. The first four victims were shot in rural areas, most likely only known to locals. And I think, you know, that's true in many cases. You know, we say that a lot. Detectives think, well, the killer has to be someone familiar with the area. Yeah. That makes sense. How are they gonna know where these lover's lanes are? I mean, I know back in the day before you were married, you've had a list of all the lover lanes. Once again, they're called Lover's Lanes, not Lover Lanes. You know who used to love Lover Lane? Who? Clubber Lang. Clubber Lang loved Lover's swings. Okay. Of the million different things that you could have said, that was not one that I would have predicted. Just what popped in my head. Well, he did have that smooth van. Wait. No. As he when he was in the '18? Yeah. Yeah. He did. Alright. So now I think it's a perfect time to bring in more kinda get his take as we wrap up talking about suspects. Yes. I can't wait to hear what he has to say. Alright, Gibby. It's time. We called up Morp on the old Skype, and now he's on the podcast. To man? The myth? The legend? The legend. Alright, Morp. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing good. How are you guys doing? Yeah. We're doing good. Appreciate you coming on. It only seemed right to have you on when we were, you know, talking zodiac. It seems so long ago that you and I did that first season of chronology because it was so long ago. Yeah. How many years was that? Two thousand sixteen, I think it was. Yeah. It's seven years, I would say, at least. Seven, eight years. I don't know. It's been a long time, and some things have changed in the Zodiac case since we did that. But it was a very in-depth and, coverage, and I tell everybody that they should go check it out for sure. But, you know, as we're kind of wrapping up, our coverage of the zodiac thought it only fitting to have you on. You know, it's one of the things that kind of led to to you and I working together. Yeah. I remember when I reached out the very first time, you're just saying I like the the show and what you guys did, and we started talking a little bit of zodiac stuff. And you told me you were really into the zodiac and sort of took off from there. And then it was like, hey. Let's do a podcast. And and, you know, it just, it went from there. But, you know, when you talk about the zodiac, I guess, what has fascinated you about the zodiac for so many years? Because, you know, you were solely I don't wanna say solely, but pretty much focused on the zodiac in your prepodcast True Crime Life. Yeah. It's a it's a case that can really suck you in and take over, and you're obsessing over it, and you do it in your spare time, and you're researching stuff, reading stuff, going through reports, looking at suspects, and it's like the movie Zodiac with, you know, Robert Graysmith, the way he got sucked into it sort of how it is. But, there's a lot of stuff to go through for sure. No no doubt. So in this episode, we're talking a lot about suspects, And I know that you know every potential suspect, quasi suspect that that there is that has to do with the the zodiac. Kinda let the listeners know because I think it's changed over the years. Your thoughts on, like, who the best suspect is? Well, you know, I think when we recorded our zodiac coverage on criminology, it was my favorite suspect was Ross Sullivan because he looked a lot like the sketch he was in the Riverside Library, which is a piece of the zodiac mystery that, you know, he tied to. But the but the issue in the year since we've we did that is, you know, I pretty much ruled him out because he could never be placed in river or not, excuse me, in Vallejo and, you know, or San Francisco for that matter. And, you know, he had some schizophrenia issues that would keep him hospitalized at times. You know, there were some reports that he drove, but no firm evidence that he did. So it's hard to place him in any of the spots where Zodiac was active. And, you know, for that and a few other reasons, I pretty much ruled him out. But, you know, since then since we recorded our coverage, there's been umpteen books, mentioned different suspects. There's been Netflix documentaries focusing on different suspects. So you can really, you know, look at the suspect pool and look at a lot of people. And, you know, the one that I've come to, which is one that I sort of found, I didn't, you know, read a book or anything and find this person. It's somebody that I developed. It was a a guy named William Mack Andrew who lived right in Vallejo, and he's my favorite suspect. And so that is one person we did not talk about. I don't think he's, you know, a real top of mind or, you know, a guy who's really on a lot of people's radar. So kinda tell us why, you know, you've began to think that he's a good possibility. Well, I spent a lot of time looking at suspects that had been in Riverside thinking that the Zodiac had to have been in Riverside and that that had to be you know, I had to find somebody with