Transcript
Below decks, Captain Lee, listen to my new podcast, Salty with Captain Lee. Don't you mean our podcast? Yeah, I guess I do anyhow. Listen to Soldi with Captain Lee, co-hosted by my assistant Sam, and we will be talking about the latest pop culture news and all the gossip every week. So does this mean we have to talk, fire ourselves about ourselves, or at least have some guests on and know? I find myself pretty interesting, but yeah, we can have some guests on some of our reality TV friends and some stars. Works for me. Listen to Saltine now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 330 of The True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast, I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me. How are you? I'm doing good about yourself. I'm doing very well. I said on T that I'm having a great week. That's good. It's a great week, and I don't always say that. I can always say it can't, but I'm being honest now. Well, I'm glad you're being honest. Speaking of T Cat, we have our 350F episode out right now and it's on Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer. Very good. Yeah, it's a case that a lot of people have asked us to do over the years, and so we picked it for the big three five. Oh yeah. And on page on what we do, we played a new game called the Gimme Movie Game. Yeah, it was very entertaining. You knock it out of the ballpark now you did not, but it involved two of your favorite things movies and money. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. Let's go ahead and give our patron shout outs. We had Sophia ready. Hey, Sophia, Abigail Blom. Hey, thanks, Abigail. Suzanne Carter, what's going on, Suzanne? Crazy R. Kelly Kelly. Aaron H. Appreciate that Iran. A Ron. Corey Otunba. What's going on, Gordy? Mary Gordon. Hey, Mary. Wanda Addis is Wanda. Stacy Monk. Well, hi Stacy. Ibo Ibo can't forget IBO Gaby Scully. Hey, Gaby. Robbie Brown. What's happenin? Robbie. Holly Burgess. Holly, Kathleen. Fred Schaefer. Kathleen. Anthony Valentine. Valentine Kitty Cat was up. Giddy Harley. Hey, Holly. And last but not least, ash tastic and Pete's jumped down to our highest level. What a combo ash tastic in a pitch, and I really have to say that first one slowly exactly as to not mess it up. And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Tracy Heather. Thank you, Tracy. Yeah, thanks for all the new support to continued support. We have a couple of great PayPal donations from McCabe's costume. Thinks McCabe's and George Skiba appreciate that, George. Yeah, thanks to everyone. Hi, buddy. Are you ready to get into this 330 an episode of True Crime All the time unsolved? It's a big number. You know that? Three thirty. Yeah, yeah, three fifty was the big number. We talked about that on T kept us together. And what do you have? Six eighty. And you're almost as good as me and Matt. Almost. We are talking about the unsolved murder of Beverly Jay Potter met in February 1987. The young mother named Beverly Jay Potter Mense was brutally murdered inside her own home. Her two year old son witnessed the murder, but all he could say was that a man came inside and hurt his mother. Investigators were stumped. Beverly Jay had no known enemies, and it seemed like all the initial suspects had an alibi. Investigators thought that the killer was drawn to her house because of a classified that she had recently placed in the local paper. Beverly Jay Potter Mintz was born on December 5th, 1963. Everyone who knew her called her J. J married William Allen Mans on November 26, 1982, according to Find a Grave. They had two children together. Their oldest, B.J., was four years old when his mother was killed and their youngest, Andrew, was almost two. Just toddlers. Yeah, very, very small. Jay and William separated in 1986. She lived in a house in Leland, North Carolina suburb of Wilmington. Jay was working as a waitress at a restaurant in Wilmington and had recently started dating again. She was close with her family, especially her sister, Jill. As an adult, Jill lived in Colorado, but she and Jay tried to talk as often as they could. It was expensive to make long distance calls back then, so they wrote letters to each other. Man, how time has changed? I know. I don't even know how many people will remember that, that it actually was super expensive. Yeah, to call someone outside of your area code. I mean, if you think about it, if things were still that way today, there's a good percentage of relationships that would not exist. Oh yeah, because there's no way they could write. No one is going to have a relationship through snail mail or occasionally having a phone conversation, you know, when everybody's used to instant messaging today. Well, and with some cell phone plans, almost all of them im just you just make a call. Yeah. You don't worry about the cost because there is not exactly. And even that is change. I remember, you know, cell phones back in the. Dave's like, I think at one time I had 30 minutes a month or something like that, 37 times. And you can only use them during certain times or they cost extra. I mean, it's just amazing, Jill told Dateline. She was kindhearted and a good person and loved her kids. I can't think of anyone who didn't like her. Why someone would want to do this to her is unimaginable. And don't we ask that question a lot? Why do killers hurt these innocent people? Well, we ask it a lot, but also the families of these victims ask that question as well. I mean, her sister saying, this is a good person. She was nice to everyone. She didn't have enemies. Why would someone want to kill her and start of struggle with? Because I think you're reaching for a reason, right? You want to know. There had to be a reason. Surely someone didn't do this just because what we've talked about it many times, but a lot of families have said right. The not knowing is one of the hardest parts, whether that's not knowing where a person is, if they've disappeared or not knowing who murdered their loved one or why it happened. I think those are all tough things to to grapple with. Jay was also close with her cousin, Renee Braswell. They grew up together in Leland. Renee told Dateline that Jay was quiet and shy, but her personality came out around people who knew her. She