Transcript
Maggie Palmer joins us. She focuses on helping women get paid more and promoted faster. Her negotiation tips are amazing for people inside corporate and outside. She shares her story of how she found out her male peers were getting paid significantly more and her battle over that. She's built pep talk her community and she's a speaker and executive coach. She'll teach you how to ask for more money, how to negotiate, how to counter a no we don't have money for that, what to ask for instead, and we talk about how our brains are wired to see the negative and how we can undo that. And for those self employed folks, she shares her three w technique to negotiate. I always suggest people do is kind of come armed to those conversations with with the the evidence basically and the proof So that you can kind of document that to your to your boss or your superior to kind of outline why you are deserving. Yes, there are rules and there's always exceptions to the rule. Welcome to the exit interview with Kim Rittberg. Do you work for yourself and wanna supercharge your business while still having fun? Well, this is your go to podcast. Part MBA, part cheer squad, every week I'll be joined by top business owners who share the secrets to their success. After I found myself working during childbirth, true story, I quit my executive media job to bet on myself. Fighting the fear and imposter syndrome to eventually earn six awards, an in demand speaking career, and features in Fast Company and Business Insider. Now I'm here to celebrate all you rock stars betting on yourself, and I wanna help you win. Tune in every Wednesday to hear from remarkable founders, and don't miss our solo Friday episodes, a treasure trove of video and podcasting mini master classes with me. Exit the grind, enter success on your own terms. Don't forget to subscribe today and grab my free video tips at my website, kimrittberg.com. Maggie Palmer is a globally renowned speaker, facilitator, and executive coach known for her impactful work in supporting the diversification of leadership talent and empowering professionals to navigate their pathways to success. With a client list that includes Fortune 100 companies such as Microsoft, DocuSign, and JPMorgan, Maggie's expertise has been recognized by prestigious publications like Vogue magazine and Forbes, cementing her status as a confidence creator. In her former life, she was a foreign correspondent for the BBC, CNBC, and others, and she's a proud Aussie who calls New York City home. Alright. Maggie, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm stoked to be here. So fun fact for the audience, I lived in Australia. I lived in Bondi Beach for a year. A year after college, I moved there. And, honestly, Australia is so amazing. Sydney, Australia has the best of New York and LA combined. So, Maggie, what brought you to New York? Well, I love hearing that you had the pleasure of living in Bondi. I lived there for, I guess, like, maybe seven or eight years myself. I loved it. Yeah. Why did I leave the beach and the Bondi De Bronte Walk and amazing shrimp, and sushi for New York City? Not that the shrimp and sushi isn't great here too, but sometimes I do miss, I do miss the Aussie food. It's a long story, Kim. Like, I had lived around the world, in my work as a journalist. I loved living abroad and getting, you know, getting to know different people, different cultures, and I went back to Australia for an amazing job. And then I just kind of was getting itchy feet, honestly. I love Australia. I love all my family and friends there still, and I go back every year. I just wanted another adventure, and so my partner and I was sort of tossing out, would we move to SF or New York City? And I wanted to move to San Francisco because I have an app, but I, you know, was into the tech vibe. But he had a dream to live in New York, and so we compromised, and I'm thrilled that we ended up here because I love it. It. So we've been here eight years now, but I've still got a thick Aussie accent. So You gotta hold on to that. The Aussie accent's so good. And, by the way, it makes me laugh. You're like, you know, in, like, twenty years ago or in the nineties or whatever, the whole Australian thing was like, throw another shrimp on the barbie. And you're like, I miss the shrimp. Oh my god. I love the character too, aren't I? I know. I don't wrestle crocodiles, but I do love shrimp on the barbie. So It is delicious. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hit on that. So, Maggie, talk to me about your pivot. Like, how did you go from being a journalist to doing pep talk her? Tell me about your path. Yeah. I guess my pivot was really motivated by being pissed off, frankly. I was frustrated. Long story short, I I worked as a foreign correspondent for about fifteen years and a journalist. I loved it. It's, like, such a cool job. You get the privilege, as you know, from, like, you know, meeting people at their highest of highs and then also getting a window into folks' lives in their lowest moments too. And so it's this amazing window into the world. But long story short, I had an experience with with an employer where my paying conditions were very different, as it turns out, to that of my male colleagues who I sat next to in the newsroom. And so I just thought they'd sort of stuffed it up and made a mistake, like an error. And so I was like a bulls**t I don't know. I was a lot younger, and I was like, wow. Like, let's just get this fixed, and this is a mistake, and it'll be no dramas. And so I said, oh, hey. Like, can we just sort this out? And they were like, yeah. So if you're not happy with your paying conditions, you've got two choices. You could quit, or you can take us to court. And I know. I was like, are you effing kidding me? I just you know, I was, like, raised you know, I'm like a kid of the eighties, and I was raised to think women and girls can do everything, and I had this sort of illusion that everything was fair and equitable, which obviously was very naive. And I appreciate for so many people, they don't get to that point in life until they have that horrible realization. I was lucky that it took me that long. But, yeah, I was just shocked. And so long story short, I end up getting a lawyer because I was like, you can't