a background in Riverside. And, you know, I talked to a detective. He said, you know, you don't know that that's a Zodiac case. Why don't you stick to confirmed zodiac attacks and stuff and and focus on confirmed zodiac activity? And I sort of took his advice, and I said, well, let me just look at people in Vallejo. And I started you know, I the the thing that really got me interested in him is, you know, after the Blue Rock Springs attack, when Zodiac shot Darlene Ferrin and Mike Mageau, you know, third thirty five, forty minutes goes by, a good amount of time goes by before he makes that phone call where he you know, that infamous phone call. And he made that phone call from the the intersection of Springs and Tuolumne, and that was a drive that should have taken him, you know, ten minutes or so because it's only a couple miles from the park where he shot them at, but it he, you know, he waited a good thirty five, forty minutes. So I started thinking, well, what if, you know, why would he do that if he if he was driving out of town and wanted to make that call as he was heading out? The call should've came, like, ten minutes after the attack, but it came, like, you know, forty minutes after the attack. So I said, what if he lived around that phone booth and he, you know, went home, stashed his guns, parked his car, changed his clothes, whatever, just to disassociate himself from the crime and distance himself from any evidence that tied him to it. And then, you know, maybe he walked right over to that phone booth to make that call to police. And I started looking at people, you know, used an old Polk's directory that listed the residents of every house in the area. And I sort of just made a list of everybody that lived within walking distance within a couple hundred yards of that phone booth. And most of the places there were businesses, so nobody really lived there. But one of the places that somebody did live, was, you know, on on 12:00 in the 06:23, and that was this guy, William MacAndrew. He lived there with his parents at a real estate business there. And when I did some backgrounds searching on him, I found that he was five foot eight, you know, two hundred some odd pounds, large round face, wore glasses, was was a experienced shooter, was in the codes and ciphers, and, you know, I finally got my hands on his writing just to see if you know, I thought, well, maybe that's gonna rule him out. And it didn't. His handwriting looks remarkably like Zodiac's, you know, that that same slant that Zodiac, used. So right right away, I was like, okay. There's too many things that are just lining up here that are interesting. And then, you know, look at some of the things in his life, you know, they they line up perfectly with Zodiac's stops and starts in writing letters. You know, Zodiac didn't write from 1971 to 1974. Well, in 1971, he took a state job with the prison system. In 1974, he got engaged, and those coincide with the stops and starts in in Zodiac's letter writing for that three year period. We sort of saw that when we did Golden State Killer. You know, he is, D'Angelo's pause in between killings was, you know, when he last killed someone was 1981, then he didn't do it again till 1986, coincided with the birth of his two daughters. So it was interesting there was that that kind of, the stressors in his life that, you know, oftentimes police look for to see if there's any kind of new jobs, new marriages, babies being born, things that set off, these kind of people to do that kind of stuff. And it just so happens that he sort of lined up perfectly with that. So the more I looked at him, the more things fell into place, the more I was convinced that, you know, I have the right guy. Well, it's fascinating. I mean, that you know what it reminded me of as you were talking? Because you were so you're animated, and you can tell that you've, like, you've lived this stuff more of it. It reminded me of Gracemont's character in the movie. Yeah. I mean, it it's easy to get excited. And when you feel like you've got the right person, you sort of you could you can get tunnel vision, but, you know, I objectively, the stuff you know, I've shared it with other people. It's on, you know, forums on zodiackiller.com and stuff. I've shared everything I found. I've had some help finding some stuff and digging some stuff up. You know, you come and, again, where he lived was 280 feet from that phone booth. You could see the phone booth from his front window. So I I thought I thought he walked to that phone booth, called the police, and then walked back to his house so he could watch the police responding to that phone booth. That's, in my mind, what I think he did. And and because that's something Zodiac would wanna do. Yeah. I just I I I could see him there just getting his jollies watching the cops mess around at this phone booth. And and another thing, Zodiac in his letter, when he talks about that call at the phone booth, he said the person that saw me at the phone