was living in Dallas at the time. Jay was murdered, but she visited often. She mentioned that her biggest regret was not answering a phone call from Jay. The day before she was killed. And so there's two things there for me. One is that I've known a lot of people who were very quiet and shy. Yeah, until they either got to know you or they got to know the group that they were in, and then they you can kind of see their personality come out. Yeah, they start opening up. Yeah. And I do think there are a lot of people like that. And then the second one is this regret slash guilt that we often talk about in episodes, whether it's you know what you said to someone before they left the house? Yeah. And they ultimately were murdered or, you know, died in an accident. Those are your last words, and they weren't kind. No, you're going to have regret. They're going to haunt you. You know, her friend is saying she didn't answer a phone call, and then that would have been her last chance to talk to Jay before she was murdered. Yeah, I get that. You're going to have to live with that. But all of that stuff is routine that happens all the time. It does. It's just that most of us, when we do those things, don't have someone that dies. Yeah, right after whatever it is, we can't pick up the phone or we're not home to answer the phone or we get in a fight with someone you know, have a spat. I mean, you call me an a*****e, but every time I leave here, but I kill, you know, I still keep coming back. You sure you worry about it after I leave. But if you didn't, I would feel really bad about it, as you should. Laura Hobbs, Jay's aunt, told WWE TV that Jay was real shy. She was real, sweet, pretty. She was beautiful. She also said that she was a great mother and she loved her boy. So like we often hear, you know, people saying just great things about a person, you know, who is murdered. And I used to say, Well, what else are people going to say? They're not going to badmouth Ray? A murder victim? But in a few episodes we've had fairly recently, we have seen where people have said less than flattering things about people who have been murdered or have gone missing a few months before the murder. Jay's cousin, Angela, and her young daughter moved in with her. Angel said that Jay was receiving unwanted attention from men. Well, some men just don't get the hint. No. And I think this is something that a lot of women have to deal with. You know, unwanted attention, unwanted advances, men trying to get them to go out with them, they won't leave them alone. Like you said, they don't get the hand. They won't take no for an answer, according to Dateline. One man wrote, I love you, Jay in their gravel driveway. Another man left a red rose for her at the restaurant she worked at. Now, nothing criminal here. But again, what does unwanted attention mean? And I think there are definitely varying levels right from someone's asked me out multiple times. Ms. To all the way up to stalker type behavior. You know, writing, I love you and gravel. It's up there. There could be viewed that way. Yeah, good. We don't know what else that person did, but it was said that Jay was always kind to these men. Shortly before her murder, Jay placed a classified ad in local paper to advertise a waterbed. She wanted to sell. The paper was giving away one free ad per customer per week. So what Jay did was she placed one ad using her phone number. But the waterbed didn't sell quickly, so she placed another ad using her mother, Laurene number, so that she could get a second free at very smart. Hey, you know, game the system a little bit. I get it. It also kind of tells you what time we're in. Yeah, I don't know how many people use the paper anymore. The place I know they still probably have classified ads, but there are so many avenues now. Every Facebook market. Yeah, every, you know, seems like every local town has their own marketplace or Facebook thing or or whatever there is. Waterbed XCOM No J started receiving strange and harassing calls from unidentified men after she placed the at. These calls were sexual in nature. According to Deadline, both Jay and Angela were victims of the harassment, depending on who answered the phone. And to me, that was always the danger of placing an ad because most likely you were going to have to give out your telephone number. Yeah, you're opening yourself up somewhat, whereas today you can make a Gmail dot com email that really has very little connection to you whatsoever and converse back and forth with a prospective buyer. That way, yeah. Now, at some point, yes, that person is probably going to want to come see the item, but you're not going to be getting calls with heavy breathing and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm just wondering what drove the, you know, did they just dial the number to see if it was a female or male? Or were they thinking because it said, Waterbed, that it was their opportunity to make sexual harassment kind of calls? I don't know. Are you asking me to get in the mind of some of these very strange, perverted individuals because it's really hard to? I know I was just making that attempt. I don't. I don't know why most of the people that we talk about do what they do now. Is this before caller ID? Because I don't actually remember when Caller ID came around. I think it was after. Really? Yeah. So maybe she didn't have Caller ID, or maybe she did, and they just put up with the calls as opposed to reporting them. I don't know. Or maybe they did the star or something, something to block their number. A week before Jay was killed, Angela noticed that she seemed upset. Jay told her she had a dream about a stranger trying to kill her. Angela told Dateline after she was killed, I couldn't shake what she said. It's like she knew something was about to happen. That's freaky. It is. It's a little spine tingling because it's almost as if she had a premonition foreshadowing. And I know somebody I can, you know, they they foresee some things, but it's not like this. And it's scary to think of someone said, Man, I had this dream last night that a stranger killed me and was that somebody has dreams a lot that are pretty close to real life. You'd have to be like, you've gone in lockdown down for a