prank people like this. And I was just really frustrated, and I kind of felt him, like cause I was lucky I had savings and I didn't have children or a family at the time, so I could take on that fight. I felt, like, very responsible because I was thinking, what if I was pregnant or what if I was the breadwinner? I couldn't, like, go into battle with a with a major employer because, you know, it's obviously it was gonna be irreparable. And so yeah. So I got a lawyer, and then I was like, okay. So this happened to me as a middle class white woman. There must be a lot of other folks getting totally screwed over. And turns out, obviously, the blinkers are off. I started to learn about the gender pay gap. I started to learn about, you know, the the fact that black women, indigenous women in Australia, it's significantly less than than white women. And, obviously, the gap is significant for all of us. So that just kind of became, I guess, the the thing that kind of fueled me to figure out how could you solve for this problem. Because, you know, statistically, if you look at the United Nations, they reckon it's, like, two hundred plus years with the current rate of change until we get to equity. And I just was like, that's not good enough. So I was very interested in how could you, at a grassroots level, instigate a level of change with the goal that, you know, the ripple effect would kind of, you know, spread out and hopefully create a tidal wave of change, and that's ultimately the the mission of Pep Talker is to kinda close that gender pay gap, and then as part of that, the leadership gap as well. Okay. So I have several follow-up questions. So number one, I'm very interested in the fact I also was in corporate, and I was in where, basically, no one ever talked about what they earned ever. Right. I actually didn't know where I stood compared to my peers or my male peers. How did you number one, I'm interested to know, how did you get that information that you were paid less? Yeah. And you know what? It's a really great point. It was a male ally who told me. And he was like, quote unquote, you should have negotiated better. And, like, so that was one part of it, but then also, in my specific situation, the the way that they were enforcing the contracts was also very different. The men were getting preferential treatment when certain clauses it's like a long boring story, but but, yeah, there was there was the twofold. There was the pay, and then there was also, like, the benefits and the way the packages were enforced that were very different. But it was because of a male ally that I even found out. And at the time, Australia had a law that said you you legally could not discuss your compensation if there was a clause in your contract. Now they've since overruled that very recently, about twelve to eighteen months ago. So now you can talk about it. So, yeah, pay disparagement clauses were were only recently removed. They don't have them in The US, and they don't have them in The UK, which is a good thing. Great. So one thing I've started doing for the exit interview is, can you give me your exit in one sentence or five words? Like, how would I sum up that exit? Yeah. I mean, I have an idea. Mine's like a haiku, but, you know. Doors is a haiku. Thank god I got out. I don't know. You said you'd out. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. I love that. I was thinking, like, pissed off, paid less, pep talker. Oh, there we go. See, this is why you work in marketing. You're a guru at this time. Yeah. I mean, that works too. I love it. Also, I just kind of I also love the quote leap and the net will appear. Oh, yeah. And that kinda speaks to me as well in the sense of, like, you know, my exit from that particular company and role wasn't ideal, and yet, also so grateful. Right? Because if that hadn't have happened, probably I would have never have met you and, you know, maybe my son wouldn't have been born in Brooklyn. Like, all these things, like, who knows? And and I'm I'm grateful for the path that I'm on. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Right? It was horrendous at the time. It actually gave me a lot of anxiety too. Like, I couldn't leave my apartment. I was finding it so stressful. And I now know that that's because, you know, corporates use tactics when they're exiting folks from business or when they're going through, you know, illegal staffs, like like in my instance. I now know that it's all a game. It's all a game. It's not personal. It's just a game. But in the in the moment and at the time, know, I took it all on. So if anyone listening is having a similar situation, please DM me. I'm happy to kind of help talk you off the ledge if if you're feeling stressed out about it too. And talk to me about how did that end up wrapping up? What was the conclusion of all of that? I ended up exiting the business. I actually stayed in media for a little bit longer. I went to another organization, which I loved, and that was so pivotal to sort of the direction that my career took as well. But, yeah, in that particular instance, I tried to be nice. Like, I actually I actually hired a mediator to start with to try and let's all be friends and kumbaya, and, like, I'm gonna people please my way out of this. And they just didn't take me seriously. And it wasn't until I got a lawyer. I should have actually paid for a more expensive, higher profile lawyer, and I would have had a better outcome. There's another lesson. Yeah. It wasn't it wasn't the exit that I would have hoped for because I think, again, the people pleaser in me wanted to be friends with everyone and what I didn't wanna rock the boat. You know, I think often very, very, very rarely do people want to get into a legal argument or wants to even leave on bad terms. Most people just most people wanna have a great exit from their roles, as you know from the folks that you talk to. But in my instance, in that particular role, it just it just wasn't possible, sadly. But, again, grateful for the things that I've learned, because that's really allowed me to help support thousands of other people. You know, my mistakes, I've paid forward to other people, so hopefully, you know, others are better informed than I was. You had to be satisfied with how it all wrapped up? I'm