booth making that call and saw my car was brown was a black guy. Now he's trying to sell the police on his car being brown, and somebody saw him at that phone booth. He's trying to oversell it, my opinion. I think there was no car. So he's got the police trying to look for some kind of brown car that doesn't exist. Meanwhile, I think he's, you know, 200 odd feet away looking out at his window. How amazing would it be if at some time in the future, some connection is made to this guy and you can point back to, oh, just go listen to this episode, and you'll hear me say it. Yeah. I mean, it it would be great. I just wanna see the case solved whether, you know, I'm right or I'm wrong. I I just wanna find out, you know, the truth, and that's why I hope there is DNA that can maybe come into play someday and and use genealogy to prove who it was, whether it's him or somebody else. You know, I just want the case to be solved. You and so many others. Well, listen, Moore. Appreciate you coming on so much, man. It means a lot. A lot of people who listen to True Crime All the Time Unsolved and also listen to Criminology asked me, are you going to have Morph on? Or they said, well, you can't do a a Zodiac episode and not invite Morph. And I was like, well, you're right. We have to. So we appreciate it very much. I'm always happy, and it's good to talk to Gibby even though he can't hear me. Appreciate that knowledge, bud. Yeah. Yeah. There's something going on with our system, so Gibby can't hear you, but, he can talk. In 02/2020, '3 amateur codebreakers solved the Zodiac's 340 character cipher, which was sent to the San Francisco Chronicle on 11/08/1969. That's amazing that it took that long. It fifty years. It really was a long time. The cipher said, I hope you're having lots of fun and trying to catch me. That wasn't me on the TV show, which brings up a point about me. I'm not afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me to paradise all the sooner. Because I now have enough slaves to work for me where everyone else has nothing when they reach paradise, so they are afraid of death. I'm not afraid because I know that my new life will be an easy one in paradise death. The TV show referenced in the cipher was the Jim Dunbar talk show. The cipher was sent two weeks after a person claiming to be the zodiac called in. And I think there's a a thought by many that the zodiac was prompted to send that letter because he was upset that someone was claiming responsibility for his work. Right. Don't you claim what I have done. The cipher was decoded by David Aranchak, Jarl Van Eyck, and Sam Blake. Aranchak had been working to solve the zodiac cipher since 02/2006. The trio took their findings to the FBI. He explained to CNN how he used decryption software to sift through 650,000 variations of the message. That's amazing. And Morphew and I actually had David on our criminology podcast for season one, the the zodiac season. He's an amazing guy. Very smart. The FBI issued a statement that they were aware the cipher was solved, but they would not be providing further comment due to the ongoing investigation and out of respect for the victims and their families. In October 2021, an independent group of cold case investigators called the Case Breakers claimed they identified the Zodiac. They believed Gary Francis Post, who died in 02/2018, was the killer. Their claims were based on DNA evidence found at the scene of Sherry Jo Bates' murder. According to Biography.com, Post had the same shoe size and a similar forehead scar as the Zodiac. Letters to the press contained anagrams of his name. CNN reported that the Riverside PD could not comment on the suspect, but they did say the Zodiac did not kill Cheri Jo Bates. Okay. Confident about that, I think. Well, so what are they saying? That's not Post. They don't believe Post is the Zodiac, but there that doesn't mean he couldn't have killed Cheri Jo Bates. Right. The SFPD confirmed that it is still an open investigation, and they could not speak on suspects. Although the zodiac claimed to have killed 37 people, there are no confirmed Zodiac cases after 1969. You know, it is possible, Gibbs, that at some point, the Zodiac just chose to stop killing. Possible. Possible. I kind of think with most serial killers, that's not normally the case, but it is possible. I usually tend to on the side that there's something that stops them. Right. Whether it's because they're incarcerated on, you know, some other charge or conviction, they die, they move, and maybe they're killing in another area, and those murders aren't connected. The FBI's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime notes that serial killers may stop their crimes. If something changes in their lives, it perhaps almost getting caught made the zodiac stop, or he chose to stop due to old age. Decades later, the identity of the zodiac remains unknown, and numerous cases are still unsolved. But as we keep talking about in many unsolved cases, you have advancements