while. Well, my wife has the the strangest dreams of anyone I know. Yeah. I mean, they are so far out there from, you know, running up a hill, people chasing her, people trying to get her. Sometimes it's me. And then she wakes up. The next morning, she's ticked off at me, mad at you. If any of her dreams came true, we'd be in bizarro land. Jay Potter Metz was murdered on February 23rd, 1987. She was just 23 years old, and it was the day before Andrew second birthday. Andrew was home with Jay that day, but B.J. was visiting his grandmother. Jay was busy planning Andrew's birthday party and preparing for family to visit her mother. Laurene called her around 9:40, and she told Jay that a man had called her about the water bet it was coming to her house that day to look at it, and potentially by Jay told Lorraine that she had actually sold the bed that morning. However, Lorene didn't take down the man's contact information, and she had. Already given him directions to GAO's house. She told Jay that when the man showed up, she would need to tell him she'd already sold the bat. Jay said she would take care of it. I think anytime a stranger comes, you would like for somebody else to be home with you. Yeah, I think that would be ideal. But can that always be the case? And I would say no begins. I just kind of want to look at this on the surface, right, as you look at what's going on. It doesn't seem to be that big a deal. You're trying to sell a waterbed. You put an ad in the paper. You've already sold the waterbed. Somebody is coming by to look at it. And when they get there, you're going to tell them, Hey, I'm sorry for the mix up, but I already sold it. And that will be the end of it. Yeah. Now, obviously, we know that's not going to be the case. Could you imagine being so upset that someone sold the waterbed after you drove how long it took to get there that you would want to kill them? No, and we'll talk about it, but I doubt that's the way that this went down. But I think what's heartbreaking here is that this was Lorraine's last conversation with her daughter. And again, going back to what we talked about, this is something that you see in a lot of cases, you have no idea when you're having what is probably a very routine conversation that this is the last time you're going to talk to someone. Right? Maureen stopped by the house shortly afternoon to see if Jay needed help preparing for the birthday party. She found her daughter's body inside her home and witnessed an extremely disturbing crime scene. She was first tipped off that something was wrong because Jay's door was unlocked and this was not typical of her. She was the type of person who almost always kept the door locked. So Loriene let herself into the house. The first thing she heard was her grandson crack. The sound was coming from a back bedroom when she entered Jay's bedroom. She found her body on the bed, and we talk a lot about things that are unimaginable. And you know, for me, this is just at the top of the list to find your child's dead body. Horrific. It just it breaks my heart to think about it. In 2014, Jay's cousin, Rene Braswell, spoke with The Huffington Post about what Loriene saw that day. She said that she saw a pillowcase on Jay's head. Her first action was to remove the pillowcase to try to help her, but she saw that Jay's throat had been slashed. In 2014, criminal investigative psychologist Dr. Maurice Godwin was granted access to the police files. He described the crime scene to the Huffington Post, saying her hands had been tied behind her back in a pillowcase covered her face when her mom removed the pillowcase. She saw her daughter's throat had been cut so deeply that her head was nearly severed from her body. She had also been stabbed multiple times and my thought is Gibbs. From an investigative perspective, you would like it if no one disturbed the crime scene or for sure. But how can you ask that of a parent? There's no way. There's no way that you're not going to take that pillowcase off and see if there's something that you can do to help your child now. She quickly realized that there was nothing that could be done. But you can't fault her for taking that pillowcase off at all. No, no. I mean, and then think about after that seeing that, you know, that's the vision locked in her head forever. Well, and so go back to the last phone call. Are you ever going to forget every my new detail of that last phone call? My thought is no. Are you ever going to forget that image of seeing your daughter in that way? And I would say, you're not going to be able to know. And on top of that, if you think that the person that did this was the person you gave the address to to go to your daughter's house, that's going to linger right in there with the rest of it. Yeah. So then you get into guilt. And yeah, and all that. Jay had been stabbed eight times. The killer had tied her hands with the nylon rope. She had also been raped. Andrew was found unharmed near his mother's body. A woman named Jenny Mense, no relation to Jay called the police when Lorraine ran to her door with her grandson in her arms, screaming for help. Former Brunswick County Sheriff John. On Carr, Davis told news outlets that Jay was killed sometime between 10 a.m. and noon. Dr. Morris Godwin noted that the killer entered through a rear door. There were no signs of forced entry inside the house. Investigators found the newspaper clipping of the ad Jay had put out for the waterbed. The listing was circled. Lt Israel West from the Brunswick County Sheriff's Office told Dateline that investigators believe the killer left this clipping behind. Was it the first person who bought the bed and eventually came back later after seeing her and seeing the situation at the house? Or was it the person that called her mom and her mom gave that individual the address? Or was it an either or excuse? That's right. You know, things that will have to to keep in our heads as we go through this case. But if the investigators are right and the killer left behind this circled classify that it would kind of lead you in the direction of believing that it's one of the other one of these two individuals. Because if not, then you're dealing with a situation where the killer was someone else but left the ad to throw the police off. Yeah, which is a possibility. 