not sure if induced anxiety is ever something that I would say I'm satisfied. Like, it was the first time I had anxiety, was that whole process, so I don't I don't know if I would say I'm satisfied. I'm grateful with with retrospect that that I left and that I had that experience because it opened my eyes. Yeah. Again, I think, you know, when we talk about the pay gap, when we talk about discrimination in the workplace, you know, the data is much worse for folks of color. You know? And I think that's something else that that I've learned from this whole experience is that, look, really, I'm privileged even in what what I went through. There's so much privilege that comes with that. And so maybe it would have taken me longer to learn that lesson if I hadn't gone through that, so perhaps that's a good thing. So let's talk about negotiations. So talk to me about, like, big picture. What are and I don't wanna put the onus on, like, what are women getting wrong? But, like, what's happening in negotiations that maybe we're not thinking about that we need to have a mindset shift so that we can go and negotiate better? So I understand that your goal through Pep Talker is help women get paid more and get promoted faster. Totally. That's exactly that's exactly what we're trying to do is help help everyone listening to get paid a hell of a lot more and hopefully get promoted faster. So the thing that I would love people to to leave our conversation with today is to understand that, like, you have agency. Right? I think often, nine times out of 10, we think whoever we're negotiating with has all the power. Right? Like, oh, they're a fancy employer, or they hold the keys to the paychecks. And that may be true. And, also, you know, nine times out of 10, not a charity. Like, they're not hiring you to be nice and cute and kind. Like, they're hiring you because you're crushing it at what you do or because you're an expert or because you're gonna make a leader's life easier or because, you know, with Pep Talker, we're delivering services that are, you know, massively moving the needle in terms of their retention data. So, like, we have value to bring to the table as a company, just as listeners today who are working in the corporate space. You have value as a corporate employee. And even when they're saying things like, oh, there's no more budget this year, things are tight, etcetera, etcetera, the onus is on you to do the mental gymnastics ahead of time so that as and when you get stonewalled or blocked in terms of asking for what you want, you're able to pivot the conversation towards nonmonetary benefits as well that is also negotiable. So I think the thing is that, like, often maybe you're like me. My first experience of negotiating was when I was, like, 15, Like, arguing with my dad about whether I should be grounded because I talked back too much. Shocker. So maybe, like, maybe folks have, like, a negative connotation about negotiation because or maybe we saw it on billions, and we think that, like, if you negotiate, you have to be, like, a boss, like, you know, slamming your fist on the table, and it's like an aggressive, like, like, it's an argument. And, actually, if we just go back to basics, if we go back to the dictionary, negotiation is actually just a conversation. It's a conversation with a specific goal of finding an agreement. So sometimes we think that a negotiation is a fight or a battle or or butting of heads, but actually, it's just two folks, like, figuring it out and trying to come to a midpoint. Right? Like, that's all it is. And so if you can kinda take that mindset with you, all of a sudden, you don't need to have a finance degree. You don't have to work on Wall Street to be a great negotiator. The reality is you have something to offer, and the other person has something that they need or something to offer as well. I'm just trying to figure out what that looks like. Sometimes in the middle, not always, but just figuring out what are your nonnegotiables, what are their nonnegotiables, and what are they willing to to move on. So I'll give you an example, Kim. Like, remember back when I was a journalist, obviously, we always wanna start with pay. So when you're negotiating, we always wanna maximize your monetary compensation, and then, you know, you wanna move to sort of non monetary stuff, and one of the things that I always knew that I could negotiate on was annual leave. So in Australia, you get paid on your vacations even when you're, you know, when you're on leave, and so I would always negotiate eight weeks of paid vacation, because I knew it was no skin off their nose. Like, sometimes they'd do it officially, sometimes it'd be a handshake, unofficial, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. You just take an extra two weeks, and we won't tell anyone. But, like, that was easy enough for them to do. I was happy because I wanted to travel more. There is a monetary value to that. Right? It's like two weeks of my salary. So figuring out, like, what are the things and the levers that they can move on if you hit an impasse with the stuff that they can't negotiate on. What are some counters to their arguments? Like, okay. Let's say, for example, that nonmonetary benefit of leave. Let's say they say, sorry, Maggie, but, you know, your colleagues only get six weeks, so I can't give you eight weeks because that would be inequitable or unfair. Yeah. Totally. And so in that instance, it's again, the onus is on you to make sure that you're coming to the table with the with the meat on the bone as to why you deserve that. And one of the reasons why we built the Pep Talker app is because, you know, it's so our brains are actually hardwired for negativity. Right? And so when we get negative feedback or, you know, a negative performance review, you better believe we're gonna spiral about that for weeks. Right? And yet you probably have received a bunch of positive feedback this week, like, in your instance, maybe on social media, maybe, like, comments and people who are rating your show, giving you good feedback, your corporate clients giving you good feedback. But if someone gives you negative feedback or a negative review, you just kinda stew on it. And so we do the same things when it comes to our career. And the PepTalker app