in DNA. You have these advancements in genetic genealogy. I think there's probably more hope now than ever that investigators may one day find out who the Zodiac Killer is. Now there's a very good chance that when they do, this person's not going to be alive. You know, if you think about the fact that it's been fifty some years. Right? In a few years, it'll be sixty years. It will. Yeah. It's crazy. It's hard to believe. So if you think about a guy being 25 to 35 or 25 to 45, whatever the estimate was, okay. Chances are that person's probably not going to be alive. No. Or if they are They may not be for much longer. Yeah. Is that is that is that what you were saying? Yeah. So what are you gonna do to them? Exactly. But but to me, the punishment part is probably out the window whether that person is alive or not. Yeah. Even if they are alive, if you put them in prison, maybe they're they'll die within a little bit. It's more about solving this mystery that has consumed so many people for so many years. Yeah. And I think with this particular one, if you could solve it, you've proven the zodiac wrong. Right? He thought he could go undiscovered. Yeah. And amazingly has Yeah. For for so long. Yeah. It's just But the other thing is then, you know, trying to figure out, right, which of these cases are actually attributed to the zodiac. Because there are some that are known. There are some that are suspected. So you have that work as well. And I think once you can identify who the real zodiac is, maybe it makes that part a little easier Yeah. Trying to figure out the the cases that are really connected to him. But that's it for our three parter on the Zodiac Killer. We got some voice mails. You wanna check those out? Wanna hear those. Hi. This is Kaisha out of Utah. I was listening to your part one on the Zodiac today, and I believe I solved the random letters at the end of the z four zero eight letter. Sorry. I'm all excited. I wanted to try and report it to the FBI that I couldn't get through. So each of those letters, if you use each one individually, it spells the sentence, the epitome of the behemoth. I couldn't find anything on the Internet of someone else solving it or finding out what it meant. So I thought I would share it here because this is what inspired me to look. So keep your own time ticking. Thanks. Bye. That's awesome. That'd be amazing. Yeah. If she shared it here first. Yes. I have to wait and see. We have to share that with Morph. I don't know what that means. That little phrase? Yeah. What was the phrase? I forget. The epitome of the behemoth. Yeah. First of all, I know you don't know two of those words. So I knew it was gonna be hard for you to, The is a tough word to understand. Recite that back. But that, I mean, that would be really cool if for some reason she solved it and they verified. Hi. My name is Luna Michael, and I'm calling from Upstate New York, which, by the way, is anything from Albany and above, in case you're wondering. A lot of people have an argument about that. I have been listening to your podcast for about a month or so. The reason why I wanted to leave a voice mail is because, while ago, I one of you guys said, that it'd be weird if people use your podcast to fall asleep. I actually listen to your podcast during the day, but also to fall asleep. Your guys' voices help me go to sleep easier. But yeah. I love your guys' episode. You guys are actually one of my favorite podcasts, and I have a lot of pure time podcasts. But, yeah, keep doing what you guys are doing, and keep your own time ticking. Bye. Alright. Love that voice mail. I mean, it makes us feel great. Gibbs, if it was up to me, everybody would put the podcast on and just let it play nonstop. Sorry. I was falling asleep. Oh, sorry. Because of my voice? Yeah. That would just increase our, download numbers and help us out. You don't even you can just turn the volume all the way down. Just let it play all night. Play twenty four seven, really. Yeah. Twenty four seven would be great. Yeah. Put it on recycle and just let it keep going around. Did you say recycle? Yeah. Is that what that that means? Reloop or Reloop? That little, you know I think reloop is an oxymoron. That's a because if you're looping, you're already coming back around. So if you're it. If you're relooping Yeah. Just do loop loop? Oh, I don't know, but you crack me up. Alright, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time unsolved. So for Mike And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Pluto TV is the place for movie fans like me. And TV fans like me. They've got something for everyone, and it's totally free. You can binge laugh out loud sitcoms like Frasier. And rewatch cult classics like higher learning. Oh. Whether you're in the mood to solve a little crime before bedtime with NCIS or Tracker. Or curl up with a surefire hit like Forrest Gump. Run, Forrest. Pluto TV has thousands of movies and shows all for free. Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.