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Angie has over 20 years of home service experience, and they've combined it with new tools to simplify the whole process. Bring them your project online or with the engine to answer a few questions, and Angie can handle the rest from start to finish or help you compare quotes from multiple pros and connect instantly. And all of that means you can take care of just about any home project in just a few taps. Because when it comes to getting the most out of your home, you can do this when you angie that. Download the free Angie Mobile app today or visit Angie dot com. That's eight in G'Kar Deadly Nightmares. The podcast for My ID tells the real stories of people stalked by serial killers and attack on every episode. Survivor share the chilling moments they knew their lives were in danger and how they managed to escape their attack. Investigators and family members close to the victims discuss the disturbing details of each case and exactly how they happened. These cases are the stuff of nightmares, but they've happened in real life to real people. You'll never drive alone at night again. So we wanted to tell you about deadly nightmares because we think you'll want to add it to your list. This is a great true crime podcast, and you get to hear from those very close to the case, and I always think that that's an interesting aspect. I especially recommend when a stranger knocks. This episode is about 36 year old Debra Brown, who's trying to get a fresh start and relocates with her children from New York to Maine. She gets a new job and a new boyfriend, and everything seems to be going great until one night when a knock on the door changes her life forever. Got to check that one out. So listen to deadly nightmares wherever you listen to your podcasts. Andrew witnessed his mother's murder, but because of his young age, he couldn't give much information. Years later, Lorraine told the news outlet. All he could tell me is mean man hurt, mommy, mommy cry. He didn't know she was dead. He thought she was coming back, and that is enough to break your heart. It is. It's it's very sad. Renee Braswell said that Jay's mom questioned Andrew about to kill her. Andrew remembered hearing someone knock on the door. He said that his mother looked through the peephole and didn't see anyone. She opened the door and a man came inside. Andrew described him as a white male and said the killer was a stranger. So obviously I don't think that Andrew gave his answers the way that I just verbalized them. Yeah, of course. And I think there was assistance. Yes. And her mom was able to piece all of this together from what she got from Andrew. But this is good information from a two year old. Maybe Andrew didn't know this person or could remember this person ever at their house, but maybe she did. She did. Yeah, and that that is a is a very good point. Two year olds have a pretty limited pool of people that they're familiar with. Yeah. And I'm guessing that Jay probably didn't introduce the kids to certain people right away anyway. No. Most single mothers don't. Because, you know, if you go out on the date, there's no need right till you have. The relationship has progressed to a certain point. I think that's pretty natural. Jay's family was both shocked and devastated when they learned what happened. They were supposed to be celebrating Andrew's birthday, but now they had to come together to cope with the loss of his mother. For example, Jill was traveling from her home in Colorado to North Carolina to attend the birthday party. She found out what happened once she arrived in North Carolina. So heartbreak all around for the family. Sure. And then, you know, kind of think of Andrew as he gets older and what's going to happen every time his birthday rolls around, he's going to be reminded of the murder of his mom. Yeah, it's not going to be fun times for him. No. The family thought Jay's killer would be apprehended quickly. Rene Braswell said, as quoted by Dateline, I just knew they would catch whoever did this right away. I must have called 10 times that day. The hours became days. The days became weeks and years. And before we knew it, 34 years had passed and still no answers. Well, that's tough. It's a long time. It is. And she said it very eloquently. Right. Hours become days. Days become weeks. Weeks become years. And the next thing you know, it's 34 years and they still don't have the answer. And, you know, further ahead in the case, the family told Dateline they believe that the killer would do the same thing to another woman. Rene said it all seemed very calculated. He knew what he was doing. I just fear he did it again. And after all these years, who knows how many more times this happened? You know, we talked about that this week on true crime all the time. We talked about the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway. I'm sure there are people who murder once and for whatever reason, never do it again. Yeah, but unless they're caught, I don't know if that's the norm. And I would throw sexual assault in there as well. Yeah, I feel as though if these individuals are not caught, then most likely they will probably go on to do it again. Yeah. You know, we've done a few cases. I can think of one that we did in the Dayton area unsolved, where the killer used classifieds. Mm hmm. To seek out their victims? Yeah. And there have been many. I mean, there is a classified killer. Yeah, there have been a number of cases back in the day where killers use classifieds. It's kind of like my theory on why serial killers choose sex workers as often as they do. Part of it is because they're able to get those individuals into their car easier than they would be other people. Yeah. So with a classified, it's kind of the same theory. You really have no reason to go to a person's house unsolicited. But if they're advertising something for sale, well. There's you're in. Yeah, they're inviting you in at that point. And so does a person just answer a lot of different classifieds until they find that situation that they're looking for? Yeah, it's a strong possibility, right? Because you're calling up the it's a female, you know, maybe they