is really aimed at helping you shift your mindset instead of spiraling onto the negative, really focusing, dwelling, and, like, highlighting and documenting the positives. So every time you do get a positive review, every time you do get a contract renewed, every time you do increase your sales goal or, you know, if you're working in a in a company and you organize a team bonding event, record all of those things in the app, and then you have a record. You have data to back up your argument and your case to why you should get paid more, why you deserve more vacation, or why you, you know, are the best candidate for that promotion. And so one of the things that I that I always suggest people do is kind of come armed to those conversations with with the the evidence, basically, and the proof so that you can kind of document that to your to your boss or your superior to kind of outline why you are deserving. Yes. There are rules, and there's always exceptions to the rule. They're not gonna tell you that there's exceptions to the rule, but I'm gonna tell you right now, there is always an exception to the rule. Sometimes there will be pay bands that can't be shifted, and perhaps you're aware of one off spot bonuses or signing bonuses or increases in, you know, equity and stuff like that or, you know, higher commission rate than other people or if you do this, then this. Like, it's also kind of doing the mental gymnastics ahead of time to prove and to come up with alternatives. So, you know, you can also say, like, with respect to the boss who said you can't have more vacation, I totally get that it's company policy to have six weeks of vacation. And with respect, I am an outlier to the company policy, as you all know, from the fact that my sales, achievements are 22% year on year better than the rest of the team. You will note that my attendance is a %. You'll recall the Coca Cola client sent this specific feedback through about me on the February 19, which I'm sure you'll recall. And so with respect, I would like to be given exceptional consideration outside of the bounds of what is normal because my performance is exceptional compared to my colleagues. I love that. It's up to you to be able to make that case and that argument. You can't just say, well, been here for two years, so I want it. That's not enough anymore. Right? But you've gotta get make it easy for them. So what I always say to people, like, ahead of time, you already know like, it doesn't really matter what you ask them. You already know what the response is. Right? Like, the response is either gonna be yes, it's gonna be no, or it's gonna be maybe. Like, you can literally map that out now. And so, like, map it out. Right? Like, grab a piece of paper, grab a pen, and do a little mind map. Yes, no, maybe. If they say yes, where am I gonna pivot? If they say no, where am I gonna pivot? If they say maybe and, like, you can you can write down phrases, and you can take notes in with you. And the first time you have this practice conversation, it shouldn't be with your boss. Like, if you're friends with Kim, you need to call her. If you're friends at me, you need to call me. You need to talk to your roommate, your uncle, your brother, your dad, whatever. Have a fake conversation. Yeah. Like, let's role play this, and you're gonna giggle and you're gonna laugh and you might cry, and that's all fine because let's get it out now when it's safe and no consequence versus when you're in the room. Again, our brain doesn't know that this is fake versus real. So we're trying to get our brain really used to the idea of asking for these things, being bold, being courageous in a safe space so that when you're in a higher stress environment, you're a bit more nervous. Your brain has heard this before, so it's gonna be more calm, more, you know, confident in terms of how you deliver it, and it's gonna be perceived from a place of power. You're gonna come from more of a place of power, and your boss is gonna really sense that as well. Like, that energy is very palpable when you're when you're coming from a place of power. I love the idea of doing the mock interview. I always used to do my eldest brother. I have two brothers, but my eldest brother was, like he would do the mock interview with me, and he'd be like, stop. That was a nervous laugh. I'm like, okay. And then, like, I would run through the situations. And I definitely had situations in which I did great job in negotiating and other times I did not at all. And I look back and I'm like, oh, okay. Right? Like, I didn't I didn't think before I said that. And this was in the era before basic basically, when someone could ask you what you earned and you would have to tell them. Yeah. Not have to, but, like, you just felt like you should. Now the laws have changed in New York at least that no one can ask you, but it used to be that they'd say, what were you earning or what are you earning? And then they go from there, which obviously is awful and blocks you from making great strides and bumps. But Totally. I do think, you know, I I really think the idea of practicing is super important and I think it dovetails, you know, I I teach people about communication skills and nothing can be the first time. If, you know, you're getting on a stage and you're giving a speech, that better be your seventh time. Totally. You know, you better practice those skills in small situations, on camera, in your office, blah blah blah. So if the first time you're doing it is there, you're in trouble. I liked your point earlier. I meant to follow-up with you. You were saying that our brains so you were saying our brains are trained to focus on the negative. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. So it makes sense. Right? Because if you think about back when we were cavemen and women, it's like our brains were hardwired to, like, look for danger. Right? So, like, oh, there's a tiger or a bear or, like, a thunderstorm on the horizon. Like, that it was like a survival mechanism. Of course. Like, I wanted to know if they my I want my brain to be ready to spot the tigers and the bears and the lions or whatever it is. Right? So that's just, like, how our brain works. Like, for survival, that's that's what we had to focus on, or else we would get eaten or or else we would starve or whatever the case may be. Right? And so we actually those reptilian, characteristics of our brain, in many parts, haven't changed. But the cool thing about our brain is that neuroplasticity tells us, and the science behind it tells us, that we can we can rewire our brain, but it takes time, and it's, like, basically, the way it works, and for people who've read about neuroplasticity, you'll know some of this. It's, like, the way our neurons fire in our brain, it kind of like muscles, so it's like, I'm getting back into my Pilates right now, Kim, and equally, I would love these muscles to be massive right now, but I've only been going, like, two or three times a week, so they're getting better, but they're not massive yet. Right? But if I keep going to Pilates and if I keep stretching this muscle and flexing these muscles regularly, okay. They're gonna get tighter. They're gonna get more muscly. They're gonna get stronger. But, like, once a month, it's not gonna it's not gonna work. But if I do this every day for two years, all of a sudden, I'm like the female Arnold Schwarzenegger. Right? I'm gonna be, like, massive and super ripped and fit and all those kind of things. And it's sort of the same thing with the muscle in our brain, like and that's why we worked with the behavioral psychologist when we built the Pep Talker app because it was like we wanted it to be a behavioral loop that that creates a positive behavioral change. So just like a lot of the apps are created to make it addictive for us to wanna use, we created the Pep Talker app to not not from an addictive perspective, but we wanted it to be really flexing those muscles in your brain to reflect on, hey, Kim. What are you proud of this week? What are you celebrating today? What's happened this week that you wanna recall at performance review time? That's a muscle that we have to flex because most teams don't reflect on what they're celebrating. The start of all of our team meetings, it's the first thing I ask people is, like, what are we celebrating this week? Like, let's go back to the wind. I wanna learn the lessons too, but I wanna start with the celebration. Like, let's focus on that. And if we do that every team meeting, that becomes a practice. The The first time people join the team, that's not what they focus on, but that's what we wanna train people to focus on. And that's why we built the pep talker app because I want you to remember, even if you had a bad week overall, even if you didn't hit your target, all these really cool things happened. Happened. You trained the intern. The CEO liked your message in the Slack team channel or some you got, you know, good impressions on LinkedIn. Or if you're working with Kim, you know, you had great engagement with your video content. Like, I want you to focus on those, not on the one troll who's left you a negative comment. Like, that does not outweigh all the positives. Right? And so we kind of think of it like a period tracking app, except instead of tracking your cycle, it tracks your wins at work, and that has to be your practice so that your brain can start to default to that. Because if you can start to do it in everyday life, all of a sudden in your negotiations, the the stonewalling that we can't do that, there's no more budget, you've only been here eighteen months, those things throw you off less because you're able to pivot more easily. You're like, listen. I understand this is not normal. I get that I'm new to the team, and I'm super excited to reiterate the wins that I've had, including the 17% year on year increase in the web clicks that we've had, the positive feedback from the executive leadership team on my leadership of, you know, our team of 10. Like, you're able to kind of reflect back those wins in a way that is really hard for people to then ignore your requests, candidly. What sort of leverage do you have? A lot of times, I think that people ask for things. They feel like they don't have leverage. You get a no, and you're like, oh, I just bumped up against a no. I wanna get promoted, I wanna get a raise. Yeah. So when you have a plan b or when you have a lot of leverage, you can negotiate from a bigger position of power. Right? And this is the thing. It's very like, the way that I can negotiate today is very different to someone who's negotiating, who has no savings, who is the sole breadwinner, and who is a single mother, for example. So your situation impacts every negotiation, and so those are the things that, you know, I can give you lots of advice, and you also have to put it in context of where you are right now. If you lose this job, if this creates a rift in the business, what is the ramifications for you? If you've got another job offer that you can sign tomorrow, it's very easy for you to go hardcore with the negotiation because you just don't care because you have an alternative. And so always having alternatives is one of the the biggest things that we talk about in the pep talk and mastermind and in our courses because having leverage and and having a network and community of people who can help you find those opportunities as and when you need them is is crucial. But the other thing is also just and Alex Carter does really great work on this, and she's she speaks about this in her book as well. She has a great book called Ask for More. She talks a lot about, you know, the way that you communicate in a negotiation is also powerful, because we know from research that men and women who are bosses both discriminate against women when they negotiate, because of the unconscious bias that we have that women should be people pleasers, and they should in the background and making everyone look good. That's like a historical context, which is a whole another conversation, but because of that unconscious bias that exists in the world, there is discrimination against women when we, quote, unquote, dare to ask for more. And so the way that we ask and the language that we use when we ask is actually really important, not because we should have to change ourselves because of the unconscious bias, but because if we want the best result for ourselves, that's gonna short shortcut our way to success. Right? And so what we know for women is collective language is very powerful. So if I