have something that would require two people to left and you say, you know, is your spouse or boyfriend going to be there to help me get it in my vehicle? Oh no, it's just me. Right? So or they go, look at it first. Yeah, assess, assess the situation and then come back later. All scary stuff. At first, investigators thought the attacker could be someone close to J. They quickly ruled out her estranged husband, William, because he was in the military and was stationed in Germany at the time of the murder. And that's a pretty good alibi. It's a pretty solid, you know, I sometimes really worry about some of these alibis that clear people because we often hear that much later. Well, wasn't really exactly the alibi that it was thought to have been right. Pretty tough when you're in the military, especially to just leave Germany and go to North Carolina. Yeah, fly back home without the military knowing or having a record of it and all that. Now does that mean you couldn't hire somebody to do it? No. Obviously, it doesn't mean that they also ruled out a local plumber and a local restaurant owner whom J. Had recently started dating. Several other suspects were dismissed. The police were pretty stumped because they just couldn't figure out anyone who really had a motive to kill J. We said it right. She was the the kind of woman who really had no enemies. Her family said that, yeah, but sometimes you don't have to have a reason for someone to kill you. What? But those aren't those tough? Sure. Right. When you can't figure out the motive, when it's just random? Yeah, those are very hard cases to solve. And you think about how she was killed, right? Very viciously, her neck was slashed, almost to the point where it went all the way through. Yeah, it was almost seven. It's a lot of anger to me. And then they had the pillow case over her face. Why is that? Yeah. I mean, some of that does kind of make you quickly think that it is someone who knew her. Yeah, who had a grudge against her or something like that. So I think investigators thought the killer, you know, was most likely a stranger. And probably the biggest piece of evidence that supported that theory was the fact that Andrew was left alive and unharmed. He also said to Jay's mom that the person was a stranger. Investigators suspected the killer was not worried about being identified, so he left the child alone. Or, like we said, it could have been somebody she knew that was never introduced to Andrew. So but I get your thinking. Leland was considered a small, safe town, but the entire community was shaken up by the murder. The theory that a complete Stranger Energy's home and brutally murdered the young woman was especially disturbing. One individual told the Star News It sort of took our innocence. Our safety away sure did, and we hear that in so many cases, especially in small towns that don't experience a lot of murders. You have a big headline grabbing murder in a small town, and it forever changes that town. Yeah. According to former Sheriff John Carr Davis, gun sales in Leland increased by 300 percent after Jay was murdered. He told The Huffington Post in 2014 It completely baffled us. We didn't have much crime scene evidence. The child was so young that he wasn't able to offer many details about who had what. And like I said, you're not going to get a lot from it. Most two year olds know you're just not, and it doesn't surprise me that gun sales skyrocketed. You see that a lot you do after these types of cases. Jay's case went cold when none of the potential leads panned out. Many years passed and the family received no answers, despite the amount of work investigators put into the case. The two boys were raised by JJ's parents. Lauren was traumatized by the loss of her daughter and from witnessing the crime scene. What a tragedy on so many levels. Yeah. You know this 23 year old young mother lost her life. That's a tragedy. These two boys lost their mother. That's a tragic. Everything that the family has to deal with, I mean, it's just tragedy all the way around. Yeah, and I don't think there's enough medication out there. If I seen something like that for me to ever get a good night's sleep, it would be rough. No doubt about it. Laura Hobbs, Laureen sister, told WWE TV that she talked about the murder every day for about five years. She eventually told her sister, Lorraine, You're going to have to forgive that person. Me and I don't know. I hear people talk about forgiveness, and I've heard some victims, moms and dads come out and say that they forgave the individual. I just don't think I ever could. Yeah, there are some people who can do it and some people who can't. And I do feel like personally, I'm the type of person who would have a real hard time with. Yeah. I'm not saying that I have to go all a time to kill like Samuel Jackson did in that movie and see, you know, my vengeance or, you know, anything like that, but to forgive. I just think that takes a level of strength. I don't know what the right word is that I probably don't have. I don't think a lot of people do. Laura continued by saying she looked at me horrified. I said, You've got to forgive. I said, he's not going to change. I said, You have to forgive yourself. You have to forgive for yourself. A year later, Lorraine told her I forgave him, and I feel like a weight has been lifted off of me, and I'm sure that is true. You know, that statement that her sister made you have to forgive for yourself absolutely is probably true, if not whether. Yeah, that's the question, whether or not you can do it. By 1998, detectives were able to use new forensic testing that was not available back in 1987. They were hopeful that scientific advances would help them solve the case. But obviously we've said it right. Unfortunately, GAO's case remains unsolved right to this day. GAO's mother, speaking with the morning star of Wilmington, said that coping with the loss of Jett had been even harder for the family since her husband, William died in 1993. She told the paper. Sometimes you have to take what you got and go with it, even when you can't understand it. I do know that hate and resentment can only hurt yourself, so I do think she's kind of backing that forgiveness is the better path. Deal. Yeah, I understand