say, I want a new salary. I want a higher salary because I'm amazing, and I want it now. You could totally do that. And the research tells us that if we reframe that to say, you know, I'm so proud of the work that we as a team have done this year, and, collectively, we've moved the needle in this way. And so with that in mind, I'm really excited to talk to you about my compensation moving forward. So for whatever reason, the collective, when women negotiate as a collective, we do a lot better, and, actually, the research shows that women are actually better collective negotiators than we are individual negotiators. So perhaps some folks listening can relate to this. When when negotiating on behalf of our team or on behalf of our company, we feel very strong and powerful, but all of a sudden, when we have to negotiate for ourselves, that is where some of us feel more of a struggle comes up. And so so, yeah, it's just it's helpful to understand the research so that then you can use that to inform the way you go about these conversations. I always find it really ironic that companies will negotiate with you more when you're about to leave. I'm like Totally. I just think, like, big picture. I have, like, a real problem with corporate. I think that you should value and give those raises to people who have loyalty that you like instead of forcing them to look for another opportunity because then they might leave. Like, there are jobs that will pay somebody 30% more that's outside, and then they'll negotiate and maybe they'll stay, maybe they won't. You just chased away an amazing employee. But anyway, that's like an aside. I just think it's very counterproductive to companies Yeah. That often your strongest leverage is when you have an outside offer because sometimes that offer looks awesome. And then you're like, oh, I didn't realize how much I was worth at a different company. Totally. And I will say to that, like, to your point around leverage, the the leverage firstly, you should be negotiating every single year because the reality is that a squeaky wheel gets the oil. You know, I had a client once, Kim, and she was like, oh, I tried to negotiate once, and it didn't work. And I was like, okay. So tell me about what happened. She told me, and I was like, when was that? And she was like, oh, it was five years ago. So she hadn't negotiated for five years. And so they said no once, and she never asked again. And so, of course, in that time, because of inflation and the cost of living, in fact, she was sliding backwards. But to your point, the other piece of leverage that we always have is that one of the things that folks will will probably know that recruiting costs are significant. So they can be anywhere from sort of like 10 to 30% of a salary. So if you're earning a hundred thousand dollars and if you leave a business, chances are they're gonna spend 10 to $30,000 recruiting for you, let alone the loss of institutional knowledge, the the, you know, the time overlap, the stress, and the punish that it is for your boss to be without you for however many months while they recruit. So there is that inherent leverage that you have too, that you can be like, listen. I don't wanna leave. I love the culture here. I love working under your leadership, and I just love to find a way for me to stop considering these external offers that keep coming to me unsolicited. So can we just have a really candid conversation about that? And just, like, really leaning into the honesty of it, and then also you have to believe you when they tell you. Like, if they say it's just not gonna happen, you know, as much as you love it, if money is important to you and if those benefits that you're trying to negotiate are important, you may have to look elsewhere. You might not want to, but you may have to. Right? And so it's also just being honest about yourself and and what you really need. I have to say, Maggie, I must have been channeling you, because I was at lunch with a friend recently who's been in corporate for a long time and she's really successful and she was saying that she had an outside outside company approaching her and, you know, just in terms of her personal life, she's a mom. It's like not the right time and the opportunity wasn't that good, but it was for a bunch more money. And I was like, why don't you go to your boss and say, I'm not looking for this. They approached me in all candor. I'm happy here, but, like, I can't deny that this is a bunch more money. And she works in a male dominated industry. And I was like, do you think any of your male colleagues wouldn't just say, at minimum, say, hey, Someone's coming here with a 25% bump. Let's just put that on the table. And then so she said it ended up that they ended up kinda making a promise to her that in six months or whatever, they'd make her whole to that amount or nine months. But, like, if she hadn't had that conversation, that bump would never have happened. And so I think you're right that we come to these negotiations in this negative I have always been like, oh, I hate negotiations. Oh, I hate sales. I find them so uncomfortable because I'm a people pleaser just like everyone else. But the truth is, it's a conversation. You want me, I want you. Like, now that I'm out of corporate, it's easier for me to say. But I do think it's like, you want my skills, I want this job, it could be a good fit, let's get to yes. But it's hard and I love also, I want to say I love the wins when I do coaching. At the beginning, I always say let's drop our wins in the chat. Let's celebrate those wins from small to big because Love it. We really do gloss over. Like, I will be thinking about the one negative thing that happened the whole month, and I've had, like, 30 other great things. And it is ironic that, you know, biologically, we haven't evolved past that, but that's okay. But I think it's really important that we're building our own neurons and building those new pathways that we're saying, hey. Actually, I had all of these amazing feedback from clients. I did a great speaking engagement. Like, all of these good things are happening and let alone our personal life. I do with my kids, the rose and thorn. And we say, okay, what's something good that happened? What's something not as good that happened? And we get into the habit of saying some things are good and some things are not as good. And that's okay. And we've layered in, a bud. So rose is something good, thorn is something bad, and a bud is something we're working on. And we all go around and say that because I think our kids also think that we're, like So good. Mythic heroes. And I'm, like, no. Mommy did something and she was really bad at it. And, like, mommy, like, mommy did this thing and she didn't work hard enough and it didn't go well. And next time she'll work harder, you know. But I think they they look at us and think that everything's easy and it's not, you know. That's such a great this is such a good reminder. I I think about that too with my son, like, how do I role model to him? You know, Sarah Blakely and Jesse Itzler, always talk about these too, like embracing and encouraging failure and risk. Because, you know, there's so much as, like, be careful or don't you know, when they're little, then also, you sort of wanna flip the switch and be like, go for it. Let's see what happens. What if you fail, but what if you don't? You know? So I love that that rose, thorn, bud analogy. It's great. And I'd love to ask you as a founder, what's been the hardest part about growing Peptalker? I mean, I think one thing that I that I'm grateful that I learned fairly early on was that everyone else is making it up too. Like, turns out no one's got their s**t totally together, unless you do, Kim, but no one that I've met has it totally together. So that was kind of freeing just to kind of be able to give myself grace and be like, yeah. It's fine. Like, you're figuring it out. You mucked this up. You did this well. Guess what? You'll probably have that tenfold over over the next year anyway. So I kind of love it, though. And one of my mantras is the the journey is the destination. And so that's been really helpful in just, like of course, we have goals and milestones that we're trying to hit in terms of impact of you know, we have 70,000 people in the community. We're trying to grow that to a hundred thousand by the end of the year. Like, of course, there's all these goals that we have, and, also, it's so much fun along the way. Like, what a privilege that I that I get to support people, you know, at some low moments and at some really high moments. Like, one of my clients recently, she was on, I don't know, like, maybe a quarter of a million dollars, and she just got a 7 figure job offer. Like, that is bananas insane. Right? Like, what? And, like, I'd get to be witness to that with her as part of our coaching. So it's kind of I mean, that's wish that happened every day, Kim. That's an outlier. But even so, it's like even, you know, clients that are getting $5,000 pay increases. That's amazing. I'm so thrilled for them. You know, we had another woman, and she she didn't think she would ever hit 6 figures in her entire life. All she wanted to do was hit a hundred thousand dollars, and I was like, we can get you there. It's very doable, with her skill set, and then within six months she did, which was cool, but the coolest thing slash not cool that was the situation in the first place, she was able to leave a domestic violence relationship because she had the money to do so, and so that's that's why I'm so obsessed with helping women get wealthy through pay rises and and new roles at work, is because money gives us power, choice, and whether that's a choice to invest, whether that's a choice to buy a house or to leave a bad relationship, like, that is game changing, you know? And so that's that's why I'm, like, so passionate about, yeah, money and women, and I just think it changes the world. And I I know it does. You know as well from the work you do. It's game changing. Absolutely. I've got the same. I help people, you know, speak more confidently on camera and promote themselves, their personal brand, and they're seeing more clients come in because they believe in their message and they believe in themselves. Absolutely. And then I know my last question for you. I have a lot of listeners here who work for themselves, and they're not necessarily in corporate anymore, but you have a business. So you use these negotiation skills. How can someone who's running their own business apply some of these negotiation lessons? Yeah. It's a great point, Kim. And so one of the frameworks that you can use, whether you're a professional in an organization or an entrepreneur, is having the www. So the wish, the want, and the walk. So knowing as an employee, like, what is my wish figure, what is my want figure, and what is my walk figure is the same thing if you have your own business. So for you, it's like, what is my wish, want, walk in terms of package prices or my speaker fees? So the wish is like, woah. I can't believe this is an option. I can't believe I'm getting paid that much money. And by the way, like, maybe spend a minute or so thinking about what is that wish figure for you, and then I want you to add tax at least. Right? So let's let's really shoot for the stars there. And then at the very far end of the other spectrum is the walk figure, which is like, I am not getting out of bed for that amount of money. It's not worth it. My time is better spent elsewhere. That's offensive. It doesn't value me. No. Now you might not quit straight away, but you're probably not gonna take it seriously long term. And then the want figure is a number that sits between those numbers somewhere, not necessarily right in the middle, but a number that's between the wish and the walk figure. And that's a number where you're like, you know what? This is, like, a really fair valuing of my time and expertise. I feel really great to give you this a 10% for that amount of money. Because that's the other thing. Like, you know, I have a team, and, of course, unfortunately, we do have a limited budget. And, also, I wanna pay people well because I don't want them to be looking for another job all the time. You know? Like, I don't want them to have one foot in, one foot out. So don't forget that bosses actually do wanna pay you well so that you're excited and so you're satisfied to commit to them. So I think that's the other thing. Like, again, just remembering the power that you have. Same thing as an entrepreneur, as a