it. I mean, it makes sense to me. I just wonder how hard it is to pull yourself up and do that, bury her. That's why I think I use the word strength because I do think it would take strength, not physical strength, but like, yeah, internal fortitude, type, strength. But I think if you can't, I can see how it would just eat you up on the inside. Yes, according to Find a Gray, William Allen Mintz died on September 8th, 1993. He was only twenty nine years old. His find a grave profile states that he died from carbon monoxide asphyxiation, so obviously he decided to end his life. That's what it sounds like to me. In 1995, Lorraine joined a group called Justice for Citizens, a support group for victims families. The group was formed by a woman named Birdie Frank, whose teen daughter was murdered in 1994. This was the first support group in Brunswick County, North Carolina. Up to 60 people attended the meetings, where members discuss pending legislation on victims rights and gave families space to talk. Lorraine was able to support other parents whose children were murdered and in some cases watched their killers face justice. She hoped that she would get to go to court one day to see her daughter's killer convicted. I mean, I think that's great support. I think families need it. And as we've talked about before, you know who else knows better what you're going through than someone who is either already gone through it or is still currently going through? Yes. One thing to just give support as somebody, it's never been through it, but you can't really say, I know what you're going through. You can say it, but it doesn't really resonate. No, it doesn't mean the same thing. But I wonder how hard this was for Jay's mother because the case is still unsolved, right? She's helping all these other people, which is an amazing thing. But she's also seeing some of these other victims family members get justice. Yeah, and she's not getting it. So you think it could be therapeutic, but also tough, tough. But at the same time? Yeah, I absolutely do. She told The Sun News in 2001. Birdie is a great help. Before I had no support, just my family. She said the group helped boost her spirits. In contrast, she told The Sun News that her husband had lost all hope the Jays killer would be caught. Lorraine maintained a sense of hope, saying Someone has to come forward. That's what it needs to take. And it almost sounds like a broken record because it comes out in all these unsolved episodes. But it is true someone's going to have to come forward and say, I know this or I saw this or whatever that bombshell is that that kind of cracks the thing wide open. We even talked about that on the Gary Ridgway T Kat episode this week. Yeah, because someone made the decision to come forward in February 2000, J Story was featured in USA Today. After the article was released, hundreds of law enforcement officers called the Brunswick County Sheriff's Office to inform them they had a similar murder case. Potential connections were investigated, but a killer was not identified, according to the USA Today article. The killer knocked rather than broken. He brought gloves, a rope and a knife, and he took the murder weapon with it. The killer also entered and exited the home quickly without anyone noticing him. J's house was located on a main road and people were out and about in her neighborhood. According to Dateline, a roofing crew working across the street from Jay's house didn't notice anything suspicious on the morning of February 23rd, 1987. Yeah, but are you really paying attention to? Everything going on when you're working, if you're walking up and down the, you know, the neighborhood. Do you really see everything? I don't know. I don't think you can say you see everything. No, you. You don't see everything. And somebody knocking on someone's front door. Is that going to really register? Probably not. Yeah. But my thought is, wouldn't the killer have to have been covered in some blood? I mean, not to get gruesome, but when you slash somebody's neck and sever what was probably both carotid arteries all the way down to the spine, that is going to be a massive amount of blood spur. Yeah, it is. I mean, unless he took his clothes off when he was raping her. And yeah, there are some, some variations. But. But I think if he did enter and exit very, very quickly. I don't know. And that's part of the mystery of this case. Or yeah. Investigators didn't find the murder weapon or any prints. And like we said earlier, they really still have not established a clear motive. However, they did find DNA evidence at the scene. DNA eliminated suspects and persons of interest, but investigators did not find a match in the case went cold. And that is always the problem with DNA. It's great for eliminating suspects, and it's great if you're offender's DNA profile is in a database somewhere. But if it's not, it's really not worth much. No, not at that time. But you could also say, you know what? It saves the police a lot of legwork, continuing to chase down something that's not viable anymore. And also, when I say, you know, it's not worth much, I'm talking about the time period of that we're talking about in the case. Yeah, today, and I'm sure we may expand on it further later on. That DNA is worth a lot more than it was back then. For sure, even if there is still no match in the database because, you know, now we're into this genetic genealogy staff and DNA has been is being used and in a lot of different ways. And as these databases grow, potentially you're going to hit get a hit. Oh, the person could enter the database. Sure. Or their family member could, which is a more probable. And that's what we're finding today that is is helping to solve a lot of cases. In 2006, investigators re-examined the case and resubmitted DNA samples for testing. All persons of interest were once again cleared. So I mean, they're doing the work. You have to say that for sure. They're just not getting the results they they're looking for. In 2007, Lorraine did an interview with the news outlet Debbie. She said, I can't even explain how bad it's been. I can't explain how bad it was the day I found her either. It broke my heart. I get it. Yeah, there's no words to really express how bad that that was and probably still is. I don't know if I could even ask her, Hey, how do you feel that day? I just don't think I can even ask that question to her. Well, I mean, why would you? Yeah. Because it's not a question that's easily answered, I guess, according to Jay's sister, Jill Watts. Lorraine died of a heart attack a few months after her 2000 interview. She was 63 years old. She said that her mom felt guilty for giving the caller directions to Jay's house. She spent the rest of her life trying to find the killer. Jill told Dateline she lived with so much pain and guilt for the rest of her life. Her heart was broken. I bet it was. And you wonder what effect that had on her life span? Oh, I think it had to reduce her lifespan. That stress that guilt and stresses is rough on you. She also said that Lorraine planned to stop at the house earlier that morning, but didn't. She always said that if she had gone by there earlier, maybe she could have deterred the killer. She thought maybe things would have turned out differently. So again, like we see in all these cases, it's the what ifs, right? What if I had done this? What if I had gone there earlier like I planned to do? Could I have stopped this really bad thing from happening? Yeah, there's what else will haunt you forever? Jay's father, William Ponder, died in 2016. In 2014, The Huffington Post spoke with Tony Cummings from the State Bureau of Investigation, who was. Retired at that point. He said that investigators believe the suspect is the person who inquired about the water bit and if first. I really struggle with this because technically, if you think about it, there were two people who inquired about the water bed. One person ended up buying it. Not I don't know if they ever came forward. Maybe they did. I never saw that in the research, but my assumption is here that he's talking about the second person that was given directions to Jay's house. I don't know that for sure, but that I'm taking it that way. I am, too. Cummings said that he did not think the killer was methodical or spend a lot of time planning the murder. Criminal investigative psychologist Maurice Godwin, though, disagree. He told The Huffington Post I believe the individual had been stalking her. The person was comfortable watching the house and going in. He knew there was not an adult male in the home, so he had to be watching. The newspaper ad could be a ruse left at the crime scene to taunt investigators. And I think either one of these theories could be true. Yeah, the person could have been stalking. Jay could have known beforehand that nobody else was going to be there besides, you know, two year old Andrew or the person could have stopped by, walked in the house and immediately assessed the situation or how it could have been one of the roofers. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we really we really don't know. Yeah. Rene Braswell brought up the strange phone calls Jay received before she was killed. She noted that Jay received the calls after she got home, and the caller always hung up. This later made them think someone was watching her. Now that does add an element to it. But we said she was getting a lot of unwanted attention. Yes, she was. So it's absolutely possible that the two things are separate. She could have had someone, you know, who was enamored with her and for whatever reason, was calling and hanging up but didn't kill her. And the killer was somebody completely different. Yeah. Or it could have been the killer who was stalking her, watching her, calling her and hanging up and then ultimately struck. Renee also said that it becomes difficult to wait for answers as more time passes. The only thing that kept Jay's mom going as long as she did was her grandchildren. She adopted them and could talk and look at them and always see her daughter in their faces. They were a blessing to her. But now she's gone. It's up to us now to make sure the case stays in the spotlight, and every year we think this is the year it will be solved, but nothing happens. It's devastating, and we wanted to come to an end. And I think these types of quotes are very important to read from the family members because it really gives you some sort of sense of just how devastating this stuff really is on the family. You go back to ours, turn in the days, days, turn into weeks, weeks turn, then the months and years. And I think that's what it's like, especially when you have these very old unsolved cases and the families have had to live with this for, you know, 30 plus year. Yeah. Long time Lieutenant Israel West has been working the case since 2016. He told Dateline that a number of people have been questioned, but there is no evidence connecting anyone in particular to the murder. DNA was collected from the crime scene, and he hopes this will one day lead to answers. There are persons of interest in the case, but no one's name has been made public. In 2018, civilian investigative specialist Jim Westbrook from the Brunswick County Sheriff's Office spoke with WWE TV and said the detectives hoped new technology could lead to answers. Thirty years later, civilian investigative specialist Woody Kuki said they had nineteen thousand pages of investigative work and that they had some suspects but could not disclose any information about them. When asked if there were any new developments in the case, he said they had new technology and were working with the lab that does phenotyping. Civilian investigative specialist Mary Don Court explained that a lab can take DNA and create a facial approximation of what a suspect looks like. That's important stuff it is, and we've talked about it before. It's amazing stuff. So between that between. Mean, some of the genetic genealogy in the fact that they do have some persons of interest, right, you would have to say for as old as this case is, there's a really good chance that technology is going to solve. Yeah, yeah. I kind of feel the same way now. If we were sitting here and saying they have no DNA, right? We'd be back to the old line. Someone's going to have to come forward and spill the beans. But you don't have to have that if you have DNA. It also seems impressive that they have 19000 pages. Well, it has been 30 some years. Yeah, but