coach, or, you know, providing services to corporates like we do, or for you, helping people learn how to speak, like, there is a value in what you do. Right? Like, my cousin puts it, like, you have to cut checks to go faster in business, and I think that's true. Like, people wanna pay us to come in to run leadership programs because it takes stuff off their plate, and it achieves a goal in terms of retention and in terms of, you know, net promoter score for the business. Same for you. They wanna cut you a check because they wanna grow on Instagram or they wanna grow their speaking, and they just can't get out of their own way to do it themselves. So if the money that you're charging isn't high enough, they might not take it seriously. Right? Too high, you're gonna rule out all these clients. So figuring out what that number is, it feels fair, good, you know, but but also feels fair for both sides is, is the way that I would approach it. And also just candidly, you know, making sure that you can always get on a call with people. Sometimes when you're putting numbers in writing, people can get sticker shock versus you can talk them through it. You can get their nonverbal reactions. So if they go, oh my gosh, and their eyes light up, but as if they sort of lean and say, yeah. That seems fair. Straight away, you can see if you've priced it in the realm that that feels right for them. So nonverbal cues are really helpful for negotiations as well. I'm taking so many notes, by the way. I'm really I mean, if I'm look I'm looking down because I'm taking so many notes. I agree with all of those things. I have learned those things, and I think they're so amazing. Like, my husband used to work in consulting, and he's like, but you don't wanna work for that price. I'm like, yeah. You're right. He's like, then make it higher. And he's like, what would you be psyched about? I'm like, okay. Great. So he helped me price out some big corporate packages. I think there's a lot of conversation for women consultants, especially about proposals. First, so proposals take a while to write. You send it. You don't even know if they open it. Like, no. It's a waste of my time. And I'm like, if you wanna know what I what I cost, let's hop on the phone. It could take fifteen minutes. I'll take you through it, and then you're right. I can get a sense of, is this the right price? Is this too high for them? Can we figure out something else? But you send it into the ether. You don't even get the reaction. So you you put in the time Exactly. And you wasted your time, and you don't even get the reaction. I always feel like, this is my time. Like, if you wanna know what I charge, like, we we have ten minutes. Like, let's do ten minutes of both of our time is valuable, you know? So I think it's also, like, a respect of your own time because when you do send something on email, you don't even really get anything out of it because maybe they thought, that's fine, but, like, I got busy. I forgot. Or maybe they were like, woah. That's too high. And then you would have learned through the phone from their nonverbal cues that that's too high. Absolutely. And I think I think there's things you can do as well. I agree with you. Like, getting on a call is super value. And also as an entrepreneur, like, sometimes your time is the most valuable thing you have, and so there's ways you can triage for that. Right? So for for example, we have a a mastermind community. The price is listed on the website. It's very transparent. It's 97 or a hundred $97 a month. Right? So it's very transparent. People that are applying to work with our executive coaches, me or my team, like, when they go through the application form, it explicitly says it's a 4 figure a month investment. So, like, people know I'm gonna get on this call because I can afford that, and I wanna invest that, or I'm not gonna bother because that's out of my price range. And so there's ways you can triage as well. So, for example, you might put in your speaking fee, you know, fees from $5,000. So then at least, you know, that folks are getting on the call with the presumption that they have around at least that amount of money. Right? You can you can sort of or maybe maybe your fees are more than $50,000, whatever the case may be. A hundred million dollars is my fee. Listen. A very large author and speaker who's just come out with a new book, who shall remain nameless, is repped by my speaking agent as well, and her fee is $250,000 plus a private jet. Good for her. So there you go. Something for us all to aspire to. Good for her. Good for her. Alright, Maggie. This is amazing. I feel like I I personally have so many notes. I'm like, this quote. This quote. This has been I'm delighted, Katie. So full of nuggets? How can people connect with Pep Talk Her, you, all of the things? Where should they find you? Yeah. Well, I mean, listen. Like most folks, I'm lurking on Instagram for for longer during the day than I care to admit. So say hi, Pep Talk Her. I'm on I'm on LinkedIn, Maggie Palmer. You can find me there. And then, yeah, folks are looking for a community for, like, accountability and momentum around their professional growth, whether they're entrepreneurs or professionals. That's what we do in our mastermind community. So you can just head to peptalkher.com forward slash join. And then, yeah, we would love to love to connect with people. I love I love your podcast. We've been following each other for years, live down the road. Yeah. So it's it's so nice to to be be on the air with you. What a treat. Me too. Thank you so much, Maggie. Yeah. Pleasure. Thanks, Kim. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to exit the grind and enter success on your own terms. This is the exit interview with Kim Rick Rittberg. Don't forget to grab my free download, how to grow your business with amazing video at kimrittberg.com and linked out in the show notes. I love to hear your feedback. Make sure to submit to me what you learned from the show and how you're crushing it on your own terms. Connect with me on Instagram or LinkedIn at Kim Rittberg, r I t t b e r g. And this show is edited by Jillian Grover and produced by Henry Street Media. I'm your host and executive producer, Kim Rittberg.
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