at least it shows you that they haven't just been sitting, not doing anything on this case. She also mentioned that they were doing further DNA testing within in that system. And this has come up in a lot of cases recently. In July 2018, the Brunswick County Sheriff's Office purchased the name vac system, which was described as a giant vacuum cleaner. Don Cord explained They went down the piece and it just sucks up everything. So it pulls out far more DNA than the old method of just swab and come up because apparently it's very expensive and not all jurisdictions can afford one, right? But you know, if you think about some cases where they have not been able to get enough to create a profile, well, maybe this EM back system can where the swab was unable to. They were waiting on the results to come back from the state crime lab. But as of 2023, there are no new updates regarding the DNA testing. All we know is that the case is still open. It's been over 30 years since Jay Potter Mintz was killed and her murder remains unsolved. Investigators in Jay's family hold out hope that in Vance Munson in DNA technology will finally lead to answers, as we have seen numerous times with cases that are decades old. We're seeing it all the time, and this, to me, is a case that has all the elements of one that can be solved using all these different types of new DNA technology. Yeah, I think you have to feel good about it. You really do. Because let's face it, there are a lot of cases that at the end, when we look at everything they have, there's not a lot of hope there because they just don't have anything that the new technology could even you. Yeah, but that's not the case in this one. No. And kudos to the team for collecting all the stuff they collected and preserving it. So when from the 1980s, some of the technology did come around, it was they had things there to use. The people involved in the case also hope that one day someone will come forward with the information they need to find the killer. Whether the killer is alive or dead, the family deserves answers. I always believe that anyone with information that could help solve the case can call Lieutenant Israel West with the Brunswick County Sheriff's Office at nine one zero two five three two seven seven seven. You can also contact Dr. Maurice Godwin at nine one zero six seven zero two four or five zero. He's working on behalf of the Potter family. So some good resources there. Yeah. And I think, as you know, we wrap this one up. Like I said before, I mean, to me, there is a lot of potential for this one to be solved. I always think everything is solvable, right? It's just some I view as having a much greater chance of being solved, and I would put this one in that category because of the DNA evidence. Yeah. You know, if you're simply relying on someone coming forward, well, they've had 30 plus years to do so and they haven't done it. So what is going to cause them to do it now? I don't know what that would be, but DNA technology is advancing all the time. Yeah. So more and more cases are just going to be solved, solved if they have DNA. But that's it for our episode on the murder of Beverly Jay Potter ments. We've got some voicemails give you and check those out. Sarah. Hey, Mike, this is Kathy from Bougainville, Georgia. I was just listening to the latest episode and I was really, really funny. So Mike, what were you doing on March 23rd, three years ago? Could you tell me I was buying my husband's wedding ring at the mall? I know exactly what I did that entire day, but to be like only because I remember I was buying wedding ring. They got married. What said? So funny story and makes it didn't have Kermit yet. I actually had to read while I was doing that, so it is a funny story. Maybe you should have picked a less significant year or something, the everybody off. But it was just a funny coincidence. So say, if you're on time, check in and I'll talk to you honestly. Hey, it is a funny story. I think if I'm going to pick random years, probably 2020 is one to skip. Yeah. Now that I think about it, there's a lot of people going to have recall for that year. Yeah. I mean, if you got a bad case of COVID, you're probably going to remember, yeah, the date and. But that's what it takes. It takes something monumental. Yeah, some type of milestone or monumental. She's buying a wedding ring. That's huge. Now you're buying it four days before the wedding. That's another story. What's going on now? It all worked out. It all worked out. Hey, guys, this is Hannah for Moose Jaw Saskatchewan, formerly from Fort St. John, B.C. I'm actually calling because I was listening to one of your older episodes and heard someone else from my hometown leave a voicemail. It's not a super big or well-known place, so I thought that was pretty cool. I think you guys should look into the case of the Jack family. It's a semi local story for me, and even after 30 years, we still have very little information about the abduction of a whole family. Pretty wild. Thanks for the great show, guys. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. I think you guys got a former T Cat fan club since there's two of you. Yeah, it's enough. That's all you need. You just need more than one person. Exactly. You can have a great club. You can have a fan club by yourself. You could technically. Yeah, maybe I'll start that. Oh, I think you already have your own give me fan club by yourself for yourself. You saw the posters I did. Yeah, I think that was a little much to put posters up all over town. Well, I was trying, but I don't think I've heard of that case gives off to look it out, but I went to that one. Yeah, it sounds like it could be a really good one. A whole family is abducted and nobody really knows. So we'll take a look at it for sure, but appreciate the voicemails. And that is it for another episode of true crime all the time unsolved. So for Mike and gave me stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Dive into true crime on Pluto TV. Unravel the mysteries with forensic files and 48 hours investigate crimes with Dateline 24 seven An Unsolved Mysteries with thousands of free crime movies and TV shows. Pluto TV is the true home of crime. 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